For Old-Earth Creationists: Entropy existed before Adam

[iluvatar5150]

Hello folks. As an Old-Earth Creationist, there has been something that has been nagging me. Some Christians say that disease and entropy, a slow failure of created things in the universe did not happen before the fall of man.

Those people don’t know what they’re talking about. Anything that releases heat into the environment increases entropy. Things that release heat include: the sun, which was created before Adam; friction, which Adam used to walk across the ground; and digestion, which Adam used to process his food.

You can pretty much write off any YEC argument that mentions entropy.

 

[AlexB23]

Those people don’t know what they’re talking about. Anything that releases heat into the environment increases entropy. Things that release heat include: the sun, which was created before Adam; friction, which Adam used to walk across the ground; and digestion, which Adam used to process his food.

You can pretty much write off any YEC argument that mentions entropy.

Agreed. Entropy existed long before humans. Entropy is part of thermodynamics, and the sun is a thermodynamic object. Same with digestion, that releases heat. And fires from ancient lightning strikes have existed long before humans. Fire is entropy happening on a fast rate.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Hello folks. As an Old-Earth Creationist, there has been something that has been nagging me. Some Christians say that disease and entropy, a slow failure of created things in the universe did not happen before the fall of man. However, this article states that even dinosaurs soft tissues T Rex(created millions of years before humans) had disease. Also, as we may know, massive stars died in our universe long before Earth was created.


Dinos had diseases: Researchers discover first evidence indicating dinosaur respiratory infection

This has intrigued me since the news broke Mary Higby Schweitzer - Wikipedia discovery of soft tissues in T. Rex, spreading to many more fossils studied. What mystifies modern paleontologists is the carbon dating limiting dates past 50K due to deterioration of carbon 14. The now many study dates put ages at a few thousand years, not millions, chalked up to claimed 'sample contamination' or a growing list of . The dating is preferred by evolutionists to remain based upon supposed ages of rock strata ages set before carbon dating (and other dating tools) began challenging the old ages. It's more plausible to me the UNM observation easily noted an infection deformation of only a few thousand years past occurrence. Evolutionists still struggle mightily over the actual science facts, supplying characteristic "might have", could have, "it is believed" type comments that ignore what ought by now be obvious actual science (via true science method) far better science supporting a young earth. A potent flaw in modern science method has been a deterioration of the route of obeservation to hypothesis to theory to law. I do admit the dinosaurs were made a day before Adam was created.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Agreed. Entropy existed long before humans. Entropy is part of thermodynamics, and the sun is a thermodynamic object. Same with digestion, that releases heat. And fires from ancient lightning strikes have existed long before humans. Fire is entropy happening on a fast rate.

I believe the word of God in Genesis 1 supports the probability there was not one star emitting light, nor a planet with light upon it, no moon, and no entropy nor law of physics, until God spoke it all into existence very near this first ever planet called Earth. He invented the laws and thousands of years later let men define them with words having observed, hypothesized, tested, theorized, confirmed, then established as laws in agreement with what God said and did.

 

[AlexB23]

I believe the word of God in Genesis 1 supports the probability there was not one star emitting light, nor a planet with light upon it, no moon, and no entropy nor law of physics, until God spoke it all into existence very near this first ever planet called Earth. He invented the laws and thousands of years later let men define them with words having observed, hypothesized, tested, theorized, confirmed, then established as laws in agreement with what God said and did.

I believe in Genesis 1 also and God's Word itself. God said "let there be light", and the universe formed, and invented the laws of physics. He fine-tuned the universe so much so, that the probability of the universe randomly happening and all the physical constants being conducive to planet formation and chemical bonding is basically impossible.

 

[Diamond72]

However, this article states that even dinosaurs (created millions of years before humans) had disease.

People do not understand that Noah's flood was an archetype of the world that God destroyed at the time of the dinosaurs when they began to consume each other. People say that Satan wanted to even the score with God by getting creation to destroy itself. Nothing can please him more then to get us fighting and arguing with each other. United we stand, divided we fall.

