Did God forget Luke 14:28-32?

[David Lamb]

There's a clear and over riding principle involved with such statements from God.

God is so powerful He can make good come of evil. So does the existence of evil bother God? Nope. Hard thing to keep in mind for us when directly experiencing evil.

But the notions of God not being able to be in the presence of sinners or not able to create and use evil is utter nonsense when keeping His Greatness in the forefront.

IF for example God is Great enough to use the powers of evil and death to make not only good, but perfect come about, THEN He is a Worthy God indeed. And I expect this will be proved out in the fullness of time.

God can literally KILL and make ALIVE

Yes, I agree that God can bring good out of evil. But the fact that God can bring good out of evil things does not make those evil things good. In the last verse of Genesis 1 we have God seeing everything that He had created, including Satan, and judging all of it "very good." You seem to be saying that He didn't really mean that everything was very good, but that He could bring good out of it. That seems to me to be reading more into the verse than is there.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yes, I agree that God can bring good out of evil. But the fact that God can bring good out of evil things does not make those evil things good.

I would disagree. IF for example we experience hope by exposure to the power of evil, then evil has served its purposes to foster something good. It is then nothing more than a temporal tool to bring about a lasting and worthy trait.

Hope is a Godly Eternal characteristic. As is endurance. As is toleration. So many categories are served by this exposure to evil, as dire and awful as it is. Evil then is merely a temporary tool deployed in a temporary setting.

1 Cor. 13
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

God has literally bound us all, in the flesh, to evil. There is no getting around this fact as this fact of evil erupts and ruptures in our world, continually.

The notions that God is detached and not in direct participation "within us" in these matters is also false doctrine.

 

[David Lamb]

I would disagree. IF for example we experience hope by exposure to the power of evil, then evil has served its purposes to foster something good. It is then nothing more than a temporal tool to bring about a lasting and worthy trait.

Hope is a Godly Eternal characteristic. As is endurance. As is toleration. So many categories are served by this exposure to evil, as dire and awful as it is. Evil then is merely a temporary tool deployed in a temporary setting.

1 Cor. 13
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

God has literally bound us all, in the flesh, to evil. There is no getting around this fact as this fact of evil erupts and ruptures in our world, continually.

The notions that God is detached and not in direct participation "within us" in these matters is also false doctrine.

Yes, good can come out of evil at God's good pleasure, but that does not make the evil itself good, only the outcome. This discussion started when you wrote that Satan is never called holy in the bible. He isn't called holy, but as a created being, at the very start, he would have been included in the "everything" that God had made, and God had seen was very good. If he wasn't good to start with, how could he have been in heaven with his fellow angels and God Himself?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

but that does not make the evil itself good

As Jesus reminded us, no one is good, but God

This discussion started when you wrote that Satan is never called holy in the bible. He isn't called holy, but as a created being

The nature of an antiLife spirit, which devils are, might not classify like any other common created thing or power. There are different categories within the creation sphere and an antiLife creation, a literal destroyer, does bring a unique flavor to the contemplation.

Can the antiLife be termed a creation? Yes, but in a totally unique category. Definitely not like a Holy angel or people, animals, or life forms in general. The O.T. terms evil in the "power" category. A created power that happens to have various terms attached, serpent/dragon/Satan/the devil etc. And these power agents can and do speak and act out, particularly "in people." Strange, ain't it?

he would have been included in the "everything" that God had made, and God had seen was very good.

You seem to have gotten stuck in the above. Nothing is good apart from God's over riding hands. God is directly involved with everything. Yet no thing is necessarily God. Another interesting contemplation.

Was any given thing in the protology account very good? Absolutely not. There was adverse workings, obviously, in the Garden and these adverse workings did definitely play out therein. The power of evil, temptaions, deceptions, evil, all right there in the garden.

