I will scientifically prove the existence of God to you

[AV1611VET]

Article 11

“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,

 

[AV1611VET]

Presumably you're attempting to say that the gold is under one of the trees but confusingly admitting that we don't know which tree it's under. I believe this is disanalogous as there is no "gold" under any of the trees. My point was that assuming there was "gold" you wouldn't know which one it was under as you seem to understand.

You don't get it, do you?

Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

The devil knows that, if he can bury Christianity under other religions, academia will throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Discussion]

You don't get it, do you?

Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

The devil knows that, if he can bury Christianity under other religions, academia will throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That would be a valid defense if you can prove that Christianity is true but a belief being unfalsifiable makes it a poor one to hold. Why would God even allow the devil to do this?

 

[Discussion]

View attachment 364068

"IN GOD WE TRUST" was first added to US coins in 1864 (88 years after the USA was founded), during the Civil War, in response to rising public calls for a recognition of faith on national symbols. It may be one now but it was not upon its foundation.

 

[AV1611VET]

That would be a valid defense if you can prove that Christianity is true ...

It's already been proven true.

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

... but a belief being unfalsifiable makes it a poor one to hold.

Unfalsifiablity is an academic invention.

Why would God even allow the devil to do this?

I'll let Joseph answer that:

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Read also the book of Job.

 

[AV1611VET]

"IN GOD WE TRUST" was first added to US coins in 1864 (88 years after the USA was founded), during the Civil War, in response to rising public calls for a recognition of faith on national symbols. It may be one now but it was not upon its foundation.

You like documents?

Try this one:

IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid: And by Virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions, and Officers, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general Good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience.

- Mayflower Compact

 

[Discussion]

It's already been proven true.

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

If I believed everything the bible said was true I'd believe in the resurection wouldn't I?

Unfalsifiablity is an academic invention.

I get that religious truths are often considered beyond the realm of science, but don’t you think it makes them harder to talk about or critically assess? I’d be curious to hear how you think we should approach beliefs that can’t be tested or challenged. But believing in an invisible, undetectable dragon living in my garage is unfalsifiable. No matter how much evidence you provide - whether you bring in a team of scientists with infrared cameras or check the garage for any trace of the dragon - if I claim that the dragon is simply invisible to every known method of detection, it’s impossible to prove it wrong. At that point, it’s not about evidence; it’s just a belief that can’t be tested or disproven. And if I can make any claim that is similarly impossible to disprove, then what’s the point of having any meaningful discussion or debate about its truth?

I'll let Joseph answer that:

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Read also the book of Job.

So, if the devil spreading evil is ultimately part of God’s plan for good, doesn’t that create a logical contradiction? If God is all-good and all-powerful, why would He allow evil to exist in the first place? For something to be 'for the greater good,' it would have to be a necessary means to a good end, but that assumes God can't achieve that end without allowing evil to occur. It seems contradictory to say that an all-good and all-powerful God would need evil to bring about good.

 

[Discussion]

You like documents?

Try this one:

IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid: And by Virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions, and Officers, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general Good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience.

- Mayflower Compact

The UK does indeed have a state religion, as someone from London I wasn't aware Americans were proud of their British history, always seemed like they were happy to be rid of us.

 

[AV1611VET]

If I believed everything the bible said was true I'd believe in the resurection wouldn't I?

I pray you will -- today.

I get that religious truths are often considered beyond the realm of science, but don’t you think it makes them harder to talk about or critically assess?

Absolutely.

Science is myopic and can't begin to address the miracles documented within the pages of the Bible.

I’d be curious to hear how you think we should approach beliefs that can’t be tested or challenged.

By faith.

But believing in an invisible, undetectable dragon living in my garage is unfalsifiable. No matter how much evidence you provide - whether you bring in a team of scientists with infrared cameras or check the garage for any trace of the dragon - if I claim that the dragon is simply invisible to every known method of detection, it’s impossible to prove it wrong. At that point, it’s not about evidence; it’s just a belief that can’t be tested or disproven. And if I can make any claim that is similarly impossible to disprove, then what’s the point of having any meaningful discussion or debate about its truth?

Did that "invisible, undetectable dragon living in your garage" produce any of these:

1. the Bible
2. time divided into BC & AD
3. organizations such as the Red Cross and Salvation Army
4. hospitals built by Christian organizations
5. Christian artwork, edifices, statuary, and literature
6. IN GOD WE TRUST on our coins
7. UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance
8. the Ten Commandments and other literature displayed in public
9. Christmas & Easter
10. symbols on bumper stickers and flags
11. public debates in the name of Christianity
12. crosses and billboards erected to testify of Jesus Christ
13. two major nations founded on His existence
14. martyrs
15. Christians & Jews

 

[AV1611VET]

The UK does indeed have a state religion, as someone from London I wasn't aware Americans were proud of their British history, always seemed like they were happy to be rid of us.