 

[AlexB23]

People do not understand that Noah's flood was an archetype of the world that God destroyed at the time of the dinosaurs when they began to consume each other. People say that Satan wanted to even the score with God by getting creation to destroy itself. Nothing can please him more then to get us fighting and arguing with each other. United we stand, divided we fall.

I agree. The world has become more divided nowadays.

 

[Ragdoll]

Hello folks. As an Old-Earth Creationist, there has been something that has been nagging me. Some Christians say that disease and entropy, a slow failure of created things in the universe did not happen before the fall of man. However, this article states that even dinosaurs (created millions of years before humans) had disease. Also, as we may know, massive stars died in our universe long before Earth was created.


Dinos had diseases: Researchers discover first evidence indicating dinosaur respiratory infection

There is information everywhere and on both sides of the discussion. The question is what to trust and why you trust it? If indeed we worships humans then every word spoken by the philosopher is scripture. But if we worship God then we trust every word spoken by God. The universe? Who knows anything about that? I assuringly know little to nothing about the universe. I've never even left the earth, let along travel the vast expanse of the universe. But then again, who has? Nobody.
Sckientists know very little about the oceans and know even less about the universe. You have to realize that cosmology is a pseudoscience, or, to put it better, philosophy. The philosophies of the stars have not changed from ancient times to now. Same theories from the same players. Now this is hard for some to understand who have not read classical literature. But I assure you that its all there. The entire theory of evolution is ancient -- even the early church, as early as the 2nd century A.D., refuted evolution theory. But back then it was not called evolution. It was more of a reference point to an uncreated universe that led to uncreated life that emerged spontaneously (which is where evolution came from and from the books Darwin was reading).
I believe evolution theory is there to scare and intimidate Christians from having a solid relationship with Christ. The theory will lead many believers to have trust issues with God and His word. They may want to make the Bible conform to man's thoughts and teachings. But God's ways are higher then man's ways and we all need to make the choice whether or not to trust God or to trust the ways of the world. Do not confuse philosophy with science and scientific method. This is the most common mistake made by both sides of the debate today. Evolutionists do not apply scientific method to any of their research, Its all made up. Its philosophy and philosophy is the practice of words....eloquent speech that is used to convince others that the philosopher's opinion is correct and your believes are wrong. That's all it is. Trust God and understand that evolution theory is there to intimidate you into submissive worship of man and his form of government.

 

[Ragdoll]

I would like to give some loving advice to everywhere here on this discussion. After reading through the discussion I thought I was in the Twilight Zone lol. The best knowledge is knowable knowledge. When you are stuck in the realm of philosophy and unknowable discussion, how will you ever come to an understanding of anything? You will remain stuck in the realm of the unknown and the unknowable. This leads to unknown conclusions which cannont ever be proven. Thus it leaves everyone here mystified and you all walk away from this subject clueless. If you want to understand the topic or origins then you need to stick to knowable knowledge. Cosmology is not knowable knowledge as nobody knows anything about the universe. Everything is cosmology is merely the philosophy of the stars. We can't know any of that without flying a space ship throughout the universe to learn firsthand the things of the universe. We are all living here on earth. Our best tool for studying the stars is the telescope and that tells us very little about the past of the universe. Scientists know very little about the oceans and know even less about the universe.
Ground Zero Research is how you study origins. This is research that goes no farther than the known solar-systen and what we know about the solar-system. I can assure you there are many things scientists still don't know about the solar-system. But Ground Zero Research places focus on geoscience and things of the known world. This is how science was always meant to be, So my advice for discussion is to stict to knowable knowledge and by doing so you will find yourself learning so much more about the world you live in then getting yourselves stuck in debates of the unknown and unknowable.

