Faith alone? How much faith?

[Clare73]

And in the church the body the new covenant

The body of Christ, the church, the new covenant all happen with justification.

 

[Clare73]

I differ with you on your volition aspect of faith. In order to choose to believe, you must already believe. Think about it:

For you to able to choose to believe in Christ (or continue to believe), this requires you to already believe in these:
1. That God is, and rewards those who seek Him
2. That you are a sinner in need of a savior
3. That there is hope in following Christ and obeying Him
4. That the gospel preached to you is true
5. That God knows what you need, and you don't

This is not an exhaustive list. Believing in the gospel of Christ is not some switch that one turns on by volition, or some choice one makes like which brand to buy. Believing in Christ is far more complex, requiring underlying beliefs that arise out of the core of the human heart. It's a spiritual matter, requiring the help of the Holy Spirit, and not a product of mere natural reasoning.

Not actually, you can know of all those things and still not know if they are true, and regard them no more than you regard anything else unknown by you to be true. Sometimes you don't even have to be searching.

 

[Clare73]

Then all are saved? Since we can do nothing
Faith of contrary to reason?

"It has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him." (Php 1:29)

"When the Gentiles heard this. . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Ac 13:48)

". . .think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

". . .those who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

 

[Clare73]

Just trying to get biblical understanding
What about baptism is it necessary for salvation?

Was the thief on the cross baptized?

If I get killed on the way to being baptized, am I eternally lost?

Baptism, like circumcision in the OT, is the sign whereby the ministering spirits (Heb 1:4), the angels (1Co 11:10; Eph 3:10; 1Tim 5:1)
know that we have joined the New Covenant community of the people of God.

 

[Clare73]

God defines work in scripture, you can easily find what you could not do on the Sabbath and also a lot of things you could do on the Sabbath (they were not considered "work"). You could walk around, carry and feed a child, eat, fix a meal, and so on.
Worship is not work, so doing stuff to help those in need in obedience to God's commands is worship and not work.

Cook a meal?

 

[Clare73]

Every mature adult has been gifted with “faith” and use that faith throughout their lives. The “faith we do have does not become “saving faith” until we turn our faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Most of the time we have faith in ourselves to both do and not do and think stuff.

Atheists and agnostics actually have to have a great deal of “faith” to believe God does not exist.

Atheists and agnostics talk about a “lack of evidence” to have “faith” in God. That is not “faith” they are looking for, but knowledge of God’s existence.

To have “faith” in a Creator is extremely easy since every tree around us is evidence of a creator, if we allow the tree to be evidence. The atheist or agnostic cannot explain life, so the tree does not support the nonexistence of God.

Saving faith is not accepting “Christ or God” like we might think, but humbly accepting God’s Love (God is Love). The problem is: God is offering an unconditional, sacrificial, unselfish gift of Love (mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness/help), but we have to receive that gift as it is given (as pure charity) and man does not like to accept charity.

Just the very little faith needed to believe there is God (which you have to be a fool not to believe) is about all that is needed to humbly accept an undeserved very needed gift from your enemy God. You are like a soldier struggling to win against a very power enemy you hate but know you can’t beat. You have run out of hope in self and thus turn to this hated enemy (God) with just that little “faith” in His Love which would allow Him to give you just some undeserved relieve. Again, you are not joining your enemy or suddenly Loving your hated enemy, just wimping out and giving up.

Yes, there comes a time with most humans at which they will never accept God’s charity (only God knows this), since they have continuously refused it in the past.

That refusing of God’s Love will keep them out of heaven, since they do not want Godly type Love and heaven is one huge Love Feast of only Godly type Love. These people would not be happy in heaven.

Isn't heaven based on faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin?

 

[Clare73]

In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying him. What we beleive is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of doing works. Yes, we must choose to believe and continue to believe until death.

Faith is both belief and performance, but only the belief justifies, so that no one can (is able to) boast of any performance, thereby taking any credit away from what is 100% God's work (Rev 7:10).

 

[Clare73]

Faith alone? No

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Salvation here is "deliverance," at the end of time.

1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.
Greatest would be Faith is salvation was by faith alone but the greatest is charity

In the context of "fruits of the Spirit," where the spiritual gift of the already-saved-by-faith is a faith that does extraordinary works, a gift not given to all, and which is not as important as charity.

 

[Ephfourfive]

"It has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him." (Php 1:29)

"When the Gentiles heard this. . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Ac 13:48)

". . .think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

". . .those who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

But it never says faith alone???

