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Where are they in the word of God?

Jimmy It

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I am not any denomination, I am a Christian and saved by grace through Jesus Christ. I am not baptist, catholic, presbyterian, lutheran, or any other. The Roman catholic church was the first church of division period. There is also not one verse in the Bible that discusses denominations. If there is please someone share it.
It kinda reminds me of this,
1 Cor, 3:4
For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

We are "brothers of The Son."
 
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chrisovery

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Alright, then what did Jesus mean when He said "This is My body"? You don't follow any "man traditions", so what does Jesus mean?

-CryptoLutheran
He was talking about the punishment that was brought upon him to save us. He said to drink the wine to remember what he went through for our sake and the last true sacrifice that needed to be made to God for the forgiveness of our sins. It is a way for us to remember He is the only way and the only sacrifice that save us completely.
 
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chrisovery

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Let us talk about traditions made by men in most churches today.
1. Lent
2. Christmas tree- brought about by pagan worship not biblical Christ Christianity.
3. Santa clause- comes with a fake story of a st Nicholas. Also brought by pagan worship.
4. Easter bunny brought to denominations through pagan worship of the goddess that has to do with fertility.

There is a few of the man traditions followed by most churches. I will wait for the response that will come and try to justify the great things of pagan worship and tell me the man made stories of how all of a sudden they are holy in God's eyes.
 
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chrisovery

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The best way to truly learn is alone putting your faith in him and asking him to teach you. Which is one of the reasons I am not into the idea of what church has become. They all want to teach that you need to become a member and learn all of their doctrine from men. I have not found one church in the many and I mean many that I have gone to tell anyone to put faith in God for learning and gaining wisdom. No, they all said the same things, we have to equip you with our teachings or your just not going to learn. Trust in man above God garbage is what ot really boils down to.
 
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B Griffin

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He was talking about the punishment that was brought upon him to save us. He said to drink the wine to remember what he went through for our sake and the last true sacrifice that needed to be made to God for the forgiveness of our sins. It is a way for us to remember He is the only way and the only sacrifice that save us completely.
This is a good start. I would also add to this another thing Jesus said.

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” (Jn 6:53–58)​

When questioned, He gave this explanation:

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Jn 6:63)​

And we read this reaction:

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. (Jn 6:66)​

There is so much to say about this, but it boils down to this: you are what you eat. When you consume Jesus, you also consume the nutrient "eternal life" that only exists in Him. Since the nutrient "eternal life" is not metabolized by the human body, it stays with you forever; hence it is called "eternal" life. Those who do not see past the physical to the spiritual miss the point entirely.
 
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ViaCrucis

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He was talking about the punishment that was brought upon him to save us. He said to drink the wine to remember what he went through for our sake and the last true sacrifice that needed to be made to God for the forgiveness of our sins. It is a way for us to remember He is the only way and the only sacrifice that save us completely.

And who told you that's what it meant?

Because here's what the Bible says it means:

"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a partaking of the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a partaking in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel, are not those who eat the sacrifices partakers of the altar?" - 1 Corinthians 10:17-18

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when He was betrayed took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, 'This is My body, which is for you. Do this for the remembrance of Me.' In the same way also He took the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the New Covenant in My blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, for the remembrance of Me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
" - 1 Corinthians 11:23-29

"I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, 'How can this man give us His flesh to eat?' So Jesus said to them, 'Amen, Amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.'
" - John 6:48-58

So allow me to ask again:

Jesus took bread, broke it, and said of it, "This is My body".

What did He mean by this? Not according to the human traditions you have received, but according to Jesus' own words and the Scriptures themselves.

According to Jesus and the Bible, what does this mean?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chrisovery

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And who told you that's what it meant?

Because here's what the Bible says it means:

"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a partaking of the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a partaking in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel, are not those who eat the sacrifices partakers of the altar?" - 1 Corinthians 10:17-18

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when He was betrayed took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, 'This is My body, which is for you. Do this for the remembrance of Me.' In the same way also He took the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the New Covenant in My blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, for the remembrance of Me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
" - 1 Corinthians 11:23-29

"I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, 'How can this man give us His flesh to eat?' So Jesus said to them, 'Amen, Amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.'
" - John 6:48-58

So allow me to ask again:

Jesus took bread, broke it, and said of it, "This is My body".

What did He mean by this? Not according to the human traditions you have received, but according to Jesus' own words and the Scriptures themselves.

According to Jesus and the Bible, what does this mean?