 

[AlexB23]

There is information everywhere and on both sides of the discussion. The question is what to trust and why you trust it? If indeed we worships humans then every word spoken by the philosopher is scripture. But if we worship God then we trust every word spoken by God. The universe? Who knows anything about that? I assuringly know little to nothing about the universe. I've never even left the earth, let along travel the vast expanse of the universe. But then again, who has? Nobody.
Sckientists know very little about the oceans and know even less about the universe. You have to realize that cosmology is a pseudoscience, or, to put it better, philosophy. The philosophies of the stars have not changed from ancient times to now. Same theories from the same players. Now this is hard for some to understand who have not read classical literature. But I assure you that its all there. The entire theory of evolution is ancient -- even the early church, as early as the 2nd century A.D., refuted evolution theory. But back then it was not called evolution. It was more of a reference point to an uncreated universe that led to uncreated life that emerged spontaneously (which is where evolution came from and from the books Darwin was reading).
I believe evolution theory is there to scare and intimidate Christians from having a solid relationship with Christ. The theory will lead many believers to have trust issues with God and His word. They may want to make the Bible conform to man's thoughts and teachings. But God's ways are higher then man's ways and we all need to make the choice whether or not to trust God or to trust the ways of the world. Do not confuse philosophy with science and scientific method. This is the most common mistake made by both sides of the debate today. Evolutionists do not apply scientific method to any of their research, Its all made up. Its philosophy and philosophy is the practice of words....eloquent speech that is used to convince others that the philosopher's opinion is correct and your believes are wrong. That's all it is. Trust God and understand that evolution theory is there to intimidate you into submissive worship of man and his form of government.

I believe in Old-Earth creationism, but still trust in God. So, that is all that matters.

 

[Ragdoll]

I believe in Old-Earth creationism, but still trust in God. So, that is all that matters.

And I truly respect that. Though you should know that the theology of OEC is not based on a traditional view of Scripture. At some point in time you will discover this. I hope when that times comes you still place your trust in God.

 

[AlexB23]

And I truly respect that. Though you should know that the theology of OEC is not based on a traditional view of Scripture. At some point in time you will discover this. I hope when that times comes you still place your trust in God.

I will trust in God, no matter what. The co-discoverer of the Big Bang was a devout Catholic.

Georges Lemaitre: Georges Lemaître - The Society of Catholic Scientists

 

[Ragdoll]

I will trust in God, no matter what. The co-discoverer of the Big Bang was a devout Catholic.

Georges Lemaitre: Georges Lemaître - The Society of Catholic Scientists

The Big Bang is nowhere in Scripture. But you will find the Big Bang in ancient pagan Greek philosophy where today's evolutionists get their information from. Cosmology is mere philosophy....a pseudoscience for people who don't want to keep their question for truth in knowable knowledge. Its nothing more then Deep Space Fantasia. No way of proving any of that with scientific method. No way.
I would like to ask you where in Scripture you think you find the Big Bang?

 

[AlexB23]

The Big Bang is nowhere in Scripture. But you will find the Big Bang in ancient pagan Greek philosophy where today's evolutionists get their information from. Cosmology is mere philosophy....a pseudoscience for people who don't want to keep their question for truth in knowable knowledge. Its nothing more then Deep Space Fantasia. No way of proving any of that with scientific method. No way.
I would like to ask you where in Scripture you think you find the Big Bang?

Genesis 1:3 "And God said, let there be light".
This light can be detected as the Cosmic Microwave Background, the light emitted by the heat of the Big Bang.

Isaiah 40:22 "He [God] sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in".
This verse refers to the stretching of the universe, written nearly 2600 years before the Big Bang and cosmological expansion were discovered.

Source 1: Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation
Source 2: Our Expanding Universe: Age, History & Other Facts

 

[Ragdoll]

Genesis 1:3 "And God said, let there be light".
This light can be detected as the Cosmic Microwave Background, the light emitted by the heat of the Big Bang.

Isaiah 40:22 "He [God] sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in".
This verse refers to the stretching of the universe, written nearly 2600 years before the Big Bang and cosmological expansion were discovered.