And I would add that God never had any intentions of leaving His son, Adam, stalled out in a walking wet dust pile for eternity. The natural man was definitely slated to DIE and Satan was that power intended to kill that dust pile. 1 Cor. 15 tells us a principle involved with God. That there is first, the natural. And after, the spiritual. Adam, the natural man was doomed to fail from the beginning.

Notions that Adam would have lived forever in bliss in the garden had he and Eve not sinned are also false doctrines.
The natural man was doomed to temporary existence from the instant God spoke him into existence.

If he wasn't good to start with, how could he have been in heaven with his fellow angels and God Himself?

Again, the notions that any given thing in the garden must be or had to be very good is false. There are obviously not good things there, and in creation itself, from the beginning. Without God in charge of it all, nothing would qualify as very good.

Speaking from a technical, eternal position, there is in fact Only God. IF there is any very good, it is only because God takes pleasure in His Creation. I might observe for example that God will take pleasure in using evil, making good come about because of the uses of it, and destroy it in the finale. Very Good! Obviously, as it plays out in time.

There never was a holy angel that went bad and turned into Satan by evil decisions and actions. That is a fairy tale that doesn't exist in the scriptures.

And when you say how can Satan exist in heaven with Holy Angels, the more astute way to say the same thing is how can evil exist where there is a Perfect Holy God?

And the answer to that aspect is fairly easy. No thing in creation is Perfect. God can and does create and use all things for His Sole Pleasure. This is an exercise of God's Mercy, without same no thing would even exist. So creation serves His Exercise and deployment of very real DIVINE MERCY which by the way is eternal and necessary.

 

[David Lamb]

As Jesus reminded us, no one is good, but God

The nature of an antiLife spirit, which devils are, might not classify like any other common created thing or power. There are different categories within the creation sphere and an antiLife creation, a literal destroyer, does bring a unique flavor to the contemplation.

Can the antiLife be termed a creation? Yes, but in a totally unique category. Definitely not like a Holy angel or people, animals, or life forms in general. The O.T. terms evil in the "power" category. A created power that happens to have various terms attached, serpent/dragon/Satan/the devil etc. And these power agents can and do speak and act out, particularly "in people." Strange, ain't it?

You seem to have gotten stuck in the above. Nothing is good apart from God's over riding hands. God is directly involved with everything. Yet no thing is necessarily God. Another interesting contemplation.

Was any given thing in the protology account very good? Absolutely not. There was adverse workings, obviously, in the Garden and these adverse workings did definitely play out therein. The power of evil, temptaions, deceptions, evil, all right there in the garden.

And I would add that God never had any intentions of leaving His son, Adam, stalled out in a walking wet dust pile for eternity. The natural man was definitely slated to DIE and Satan was that power intended to kill that dust pile. 1 Cor. 15 tells us a principle involved with God. That there is first, the natural. And after, the spiritual. Adam, the natural man was doomed to fail from the beginning.

Notions that Adam would have lived forever in bliss in the garden had he and Eve not sinned are also false doctrines.
The natural man was doomed to temporary existence from the instant God spoke him into existence.



Again, the notions that any given thing in the garden must be or had to be very good is false. There are obviously not good things there, and in creation itself, from the beginning. Without God in charge of it all, nothing would qualify as very good.

Speaking from a technical, eternal position, there is in fact Only God. IF there is any very good, it is only because God takes pleasure in His Creation. I might observe for example that God will take pleasure in using evil, making good come about because of the uses of it, and destroy it in the finale. Very Good! Obviously, as it plays out in time.

There never was a holy angel that went bad and turned into Satan by evil decisions and actions. That is a fairy tale that doesn't exist in the scriptures.

And when you say how can Satan exist in heaven with Holy Angels, the more astute way to say the same thing is how can evil exist where there is a Perfect Holy God?

And the answer to that aspect is fairly easy. No thing in creation is Perfect. God can and does create and use all things for His Sole Pleasure. This is an exercise of God's Mercy, without same no thing would even exist. So creation serves His Exercise and deployment of very real DIVINE MERCY which by the way is eternal and necessary.