-CryptoLutheran
God did. What did Jesus mean when he told Peter on this rock I will build my church?
 
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chrisovery

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This is a good start. I would also add to this another thing Jesus said.

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” (Jn 6:53–58)​


When questioned, He gave this explanation:

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Jn 6:63)​

And we read this reaction:

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. (Jn 6:66)​

There is so much to say about this, but it boils down to this: you are what you eat. When you consume Jesus, you also consume the nutrient "eternal life" that only exists in Him. Since the nutrient "eternal life" is not metabolized by the human body, it stays with you forever; hence it is called "eternal" life. Those who do not see past the physical to the spiritual miss the point entirely.
This is a good start. I would also add to this another thing Jesus said.

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” (Jn 6:53–58)​


When questioned, He gave this explanation:

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Jn 6:63)​

And we read this reaction:

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. (Jn 6:66)​

There is so much to say about this, but it boils down to this: you are what you eat. When you consume Jesus, you also consume the nutrient "eternal life" that only exists in Him. Since the nutrient "eternal life" is not metabolized by the human body, it stays with you forever; hence it is called "eternal" life. Those who do not see past the physical to the spiritual miss the point entirely.
Exactly, Jesus. Not denominations, pagan rituals, following what's popular,etc.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How did God tell you this?

What did Jesus mean when he told Peter on this rock I will build my church?

According to the historic interpretations of the Christian Church, Simon bar-Jonah is given the name Peter/Kepha on account of his confession, and that confession is the rock on which the Church is built.

We can see this throughout the writings of the ancient fathers.

That may mean nothing to you, but it does mean something to me.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chrisovery

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How did God tell you this?



According to the historic interpretations of the Christian Church, Simon bar-Jonah is given the name Peter/Kepha on account of his confession, and that confession is the rock on which the Church is built.

We can see this throughout the writings of the ancient fathers.

That may mean nothing to you, but it does mean something to me.

-CryptoLutheran
The rock was not Peter you're right. The rock is Christ the king, the son of God, the messiah, the last lamb sacrifice for our sins.

So how is it since through history that has been the teaching that the catholic church and many of the other Christian divisions came up with Peter started the first church and it was in Rome? Just asking.
 
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chrisovery

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I prayed and then I studied the word. We don't need men's interpretation of the word. We need God's revelation of the word. But many don't believe that because they do not have true faith in Christ. It is easier to tell people everything that makes them feel good rather than the truth when your faith is not there.
 
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Jimmy It

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How did God tell you this?



According to the historic interpretations of the Christian Church, Simon bar-Jonah is given the name Peter/Kepha on account of his confession, and that confession is the rock on which the Church is built.
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

That is correct. God revealed this truth to Peter, and Peter spoke it. “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Christ is the foundation of the Church, He is the beginning, the King, He is our hope, our Savior. Peter was a man.
How is it that some get so confused about this?
 
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chrisovery

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Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

That is correct. God revealed this truth to Peter, and Peter spoke it. “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Christ is the foundation of the Church, He is the beginning, the King, He is our hope, our Savior. Peter was a man.
How is it that some get so confused about this?
What I found really funny is it has been taught for centuries that Peter was the foundation I on of the church and now all of a sudden there are ancient writings from men that claim it was the confession of Peter claiming that chist is the son God. Where have these texts been hiding while so many have been taught and believe that Peter was the rock of the church?
 
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com7fy8

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About Crypto's Post #16, you said >

You kill me. I am a Christian saved by grace. I do not fallow man traditions. I am a movement of Christ not a movement of come to my church and sit in my pews. My church is not in a building with a name. If my faith is an issue with you than pray about it.
Ones claiming to be Lutheran are divided, with more than one group.

And certain ones claiming to be Lutherans, not all, can be very exclusive, like others are not Christians and can't take communion with them unless they are like them. But not all Lutherans are like this.

Meanwhile, I can be very self-righteous, saying how spiritual and right I am because I am not naming a denomination.

Paul seems to say there were ones in division because they were saying "I am of Christ" > I Corinthians 1:12.

Denominations are in the Bible; they are called "divisions" (Romans 16:17); Paul says not to have them. He says he desires "that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (in 1 Corinthians 1:10).

"For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." (2 Corinthians 10:12)

So, Paul does talk about denominations, in the Bible. God's word says God does not approve of divisions.