Source 1: Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation
Source 2: Our Expanding Universe: Age, History & Other Facts

Isaiah 40:22 is about an earth that is spherical and moving in a circle. It has nothing to do with the Big Bang.
Genesis 1:3 is not about the Big Bang. In Genesis 1:1-2 the universe is watery and a very dark place. In Genesis 1:2, the earth has more in common with a bubble in a lava lamp then it does a spherical planet. And in verse 3, God's Spirit moves over the earth. Now if God does the Big Bang here the earth is doomed! But the earth was already created in verse 1-2.

 

[SuperCow]

Yep. That is actually the prevention of many food related diseases. It can not however, cure autism, down syndrome or ADHD.

Those are birth defects that in most cases can likely be traced to imperfect health practices of parents or their environment.

 

[SuperCow]

Yeah, the beginning happened 13.8 billion years ago, when God spoke the universe into existence. Dinosaurs first appeared 230M years ago.

God didn't speak the universe into existence. He spoke his intentions and acted on them and his actions created the universe. Dinosaurs were created on the fifth day along with the other great sea creatures and the birds. That would be your 200-300M year ago period.

 

[AlexB23]

Those are birth defects that in most cases can likely be traced to imperfect health practices of parents or their environment.

Yeah. Hundreds of factors could cause diseases.

 

[sparow]

We are "star stuff" according to the science of Sagan and Tyson. Hosts of Cosmos. The Universe stated off smaller than a mustard seed, but that seed contained all the information needed for all of time. God declares the end from the beginning. At conception we have all of our gifts, talents and abilities in our DNA.

Life was very different at the time of the dinosaurs. The atmosphere was very different. The sky was pink, not blue. Primates existed but in a very small and primitive state. 10% always survives major extinctions and today Crocodiles and Turtles did survive. The live very long lives, hundreds of years and they grow to be very big.

When man did appear the cause of death is murder. They were killed with a smashed skull, arrowhead or spear. They were all killed in the prime of life which would indicate there was no ageing. From Adam to Noah people lived to be 1,000. Adam and Noah's father were alive together so that they could have known each other.

Most of disease Science considers to be caused by civilization. There is little evidence of disease before Adam and Eve back when we were good gathers before food producers. When man began to produce his own food the populations exploded as many more people could be fed.

Disease is usually due to microscopic life and particles; entropy is the natural aging due to losses in DNA strands. In steam engines, entropy is losses due to heat radiation and friction; on our planet or in our solar system everything is in a state of entropic change. Entropy, in as far as there may be evolutionary change, is from big to small not the other way round.

 

[Ragdoll]

We are "star stuff" according to the science of Sagan and Tyson. Hosts of Cosmos. The Universe stated off smaller than a mustard seed, but that seed contained all the information needed for all of time. God declares the end from the beginning. At conception we have all of our gifts, talents and abilities in our DNA.

Life was very different at the time of the dinosaurs. The atmosphere was very different. The sky was pink, not blue. Primates existed but in a very small and primitive state. 10% always survives major extinctions and today Crocodiles and Turtles did survive. The live very long lives, hundreds of years and they grow to be very big.

When man did appear the cause of death is murder. They were killed with a smashed skull, arrowhead or spear. They were all killed in the prime of life which would indicate there was no ageing. From Adam to Noah people lived to be 1,000. Adam and Noah's father were alive together so that they could have known each other.

Most of disease Science considers to be caused by civilization. There is little evidence of disease before Adam and Eve back when we were good gathers before food producers. When man began to produce his own food the populations exploded as many more people could be fed.

Are you sure Sagan said that? ARe you positively sure its not ancient Greek mythology? Here is a 2nd century Christian theologian writing a letter to his Greek friend about his Greek beliefs in evolution. Almost the whole book reads like a evolution vs creation debate but in the 2nd century A.D.

That part about we are a way for the universe to know itself is monistic and an ancient belief. Monism is the siamese twin of pantheism. Except in monism you can form a personal relationship with the universe whereas in pantheism you cannot know the universe. All this goes back to the worship of the stars--astrology.