Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

[Spiritual Jew]

You believe that we self-graft? That is just not possible.

What are you talking about?

We repent because we have been grafted into the vine.

Where is that taught?

But beware because we can be pruned off the vine also.

Uh huh.

You believe that we can self-resurrect from being dead to God? That is just not possible. Study the parable of the lost sheep.

You don't seem to understand what it means to be dead in sins. It simply means to be separated spiritually from God. Being dead in sins is not a lack of consciousness or awareness of sin. Even when our bodies die that does not mean we are not conscious. It is a separation of the dead body from the conscious soul and spirit.

Are you aware that Jesus taught that sinners are sick and in need of a physician? Do you know the difference between being spiritually dead in sins and being spiritually sick?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Can a sick person acknowledge that they are sick while seeking healing from the physician? Yes, right? So, sinners who are spiritually sick can acknowledge their spiritual sickness while answering the call to repentance and acknowledging their need to be healed by the physician.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is a "generic we", not a reference to "Paul and Timothy". Paul never ever indicated that he thought of himself as one who's faith in Christ was susceptible to failing.

What you’re saying is that Paul wrote that statement to Timothy while he was explaining the importance of perseverance to him but that statement had absolutely nothing to do with him. Why make such a statement in a personal letter to a believer if it has absolutely nothing to do with them? What you’re saying is that this statement was referring to someone else, except Paul never mentions anyone else in the discussion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus does not say, "Apart from me you can't bear fruit." While that may be true it does not make the other untrue. Romans 9:16 make this very clear.

Actually that’s exactly what He said in verse 4.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus does not say, "Apart from me you can't bear fruit." While that may be true it does not make the other untrue. Romans 9:16 make this very clear.

Romans 9 is about God shifting His covenant from the Jews to the Gentiles. It has nothing to do with individual salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

2 "He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful." How does this show fruit bearing branches unconnected to the vine????

That’s not what I said. I said that not all branches that are attached to Christ will bear fruit. Some will not bear fruit and will be cut off by The Father.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No one can accept or understand the Gospel without a level of spiritual discernment. Spiritual discernment is how we know we are sinners in the first place.

That’s not true sinners know that they are sinners before coming to Christ. They just don’t care that they are sinners. And you’re idea that no one can accept the gospel without spiritual discernment is not supported anywhere in scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You believe that we self-graft? That is just not possible. We repent because we have been grafted into the vine. But beware because we can be pruned off the vine also.

You believe that we can self-resurrect from being dead to God? That is just not possible. Study the parable of the lost sheep.

No we are joined to Christ after we believe. The scriptures show God trying to save people who refuse to repent.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Right after Jesus said this to people who were seeking to kill Him, He said this.

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?””
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭39‬-‭47‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The scriptures clearly indicate that Jesus was trying to save these men and because they are unwilling to believe Him, Moses will be their accuser on Judgement Day.

 

[B Griffin]

What you’re saying is that Paul wrote that statement to Timothy while he was explaining the importance of perseverance to him but that statement had absolutely nothing to do with him. Why make such a statement in a personal letter to a believer if it has absolutely nothing to do with them? What you’re saying is that this statement was referring to someone else, except Paul never mentions anyone else in the discussion.

It's a pastoral letter. He wasn't talking about himself and Timothy. The immediate context of those words show that he was discussing the people Timothy was ministering to. If we zoom out to the preceding and following passages we would find the same thing.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

11 This is a faithful saying:​

​

For if we died with Him,​

We shall also live with Him.​

12 If we endure,​

We shall also reign with Him.​

If we deny Him,​

He also will deny us.​

13 If we are faithless,​

He remains faithful;​

He cannot deny Himself.​

​

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.​

​

The New King James Version (2 Ti 2:10–14). (1982). Thomas Nelson.​

The quoted passage in the middle (vss 11-13) is about the ones they are trying to reach with the gospel. Whoever dies with Him lives with Him. Whoever endures reigns with Him. Whoever denies Him gets denied by Him. Whoever is without faith toward Him doesn't affect Him because He remains to be trustworthy and He cannot deny Himself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's a pastoral letter. He wasn't talking about himself and Timothy. The immediate context of those words show that he was discussing the people Timothy was ministering to. If we zoom out to the preceding and following passages we would find the same thing.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