I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" on this matter. I agree when you say that "Notions that Adam would have lived forever in bliss in the garden had he and Eve not sinned are also false doctrines." That must be so, because we read in the New Testament that God already had salvation in mind before the foundation of the world:

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:4 NKJV)

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The Satan and devils as "fallen HOLY angels" is a myth that doesn't exist in the scriptures.

Satan (or his own) is never once stated as "holy" in the Bible.

Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. John 8:44. As are his children.

And these characters, these antiChrist spirit enemies of Christ will be put in the LoF at their termination of uses and won't be getting out, other than by the deceived imaginations and add on's of some universalist sects

I think Genesis 6 is all about fallen angels and they mated with women and their offspring were the mighty men of old , half human half angel. When we say angel it’s really only a title they are heavily creatures. Enoch even though not what we call canon talked all about this stuff. As far as Jesus saying in John 8:44 what does that mean because he also said that the Pharisees father was the devil and that is not literal, so was Jesus being literal or not ? I believe that the rightly dividing the word of truth is for us to figure out what is literal and what is literal metaphorical, or literal poetry, or literal apocalyptic writing. The scripture is full of these and our job is to try to get as close to what God intended for us to know him. Most of our differences are because God did not give us scripture that was so clear that no one could think differently. As a Christian Universal Redemption guy this is no big deal to me , God has a kingdom and he doesn’t send anyone to an “eternal hell” God doesn’t do abandonment, he is arranging his creation just as he wants and we get to be part of that , are we going to be part of his kingdom or subjects of that kingdom , it’s all up to us we have free will of our lives and God honor our choices in life. Like the proverb says ( it’s Gods glory to hide a matter and men’s honor to search it out ) that’s a paraphrase. This time in the mortal body is one big test for us as God is creating his kingdom.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" on this matter. I agree when you say that "Notions that Adam would have lived forever in bliss in the garden had he and Eve not sinned are also false doctrines." That must be so, because we read in the New Testament that God already had salvation in mind before the foundation of the world:

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:4 NKJV)

I will throw another option in the mix- I believe that Gid being God that he could not offer a possibility that is impossible, that would be deceiving his creation and that is not in Gods nature to deceive. I think that the idea that Adam and Eve would live forever in the earth with earthly bodies was a real possibility but God knew that because of free will they would not chose that , but that doesn’t make the possibility false. Just like when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey, if the Jews would have accepted him as king , his kingdom would have started that day. They reject him as God knew they would but it was still a legitimate choice, otherwise God would be a deceiver and that’s not his nature. Yes he knows the choice they would make , Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world but the choice is real. Just as we have the choice to follow Jesus in the mortal body or live for self , the choice is real , and God knowing what we would choose honors our choice.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I would disagree. IF for example we experience hope by exposure to the power of evil, then evil has served its purposes to foster something good. It is then nothing more than a temporal tool to bring about a lasting and worthy trait.

Hope is a Godly Eternal characteristic. As is endurance. As is toleration. So many categories are served by this exposure to evil, as dire and awful as it is. Evil then is merely a temporary tool deployed in a temporary setting.

1 Cor. 13
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

God has literally bound us all, in the flesh, to evil. There is no getting around this fact as this fact of evil erupts and ruptures in our world, continually.

The notions that God is detached and not in direct participation "within us" in these matters is also false doctrine.

If we are to have free will, we must have evil. Without evil there is no choice, and we need choices in order to have free will. But because God wanted us to choose him from free will , he would have to allow evil ( what ever that is ) and it would bring in much pain and destruction, that is why Jesus dies on the cross , God allowed evil to come in and because he can do nothing out of love , he must pay the price of his allowing evil in and that is what God and Jesus did they bore sin, Jesus became sin however that is I don’t understand. That’s why scripture says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world. This is Gods plan all along. He will get his kingdom and Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for , now we get to choose will we die to self and be part of that kingdom or will we live for self and be a subject of that kingdom.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" on this matter. I agree when you say that "Notions that Adam would have lived forever in bliss in the garden had he and Eve not sinned are also false doctrines." That must be so, because we read in the New Testament that God already had salvation in mind before the foundation of the world:

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:4 NKJV)

I cited 1 Cor. 15:42-46 on the above showing that God never had long term intentions for natural man.