 

[Soyeong]

Faith is both belief and performance, but only the belief justifies, so that no one can (is able to) boast of any performance, thereby taking any credit away from what is 100% God's work (Rev 7:10).

In James 2:21-22, it says that Abraham was justified by his works, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so we are justified by our works, but only insofar as our works are an expression of our faith, and not insofar as our works are an attempt to earn our justification (Romans 4:4-5).

 

[Ephfourfive]

"It has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him." (Php 1:29)

"When the Gentiles heard this. . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Ac 13:48)

". . .think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

". . .those who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jn 1:29

 

[Ephfourfive]

Salvation here is "deliverance," at the end of time.In the context of "fruits of the Spirit," where the spiritual gift of the already-saved-by-faith is a faith that does extraordinary works, a gift not given to all, and which is not as important as charity.

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Any denial of the divinity of Christ: or His incarnation: or the Holy Trinity is antichrist! Or Christ from His Holy Church! Or the unity of Christians with the church, the body of Christ, the new covenant in union with the mediator and in communion with God and the saints!

“Faith alone” denies the Union of the Christian in the church thru the sacraments promised by the Father and instituted by Christ!

The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

 

[Victor in Christ]

Luke 17 talks about an increase in faith and what not to do as a disciple in Christ.

Notice the change between disciples to apostles in verse 5

1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

3Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

4And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

 

[Ephfourfive]

The church is necessary for salvation and the sacraments are only found in the church
The seven fountains of grace!


The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

 

[Clare73]

"It has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him." (Php 1:29)

"When the Gentiles heard this. . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Ac 13:48)

". . .think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

". . .those who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

But it never says faith alone???

I covered this with you eight days ago in your Justification thread, where faith then glimmered:

Thank you for helping me have a Biblical understanding

It is a difficult subject

The body of Christ is a church and the new covenant there must be an outward sign of initiation into this covenant to be in union with the mediator and in communion with both God and the saints:
What is this initiation and outward sign?

but the magisterium quickly snuffed it out, and armed you against it, to wit:

Any scripture for justification by “faith alone”?

For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith apart from works, which is "faith alone."

Ac 13:38 (Paul) - Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Ro 1:17 - For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith' " (Hab 2:4)

Ro 3:21-22 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 3:28 - We maintain that a man is justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 4:5 - However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 6:14 - you are not under law, but under grace.

Gal 2:16 - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:10 - All you rely on observing the law are under a curse.

Gal 3:11-12 - Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith,' and the law is not based on faith. On the contrary, the man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Eph 2:9 - you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Clare73]

In James 2:21-22, it says that Abraham was justified by his works, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so we are justified by our works, but only insofar as our works are an expression of our faith, and not insofar as our works are an attempt to earn our justification (Romans 4:4-5).

See post #35, above.

 

[Clare73]

"It has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him." (Php 1:29)

"When the Gentiles heard this. . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Ac 13:48)

". . .think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

". . .those who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jn 1:29

Okay. . .and?

 

[Ephfourfive]

I covered this with you eight days ago in the Justification thread, to wit:For Paul, there are only two considerations:

1) faith + works, and
2) faith apart from works, which is "faith alone."

Ac 13:38 (Paul) - Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Ro 1:17 - For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith' " (Hab 2:4)

Ro 3:21-22 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. . .This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 3:28 - We maintain that a man is justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 4:5 - However, to the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 6:14 - you are not under law, but under grace.

Gal 2:16 - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:10 - All you rely on observing the law are under a curse.

Gal 3:11-12 - Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith,' and the law is not based on faith. On the contrary, the man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Eph 2:9 - you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.

What are works? Prayer? Penance? Alms? Fasting? Virtues?

 

[Clare73]

1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.

In the context of "fruits of the Spirit," where the spiritual gift of the already-saved-by-faith is a faith that does extraordinary works, a gift not given to all, and which is not as important as charity.

Salvation here is "deliverance," at the end of time.

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Any denial of the divinity of Christ: or His incarnation: or the Holy Trinity is antichrist! Or Christ from His Holy Church! Or the unity of Christians with the church, the body of Christ, the new covenant in union with the mediator and in communion with God and the saints!

“Faith alone” denies the Union of the Christian in the church thru the sacraments promised by the Father and instituted by Christ!

The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

Not sure how that relates to the context. . .are you paying attention, or just scatter-shooting?

 

[Clare73]

What are works? Prayer? Penance? Alms? Fasting? Virtues?

Addressed in post #27.
You're going to have to concentrate more if you are going to get this.