So, then, the obedient Christians are not divided. However, in my opinion, we can find these obedient and mature ones ministering, right in denominational churches. Sometimes, what has happened is a pastor will grow up and realize he or she is in a denomination, but then the pastor gets into ministering the right way and using the denomination for a place to reach to others. And divisive ones get wise to this and try to get the Biblical pastor removed; but because the pastor is benefitting people there, the pastor has support so he or she can't be put out.

Where I am, the church has an official denominational name, but I don't go with that. But they include me; so I stay and concentrate on ministering for us to be conformed to the image of Jesus (Romans 8:29), and I do not get into much about comparing groups.

Their attention does not seem to constantly get hung up with comparing with other groups, but there is attention to ministering God's word about how to be and how to love like Jesus, what holiness and grace are mainly about.
 
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chrisovery

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About Crypto's Post #16, you said >


Ones claiming to be Lutheran are divided, with more than one group.

And certain ones claiming to be Lutherans, not all, can be very exclusive, like others are not Christians and can't take communion with them unless they are like them. But not all Lutherans are like this.

Meanwhile, I can be very self-righteous, saying how spiritual and right I am because I am not naming a denomination.

Paul seems to say there were ones in division because they were saying "I am of Christ" > I Corinthians 1:12.

Denominations are in the Bible; they are called "divisions" (Romans 16:17); Paul says not to have them. He says he desires "that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (in 1 Corinthians 1:10).

"For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." (2 Corinthians 10:12)

So, Paul does talk about denominations, in the Bible. God's word says God does not approve of divisions.

So, then, the obedient Christians are not divided. However, in my opinion, we can find these obedient and mature ones ministering, right in denominational churches. Sometimes, what has happened is a pastor will grow up and realize he or she is in a denomination, but then the pastor gets into ministering the right way and using the denomination for a place to reach to others. And divisive ones get wise to this and try to get the Biblical pastor removed; but because the pastor is benefitting people there, the pastor has support so he or she can't be put out.

Where I am, the church has an official denominational name, but I don't go with that. But they include me; so I stay and concentrate on ministering for us to be conformed to the image of Jesus (Romans 8:29), and I do not get into much about comparing groups.

Their attention does not seem to constantly get hung up with comparing with other groups, but there is attention to ministering God's word about how to be and how to love like Jesus, what holiness and grace are mainly about.
The claiming is not the division, doctrine, the belief of being saved through anyone outside of Christ that many have believe, teachings such as don't put faith in God for wisdom and revelation to his word. We have to teach you our doctrines made by our founders our doctrine.

One of the biggest lies in just about every church is revival. They claim they want a revival, but they're not preaching for a true revival. They're preaching their church or their pastors and/or their social club. The religiosity is the division.

Sure they all claim Christ died and resurrected from the dead. But that is not the ministry in which they use to save souls. Most Christians in today's world don't have a testimony of where they have been brought out from thanks to Christ offering himself as our sacrifice, physician, father, friend, counselor etc. And if you do have a real testimony with a real troubled past before Christ, many shame you, ignore you, beat you down in many ways without touching you.

There is no zeal of Christ in the hearts of most Christians and those that do have a real zeal are called immature. Basically a manipulative way of telling them that they are not right for having such a zealous heart to preach of their savior.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So how is it since through history that has been the teaching that the catholic church and many of the other Christian divisions came up with Peter started the first church and it was in Rome? Just asking.

I provided an outline of history earlier in this thread. You disregarded it.

Why should I attempt to help you learn something when you have made it clear that you have no interest in learning?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do you think that those who disagree with you aren't doing this too?

I've been on this forum for close to 15 years, before that I had been a member of another forum for nearly 10 years. In close to 25 years of engaging with many different people online I have encountered a countless number of those who effectively claim to have an exclusive monopoly on the truth.

They, and nobody else, has it figured out. They don't always explicitly claim this, they don't usually say "I'm the only one"; but it's clear that in their mind that anyone who doesn't agree with them is merely "following human tradition".

They often will claim that they don't interpret the Bible, they read it and believe it. When asked what is different between them and others who say they "read it and believe it", they will say they prayed, they studied, and some will go so far as to claim that God specifically told them, or gave them true understanding. As though God personally came down from heaven and put the truth directly into their cerebral cortex.

Then, I am often told, that if I pray, if I ask, if I study God would do the same. Of course, not only I, but millions of Christians all around the globe and throughout history have devoted themselves to seeking, knocking, asking; searching and studying, praying--and come to entirely different perspectives and conclusions.