The spirit, God's child as Adam was/is was never the same as the dust body Adam inhabited.

I would make the sole distinction, exception and difference with Jesus and His undefiled body/mind

All other people were/are planted in weakness, dishonor and corruption in a natural body that dies, exactly as Paul wrote

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I don't see how "fallen angels" has any relevance. Yes, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. BUT not all of those bowing and confessing will be doing so gladly.

Hello my brother Der Alte. Concerning Philippians 2:10-11, I’m interested in how you can agree, all will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord, yet you believe the goats in Matthew 25 are sent to an eternal fire? Or, how does Jesus tell some in Matthew 13 he never knew them. Or, in John 3:16 how are some perishing eternally? Just looking to understand how you reconcile acknowledging all bowing and confessing, yet you believe, I think, that the vast majority of mankind will be suffering eternally in hell?

An interesting observation I have made when it comes to Philippians 2:10-11. Without exception, every proponent of ECT I have spoken with on these verses, always seems to perceive and assume the bowing and confessing is forced. Why? There is nothing in the surrounding context that remotely suggests it will be forced. I believe this has to do with what Jeff Saunders mentioned about through what lens you are viewing Scripture. God IS Spirit. God IS Light. God IS Love. This is His essence … like Jeff, this is the lens through which I view and interpret the Scriptures.

Why is it so difficult to think that God will have all bowing and confessing willingly? Is it not plausible that they are captivated by being in the presence of His pure love and beholding the majesty of His Son? The context is about the selflessness of Jesus, His servants heart and humility; and encouraging those believers to have the same mind of The Christ. Nothing in this chapter even remotely hints at a forced confession.

Did you not bow and confess willingly after being shown from the Scriptures the depth of Love your God has for you? Why would it be any different for the rest of humanity? Certainly you don’t think God is going to force confessions, like making someone “cry uncle” and then send them away to hell.

blessings

Side note: brother, I resent you that excerpt on John 3:16 again. Have you not received it? Perhaps check your junk mail or even your deleted files. I double checked the email address so you should have it.

 

[johansen]

i have not found any evidence that God is going to force anyone to do anything.

I would disagree. IF for example we experience hope by exposure to the power of evil, then evil has served its purposes to foster something good. It is then nothing more than a temporal tool to bring about a lasting and worthy trait.

this presumption requires that Evil had a purpose.

it didn't... except to kill steal and destroy.

 

[Der Alte]

Hello my brother Der Alte. Concerning Philippians 2:10-11, I’m interested in how you can agree, all will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord, yet you believe the goats in Matthew 25 are sent to an eternal fire? Or, how does Jesus tell some in Matthew 13 he never knew them. Or, in John 3:16 how are some perishing eternally? Just looking to understand how you reconcile acknowledging all bowing and confessing, yet you believe, I think, that the vast majority of mankind will be suffering eternally in hell?

An interesting observation I have made when it comes to Philippians 2:10-11. Without exception, every proponent of ECT I have spoken with on these verses, always seems to perceive and assume the bowing and confessing is forced. Why? There is nothing in the surrounding context that remotely suggests it will be forced. I believe this has to do with what Jeff Saunders mentioned about through what lens you are viewing Scripture. God IS Spirit. God IS Light. God IS Love. This is His essence … like Jeff, this is the lens through which I view and interpret the Scriptures.

Do you know how many times it is written that God will make the enemies of Jesus His footstool?

Mat_22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Mar_12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Luk_20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.​

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

If all mankind is going to willingly bow down and worship Jesus why are there so many vss. saying that the enemies of Jesus will be made His footstool? Jesus' namesake Joshua in the O.T. made his enemies his footstool.