11 This is a faithful saying:​

​

For if we died with Him,​

We shall also live with Him.​

12 If we endure,​

We shall also reign with Him.​

If we deny Him,​

He also will deny us.​

13 If we are faithless,​

He remains faithful;​

He cannot deny Himself.​

​

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.​

​

The New King James Version (2 Ti 2:10–14). (1982). Thomas Nelson.​

The quoted passage in the middle (vss 11-13) is about the ones they are trying to reach with the gospel. Whoever dies with Him lives with Him. Whoever endures reigns with Him. Whoever denies Him gets denied by Him. Whoever is without faith toward Him doesn't affect Him because He remains to be trustworthy and He cannot deny Himself.

No you started in the middle of the message which is why your quote begins with the word “Therefore”. Start from the beginning.

“Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Who is Paul telling to “Remember Jesus Christ”? He’s telling Timothy to remember Jesus Christ because throughout the entire beginning of the chapter his whole message is about telling Timothy to persevere in the faith.

“You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Everything Paul has said here are specific instructions written to Timothy. His statements in verses 11-13 are echoing that same message to “Remember Jesus Christ” and he tells Timothy to remind the elect as well. Timothy and Paul are not excluded from the statements given in verses 11-13. Paul didn’t write “If THEY deny Him” he wrote “if WE deny Him”. If WE have died, if WE endure, if WE deny Him, not THEY. All of these conditions don’t only apply to the elect but not to Paul and Timothy. Paul and Timothy are just as elect as all the rest. Why would these conditions apply to the elect but not to Paul and Timothy? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The point is that those spiritually immature "babes in Christ" that Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 3 are carnal and have the same kind of understanding as the natural man. They are not getting their understanding through the Holy Spirit so they are said to still be sipping spiritual milk and are not ready for solid spiritual food. They don't understand the deeper things of God that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 2 which is the same as the solid spiritual food that he talks about in 1 Corinthians 3.

Yet, those babes in Christ do understand the gospel. You are trying to say that the natural man who doesn't get understanding from the Holy Spirit can't understand the gospel. But, those babes in Christ were also not getting their understanding from the Holy Spirit and that's why Paul said they were carnal and not spiritual. Despite that, they could understand the gospel. So can the natural man. It's the deeper things, the solid spiritual food, that both the natural man and carnal babes in Christ are not able to grasp.

Amen that’s the whole point of why Paul wrote this to them in 1 Corinthians 2:14-16. It was to indicate to them that if they are not setting their mind on the things of the Spirit they cannot discern spiritual matters. He obviously wasn’t telling them that they can’t believe the gospel because they were already believers even though they didn’t have spiritual discernment. The fact that these Corinthians were believers and didn’t have spiritual discernment proves that a person doesn’t have to have spiritual discernment in order to believe the gospel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is there some reason why you don't answer my questions?

I asked "Is He saying we can literally do nothing without Him?" and I guess your answer is yes? So, we can't even sin without Him, either? How far do you take this? The context in John 15 is that we can't bear fruit without Him, not that we literally can't do anything at all without Him.