At the end of the day the Holy Spirit can't be contradicting Himself. And yet I've encountered perhaps hundreds of people who say the Holy Spirit has directly given them truth and/or insight; and yet it contradicts what every other person who says the same has said. That begs the question, doesn't it, is it really the Holy Spirit? Of course, it's not the Holy Spirit. What it is is human arrogance.

There is a term I learned from some Eastern Orthodox friends years ago, in Eastern Orthodoxy there is a concept, in Russian it is called prelest and in Greek it is called plani. The most literal translation of these terms would be "fallacy" "error" or "delusion"; but in the Eastern Orthodox context it refers to something more than just delusion or error, but to a dark spiritual delusion. There are countless stories about Orthodox monks who warn about, and also who succumbed, to prelest, spiritual delusion. It is not regarded as a mental error--wrong thinking; but spiritual error, it is a sickness of the soul. A sickness of the soul in which a person becomes deluded by believing they have attained spiritual greatness--having received visions, or dreamed dreams, or having attained theoria, or believing they are holy or are growing spiritually--but it is in fact delusion, a sickness, a shadow has overtaken their hearts and instead of being humble, admitting to being a sinner in need of mercy, there is a false sense of spiritual satisfaction. It is considered one of the most dangerous things that can happen in a Christian journey.

I don't know if we in the Western Church have this same concept, or how we would apply it to our contexts--but I believe that this is a definitely real phenomenon. And it truly is one of the greatest dangers we can face--a false sense of spiritual accomplishment, a false sense of holiness, a false sense of piety, the delusion that we have attained something--but in truth it is actually stagnation. In that delusion we are no longer growing, because to grow in faith we must always be on the receiving end of God's grace; and to be on the receiving end of grace we must be broken--broken with repentance, broken with humility, broken with contrition and confession that we are deep wounded sinners. At no point in this journey of ours, at no point in our cross-carrying pilgrimage in this world, have we "made it". We are, each of us, like the man who was beaten and left for dead on the side of the road; and without our Good Samaritan, Jesus Christ, to carry us to the inn we remain wounded and dying on the side of the road.

I am not spiritual. I am dead and full of sin. God have mercy on me. Lord Jesus save me.

I need the wisdom of God, which the Holy Spirit has so richly blessed His Church with over these last two thousand years. I cannot go it alone, I need God's Village, I need the Church. I need to hear God's word, day in and day out; I need the Sacraments, I need my Baptism and to remember my Baptism; I need the Lord's Supper, I need to confess my sins and hear the lovely healing words of forgiveness. I need it, I can't go it alone, I'm not an island, the hand cannot say to the foot "I don't need you". Jesus said "I am the Vine and you are the branches", without the Body I am an amputated arm, apart from the Vine I am a branch that withers and dies.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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MegChristian

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You are simply being dishonest with yourself here.

I can easily demonstrate that you follow traditions and that your view of Christianity is shaped by ideas of other men.

Jesus took bread at His last supper and said, "This is My body". What did He mean?

-CryptoLutheran
Hello CryptoLutheran, first, I loved your post on denominations at the beginning of this thread. You did a fantastic job of summarizing the history of the growth and fragmentation of the Church at large.

That being said, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that our "view of Christianity is shaped by ideas of other men". In some ways there is some truth to this statement, but I think this is oversimplified. We all turn to someone more advanced as Christians to help us figure out how to make faith work in real life, but some of us, myself in particular, do not seek out a single denominational source for teaching. It has been my experience that if a Christian is reading the Bible for oneself, when we listen to someone teach, we will know how accurate the teacher is. If you know your Bible, that frees a person from depending on one source and opens avenues to seek specific answers to specific questions, something I personally have found very beneficial.
 
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jas3

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I've been on this forum for close to 15 years, before that I had been a member of another forum for nearly 10 years. In close to 25 years of engaging with many different people online I have encountered a countless number of those who effectively claim to have an exclusive monopoly on the truth.
I've found this to be the case as well. It's unfortunate because it's easy to spend a long time and a lot of effort writing detailed responses to things hoping you can help even one person in his spiritual journey, only to have the person you were responding to ignore everything you wrote. There is an unfortunately large number of people who are more interested in airing their own opinions than in having a discussion.

Prelest is a topic I never heard addressed growing up Methodist, but have learned about as I have begun to read more Eastern Orthodox writers in the last few years. It's definitely something that should have more awareness in all Christian circles.
 
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