Josh 10:16 But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.​

Jos_10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.Jos_10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.​

Jos_10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king oJos 10:25 And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight.​

Jos 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening. f Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.​

Jos 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.​

But those enemies did not become his faithful followers

Why is it so difficult to think that God will have all bowing and confessing willingly? Is it not plausible that they are captivated by being in the presence of His pure love and beholding the majesty of His Son? The context is about the selflessness of Jesus, His servants heart and humility; and encouraging those believers to have the same mind of The Christ. Nothing in this chapter even remotely hints at a forced confession.

I read all the scriptures not just the vss. that seem to support some preheld beliefs.

Did you not bow and confess willingly after being shown from the Scriptures the depth of Love your God has for you? Why would it be any different for the rest of humanity? Certainly you don’t think God is going to force confessions, like making someone “cry uncle” and then send them away to hell.
blessings
Side note: brother, I resent you that excerpt on John 3:16 again. Have you not received it? Perhaps check your junk mail or even your deleted files. I double checked the email address so you should have it.

I might have deleted the email if I didn't recognize the name. Again, here are the vss. which I think clearly show that all mankind will not willingly confess to Jesus.
Jeremiah 13:10-11, Jeremiah 13:14, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:45-46

 

[Jeff Saunders]

i have not found any evidence that God is going to force anyone to do anything.


this presumption requires that Evil had a purpose.

it didn't... except to kill steal and destroy.

Evil does have a purpose, without it there is no free will.

 

[johansen]

Evil does have a purpose, without it there is no free will.

Short answer no, thats not what we are talking about.

Evil is the result of free will by persons who choose to do it.

 

[HIM]

So you’re saying that God did not count the cost of his creation and he created beings that had a stronger will than his will? Because Rom 5:20 says that where sin abounds grace abounds all the more - but you believe that where sin abounds grace is a little effective because man’s will is greater than Gods?

You are misunderstanding the full scope of meaning of grace and faith in Romans.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I think Genesis 6 is all about fallen angels

Our first introduction to the tempter is as a deceiver, even a liar. Jesus advised us that was the case from the beginning. John 8:44

The entire false notions of Satan once being Holy do not exist in the scriptures. Lucifer was perfect with the caveat being "in thy ways." Essentially a PERFECT DEVIL. Emph. DEVIL.

Freewill camps have over the centuries concocted the Holy Satan story in order for their doctrinal adherents to follow a false gospel of works based salvation, God's equally phony "need" for people to make "good moral decisions" in order to be saved or for lack of having enough on the scale of good works, then Him being forced to burn people alive forever or temporarily.

All of which are entirely falsehoods and everyday basic lies in the realm of phony religion.

As far as Jesus saying in John 8:44 what does that mean because he also said that the Pharisees father was the devil

You are missing a very basic and fundamental view of "people."

People in the scriptures are not just "sole free standing individuals."

Jesus advised us clearly that where the Word is sown, Satan enters our hearts to steal i.e. SIN.

Jesus revealed and engaged DEVILS in MANKIND continually in the scriptures. It's one of the most pronounced matters in the Gospels.

The Apostles advised us that all people have sin and sin is OF THE DEVIL.

Do you see just people in the above? If so, I'd suggest you missed the picture of reality entirely. People do have evil present withIN them just as Paul noted for himself in Romans 7:21. People do have internal temptations via the tempter within them to do so. People are bound to the "spirit of disobedience," uh that would be Satan or his own, internally. Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2

The only difference between a "saved" person and an "unsaved" person is we are supposed to actually SEE and understand our situation. The unsaved do not and actually can not see, because they remain under the mind blinding influences of Satan. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:19, 2 Cor. 4:4 and many many others.

In light of all these scriptural fact free will is, in short, patent absurdity. People are captives, plain and simple. We are in effect still captives in the flesh just as Paul was, Romans 7:25 but we DOMINATE over that working because we SEE IT.

And if you haven't gotten this picture by now, you may never.