Jesus specifically said exactly what they can’t do without Him in verse 4 right before the verse MercyShown is quoting.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

It’s obvious that He’s referring to bearing fruit BECAUSE NOBODY IS EVER ATTACHED TO THE VINE (Christ) BEFORE THEY BELIEVE THE GOSPEL! Seriously? People are attached to Christ before they believe the gospel? That’s not biblical at all. You’re absolutely right. People who advocate for eternal security always struggle with these passages because that have no idea what they are saying because when they read these verses they automatically say to themselves “this can’t be saying what it appears to be saying because that would contradict the doctrine of eternal security”. I know this because that’s exactly what I used to say when I believed in it. So they skip over these verses and chalk them up and something they just don’t understand because they can’t reconcile them with their doctrine, and by doing this they allow their doctrines to dictate the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to dictate their doctrines. It’s EXTREMELY RARE that anyone is actually willing to step back and reevaluate their entire theology. It was hard for me to do but after doing a lot of research on the early church writings and early church history I couldn’t ignore the evidence. OSAS wasn’t taught in the early church, there’s no evidence of it in any of the apostolic churches, it didn’t exist before the 16th century and has been rejected by all of the apostolic churches.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is a "generic we", not a reference to "Paul and Timothy". Paul never ever indicated that he thought of himself as one who's faith in Christ was susceptible to failing.

Ok so you just quoted verses 10-14 where Paul is referring to the elect. What makes Paul and Timothy any different from the rest of the elect?

 

[BNR32FAN]

We can't exists without him. That is the point. The question you ask based on the false premise that we have an existence apart from God. Nothing exists without God. In that sense we could not even sin without God for we would not exists.

That’s not even close to what Jesus was saying to His 11 faithful apostles in John 15:5. Do you think Jesus was telling them that they can’t even exist apart from Him in that message? He just said in verse 4

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB 1995

Then He said in verse 5

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you really think He’s talking about their existence here?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You believe that we self-graft? That is just not possible. We repent because we have been grafted into the vine. But beware because we can be pruned off the vine also.

You believe that we can self-resurrect from being dead to God? That is just not possible. Study the parable of the lost sheep.

No that’s not what he said at all. He said “we become connected to the vine after we repent and believe”. He didn’t say we connect ourselves, he said we become connected. We become connected by God after we repent and believe.

 

[Mercy Shown]

No that’s not what he said at all. He said “we become connected to the vine after we repent and believe”. He didn’t say we connect ourselves, he said we become connected. We become connected by God after we repent and believe.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Yes, true repentance involves the Holy Spirit revealing our sinfulness to us and we turn from it by the power of Christ who grafts us into the vine. But even true repentance does not originate from us.

When a person opens their heart to the influence of God's Spirit, their conscience becomes more aware, and they begin to understand how deep and sacred God's law truly is. This law is the foundation of everything—both in heaven and on earth. The light that shines on every person who enters the world, as mentioned in John 1:9, begins to shine into the hidden corners of the soul, revealing things that were once kept in the dark.

As this happens, a deep sense of conviction starts to take hold. The person begins to grasp the righteousness of God and feels the weight of standing, guilty and unclean, before the One who knows every part of them. At the same time, they see the love of God, the beauty of a holy life, and the joy that comes with purity. And in their heart, they begin to long for cleansing and to be brought back into close relationship with God.

 

[Mercy Shown]

That’s not even close to what Jesus was saying to His 11 faithful apostles in John 15:5. Do you think Jesus was telling them that they can’t even exist apart from Him in that message? He just said in verse 4

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB 1995

Then He said in verse 5

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you really think He’s talking about their existence here?

Jesus is all inclusive. Every specific word he spoke had layers of meaning to be revealed by study in the Holy Spirit. When Jesus said, without me you can do nothing, that included truly repenting which is my point. It is a mistake to believe that we can truly repent on our own without Christ. Davids prayer in Ps. 51:1-14 is a great example of true repentance.

The kind of repentance being described here isn't something we can create on our own. It's a gift that comes from Christ—the one who ascended to heaven and gave spiritual gifts to humanity.

This is where many people get confused and, because of that, miss out on the help Christ is ready to offer. They think they have to repent before they can come to Him—that repentance is something they must do first in order to be forgiven. It's true that repentance comes before forgiveness, because only someone who feels truly sorry and humbled will recognize their need for a Savior. But does that mean a person has to wait until they’ve repented before coming to Jesus? Should repentance become a barrier that stands between the sinner and the Savior?