We turned our backs on DIVINE RIGHT OF KINGS in favor of CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.

And if God doesn't exist, where do GOD SAVE THE KING and GOD SAVE THE QUEEN come from?

Someone's imagination?

 

[Discussion]

We turned our backs on DIVINE RIGHT OF KINGS in favor of CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.

And if God doesn't exist, where do GOD SAVE THE KING and GOD SAVE THE QUEEN come from?

Someone's imagination?

Well more like from the primary religion of the country but I'm decidedly unpatriotic so I don't really care. Glad the USA shifted away from the divine right of kings and to a non religious system of governance.

 

[Discussion]

I pray you will -- today.

Aww thanks, I hope that if God exists he reveals himself to me too, eternal torment would be a bit rubbish at least 70–80 billion people will be there with me (number of non-christians in history rough estimate).

Absolutely.

Science is myopic and can't begin to address the miracles documented within the pages of the Bible.

Because it's completly unreproducable and you just have to believe it was done by God (hopefully not the devil).

Did that "invisible, undetectable dragon living in your garage" produce any of these:

1. the Bible
2. time divided into BC & AD
3. organizations such as the Red Cross and Salvation Army
4. hospitals built by Christian organizations
5. Christian artwork, edifices, statuary, and literature
6. IN GOD WE TRUST on our coins
7. UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance
8. the Ten Commandments and other literature displayed in public
9. Christmas & Easter
10. symbols on bumper stickers and flags
11. public debates in the name of Christianity
12. crosses and billboards erected to testify of Jesus Christ
13. two major nations founded on His existence
14. martyrs
15. Christians & Jews

The point of the dragon analogy isn't to compare the impact of belief, but to ask how we justify believing in something that can't be tested. A belief can lead to real-world effects without necessarily being true.

You’re absolutely right that Christianity has had a huge historical and cultural impact. But lots of influential things aren't necessarily true. Astrology shaped entire civilisations. That doesn’t mean it accurately predicts the future.

Also by the logic you are using does that mean other religions are also true? Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism have also inspired vast bodies of literature, art, hospitals, holidays, and martyrs. If cultural impact equals truth, we end up with many conflicting truths.

Additionally are you saying if a belief system leads people to build hospitals, art, and charitable institutions, does that make the belief true? Or just influential? Would you say the same about communism, nationalism, or even Scientology?

You should also consider how much of what you listed - like coins, flags, or even Christmas - are decisions made by people, often centuries after Jesus. They reflect human institutions and politics, not necessarily divine truth.

Finally; I wasn’t denying the cultural significance of Christianity. I was asking how we should approach beliefs that can't be falsified. If we don't have a way to test or challenge them, how do we ever tell if they’re likely to be true or not?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well more like from the primary religion of the country but I'm decidedly unpatriotic so I don't really care.

But your "patriotism" in academia was noticed by your parliament, wasn't it?

And a principle of academics* wasn't too popular all of a sudden, was it?

* Law of Supply and Demand

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Did that "invisible, undetectable dragon living in your garage" produce any of these:

1. the Bible
2. time divided into BC & AD
3. organizations such as the Red Cross and Salvation Army
4. hospitals built by Christian organizations
5. Christian artwork, edifices, statuary, and literature
6. IN GOD WE TRUST on our coins
7. UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance
8. the Ten Commandments and other literature displayed in public
9. Christmas & Easter
10. symbols on bumper stickers and flags
11. public debates in the name of Christianity
12. crosses and billboards erected to testify of Jesus Christ
13. two major nations founded on His existence
14. martyrs
15. Christians & Jews

No, and neither did "God". All of these things are inventions of PEOPLE.

 

[AV1611VET]

Aww thanks, I hope that if God exists he reveals himself to me too,

How?

What specifically would convince you that academia couldn't address?

 

[AV1611VET]

No, and neither did "God". All of these things are inventions of PEOPLE.

People being obedient to their Being.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

People being obedient to their Being.

So say the PEOPLE.

 

[AV1611VET]

So say the PEOPLE.

Anyone can say anything.

What say you though, when they put their feet to what their mouths are saying?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

My bad I must have misread, I had thought Isreal but I couldn't think of the second one as:
Treaty of Tripoli 1797

Drafted by Ambassador Joel Barlow (March 24, 1754 – December 26, 1812) who was an American poet and Jeffersonian republican.

Ratified 1797 unanimously by the Senate with NO OBJECTION as to language.

Signed 1798 by President John Adams

Article 11

“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religious or tranquility of Musselmen, and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

By the time of replying, you'll have probably seen by now that AV does not care for historical facts.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Anyone can say anything.

Um, yeah. That's my point.

What say you though, when they put their feet to what their mouths are saying?

That they believe what they say. So did the 9/11 hijackers and suicide bombers. I guess that proves Islam is true!