Presenting Satanic salvation only served to prove the utter blindness of your positions, which most clear thinking believers rightfully REJECT outright.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

i have not found any evidence that God is going to force anyone to do anything.


this presumption requires that Evil had a purpose.

it didn't... except to kill steal and destroy.

Everything in God's creation has Divine Purposes.

To say anything created itself is polytheism

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

If we are to have free will, we must have evil. Without evil there is no choice, and we need choices in order to have free will. But because God wanted us to choose him from free will

I've already addressed this. It's a freewill doctrine falsehood.

God is not "in NEED" of humans to make some kind of a decision in order for Him to be valid for that person and in order to "reward them" for same. That's essentially a works based salvation, the good moral decider" false gospel. OR, for lack of same "need of God" for a decision or perpetual string of good decisions then, for lack of same be FORCED to torture or terminate same.

Such a position is not even possible in truthful Christianity because---> we all have evil present within us that can not and will not cooperate with God, nor will that evil ever be overlooked by God nor will that evil avoid judgment, nor will that evil ever be justified.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Do you know how many times it is written that God will make the enemies of Jesus His footstool?

Mat_22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Mar_12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Luk_20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.​

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

If all mankind is going to willingly bow down and worship Jesus why are there so many vss. saying that the enemies of Jesus will be made His footstool? Jesus' namesake Joshua in the O.T. made his enemies his footstool.

Josh 10:16 But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.​

Jos_10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.Jos_10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.​

Jos_10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king oJos 10:25 And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight.​

Jos 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening. f Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.​

Jos 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.​

But those enemies did not become his faithful followers

I read all the scriptures not just the vss. that seem to support some preheld beliefs.

I might have deleted the email if I didn't recognize the name. Again, here are the vss. which I think clearly show that all mankind will not willingly confess to Jesus.
Jeremiah 13:10-11, Jeremiah 13:14, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:45-46

Why do you think that the footstool is burning forever in hell?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Our first introduction to the tempter is as a deceiver, even a liar. Jesus advised us that was the case from the beginning. John 8:44

The entire false notions of Satan once being Holy do not exist in the scriptures. Lucifer was perfect with the caveat being "in thy ways." Essentially a PERFECT DEVIL. Emph. DEVIL.

Freewill camps have over the centuries concocted the Holy Satan story in order for their doctrinal adherents to follow a false gospel of works based salvation, God's equally phony "need" for people to make "good moral decisions" in order to be saved or for lack of having enough on the scale of good works, then Him being forced to burn people alive forever or temporarily.

All of which are entirely falsehoods and everyday basic lies in the realm of phony religion.

You are missing a very basic and fundamental view of "people."

People in the scriptures are not just "sole free standing individuals."

Jesus advised us clearly that where the Word is sown, Satan enters our hearts to steal i.e. SIN.

Jesus revealed and engaged DEVILS in MANKIND continually in the scriptures. It's one of the most pronounced matters in the Gospels.

The Apostles advised us that all people have sin and sin is OF THE DEVIL.

Do you see just people in the above? If so, I'd suggest you missed the picture of reality entirely. People do have evil present withIN them just as Paul noted for himself in Romans 7:21. People do have internal temptations via the tempter within them to do so. People are bound to the "spirit of disobedience," uh that would be Satan or his own, internally. Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2

The only difference between a "saved" person and an "unsaved" person is we are supposed to actually SEE and understand our situation. The unsaved do not and actually can not see, because they remain under the mind blinding influences of Satan. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:19, 2 Cor. 4:4 and many many others.

In light of all these scriptural fact free will is, in short, patent absurdity. People are captives, plain and simple. We are in effect still captives in the flesh just as Paul was, Romans 7:25 but we DOMINATE over that working because we SEE IT.

And if you haven't gotten this picture by now, you may never.

Presenting Satanic salvation only served to prove the utter blindness of your positions, which most clear thinking believers rightfully REJECT outright.

That’s one way to look at it but for me I see it differently.