The Bible doesn’t teach that. In fact, Jesus says, “Come to Me, all of you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). It’s the power of Christ working in us that leads us to true repentance in the first place. The apostle Peter explained this clearly when he told the people of Israel that God raised Jesus to be our Leader and Savior so He could give repentance and forgiveness (Acts 5:31).

Just as we can't be forgiven without Jesus, we also can't truly repent without His Spirit waking up our conscience.

Jesus is the source of every good impulse we have. He's the only one who can plant a deep hatred of sin in our hearts. Every time we feel drawn toward truth or purity, every time we feel the weight of our own wrongdoing—those are signs that His Spirit is already at work within us.

 

[Mercy Shown]

No we are joined to Christ after we believe. The scriptures show God trying to save people who refuse to repent.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Right after Jesus said this to people who were seeking to kill Him, He said this.

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?””
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭39‬-‭47‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The scriptures clearly indicate that Jesus was trying to save these men and because they are unwilling to believe Him, Moses will be their accuser on Judgement Day.

Yes, salvation is from God, from start to finish. Praise be to Him. The part we play in it all is whether or not we will submit to God.

 

[Mercy Shown]

That’s not true sinners know that they are sinners before coming to Christ. They just don’t care that they are sinners. And you’re idea that no one can accept the gospel without spiritual discernment is not supported anywhere in scripture.

Let me clarify my point.

Many people don’t fully understand what true repentance really is. A lot of people feel sorry for their sins, and some even change their behavior outwardly—not because they truly regret doing wrong, but because they’re afraid of the consequences. That’s not the kind of repentance the Bible talks about. Their sorrow is more about avoiding pain than turning away from sin itself.

For example, Esau was heartbroken when he realized he had permanently lost his birthright, but he wasn’t truly sorry for the choices he made. Balaam, when confronted by an angel with a drawn sword, admitted he had done wrong—but only because he feared for his life. His heart hadn’t really changed. He didn’t hate the sin, and he wasn’t committed to living differently.

Judas Iscariot, after betraying Jesus, said, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood” (Matthew 27:4). But this confession came from a place of deep guilt and fear of judgment, not from a heart broken by the fact that he had betrayed the pure and holy Son of God. Pharaoh also admitted his sin during the plagues in Egypt, but only to stop the suffering. As soon as the plagues ended, he went right back to resisting God. In each of these cases, people regretted the consequences of their actions, not the sin itself.

But true repentance is different. When someone opens their heart to God's Spirit, their conscience is awakened. They begin to understand how serious and sacred God's law is—the very foundation of His rule in heaven and on earth. The light of Christ, which shines on every person who comes into the world (John 1:9), begins to shine into the hidden places of the heart, revealing what’s been kept in the dark.

As that light shines, conviction begins to grow. The person starts to sense God’s righteousness and feels the weight of standing before Him while still guilty and unclean. But at the same time, they begin to see God’s love, the beauty of a holy life, and the deep joy that comes from living in purity. This stirs up a deep longing to be made clean and to be brought back into close relationship with God.

In the end it is not sin that condemns us it is what or whom we love (See John 3:19)

 

[Mercy Shown]

That’s not what I said. I said that not all branches that are attached to Christ will bear fruit. Some will not bear fruit and will be cut off by The Father.

Sorry, for the misread. This could be a whole thread in itself but suffice it to say, branches are cut off.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Actually that’s exactly what He said in verse 4.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No, he said, "Apart from me you can do nothing." The broad implications of this are seen through out scripture as I have posted before. It is true in this specific case but it is true in the broader context of our Christian walk. Unless you disagree that we are not to be totally dependent upon Christ, I think we can both agree that whiout Christ we can do nothing.