THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[agapelove]

Welcome! We have another one that shows universalism has no idea what they teach!!

Thank you for the lovely welcome! You say you have no desire to to repeat what has been said but I thank you for doing a very thorough job explaining where you are coming from. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss universalists to have no idea what they're teaching. It has been around for as long as your side of the theology.

You say you want scriptural evidence as to why I believe ultimate reconciliation is a very real possibility:

1 Corinthians 3 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Is this what you are looking for in terms of someone "coming out of the Lake of Fire"?

Revelation 21:25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Even until the very end, the Bible has always been a story of limitless hope. To believe that there will be some that ultimately can not be saved is to believe that love has failed (1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails), and that death has the last word.

I am NOT dismissing the wages of sin. I believe that to live a life of sin WILL result in death. But to project "death" into the distant eschatological future is to ignore that death exists HERE AND NOW and is everywhere already. And the only way to eternal life (which is also available HERE AND NOW) is to believe in the love and power of Jesus Christ.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Thank you for the lovely welcome! You say you have no desire to to repeat what has been said but I thank you for doing a very thorough job explaining where you are coming from. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss universalists to have no idea what they're teaching. It has been around for as long as your side of the theology.

You say you want scriptural evidence as to why I believe ultimate reconciliation is a very real possibility:

1 Corinthians 3 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Is this what you are looking for in terms of someone "coming out of the Lake of Fire"?

Revelation 21:25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Even until the very end, the Bible has always been a story of limitless hope. To believe that there will be some that ultimately can not be saved is to believe that love has failed (1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails), and that death has the last word.

I am NOT dismissing the wages of sin. I believe that to live a life of sin WILL result in death. But to project "death" into the distant eschatological future is to ignore that death exists HERE AND NOW and is everywhere already. And the only way to eternal life (which is also available HERE AND NOW) is to believe in the love and power of Jesus Christ.

Dear Heavenly Father, may we never forget that you are love, and the power of your love to go further to save than evil can ever go to destroy, the power of love to endure death and hell to deliver us from our sin, our doubt that you were ever against us. For we know with you nothing is impossible, miracles are commonplace, and your words never fall to the ground. We thank you for your wisdom, by which you use the foolish things to confound the worldly, and teach us that unless a grain of wheat fall to the earth and die, it cannot grow and bring forth much fruit. Lord, we renew our belief in your amazing grace and the good and perfect plan you have for the restoration of all creation in Christ, when every knee will bow and tongue confess in earnest that you have done it! AMEN.

 

[mmksparbud]

Thank you for the lovely welcome! You say you have no desire to to repeat what has been said but I thank you for doing a very thorough job explaining where you are coming from. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss universalists to have no idea what they're teaching. It has been around for as long as your side of the theology.

You say you want scriptural evidence as to why I believe ultimate reconciliation is a very real possibility:

1 Corinthians 3 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Is this what you are looking for in terms of someone "coming out of the Lake of Fire"?

Revelation 21:25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Even until the very end, the Bible has always been a story of limitless hope. To believe that there will be some that ultimately can not be saved is to believe that love has failed (1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails), and that death has the last word.

I am NOT dismissing the wages of sin. I believe that to live a life of sin WILL result in death. But to project "death" into the distant eschatological future is to ignore that death exists HERE AND NOW and is everywhere already. And the only way to eternal life (which is also available HERE AND NOW) is to believe in the love and power of Jesus Christ.

Nope---already gone through this.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Rev:
Nope: That does not state any man will come out of the lake fire---you are adding to what is not there.

We are given eternal life in this world when we accept Jesus---We are clothed with His robe of righteousness and inherit that eternal life when we are resurrectred. We will then be changed from mortal to immortal.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

No one comes out of the lake of fire unto eternal life with Christ. Those that awake at the 2nd resurrection will go into the lake of fire with no protection from the fire. God can never fail. He has done everything according to schedule and will continue to do so. There ius no 2nd chance. After the wicked are resurrected they gather together with Satan to try to take over the city and are immediately destroyed.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[ClementofA]

Nope---already gone through this.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The question is, what does it mean to be "destroy(ed") v.17 & are destroyed ones described earlier in the context (v.15) by "he shall suffer loss". The same verse saying "but he himself shall be saved".

Annihilationists assume destroy means annihilated forever, never to live again. But v.17 doesn't say that. So to inject it in there is merely an interpretation, an opinion, not a thus sayeth the Lord.

The English word "destroy" has various meanings. It need not mean endless annihilation. For example, a car that is destroyed can be repaired. A King whose soul is destroyed so much that he eats grass like an animal for 7 years can be restored (see Daniel, OT, Bible). An alcoholic who destroys his health, relationships & mind(soul) with booze can be restored to health, restored in his relationships with others & restored to a sound mind(soul).

So, again,when annihilationists simply quote a verse & make the unsupported, unproven & unwarranted - assumption - about it & the word "destroyed", that it supports their view, they do not have a "proof text" for their viewpoint, but merely a human opinion. Not a thus sayeth the Lord.

And why would Love Omnipotent want to resort to endless annihilation? It makes no sense.

Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor 3:15 & universalism:
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

 

[agapelove]

No one comes out of the lake of fire unto eternal life with Christ. Those that awake at the 2nd resurrection will go into the lake of fire with no protection from the fire. God can never fail. He has done everything according to schedule and will continue to do so. There ius no 2nd chance. After the wicked are resurrected they gather together with Satan to try to take over the city and are immediately destroyed.

To my understanding, the Lake of Fire is a reference to the Valley of Hinnom/Gehenna. Jeremiah was the guy that was all about Gehenna, and to Him it was not so much a metaphor for personal damnation in the afterlife but rather, a portrait of mass destruction whenever God's people rebel (literal destruction in THIS LIFE). Jesus also always spoke about Gehenna in the same context. Jesus explains that God did not send him to deliver the world into some forthcoming condemnation but to deliver people from the condemned state in which they suffer already (John 3:16-18).
Jeremiah's final references of Hinnom are about REDEMPTION. (Jeremiah 31, 32)
"The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown...... will be holy to the LORD."

It has ALWAYS been about redemption. The reason I disagree with annihilists is that the destruction of God's creation is precisely the goal of evil! The destruction (including the self-destruction) of those made in God's image represents the victory for the forces of darkness.

I agree that God will destroy all wickedness, but that is not to say I agree that God will destroy all wicked PEOPLE. Even the DEAD can be redeemed! Please read the parable of the Prodigal Son and see if that changes how you define dead and alive.

I agree. There are no 2nd chances. There are seventy times seven chances!

 

[mmksparbud]

To my understanding, the Lake of Fire is a reference to the Valley of Hinnom/Gehenna. Jeremiah was the guy that was all about Gehenna, and to Him it was not so much a metaphor for personal damnation in the afterlife but rather, a portrait of mass destruction whenever God's people rebel (literal destruction in THIS LIFE). Jesus also always spoke about Gehenna in the same context. Jesus explains that God did not send him to deliver the world into some forthcoming condemnation but to deliver people from the condemned state in which they suffer already (John 3:16-18).
Jeremiah's final references of Hinnom are about REDEMPTION. (Jeremiah 31, 32)
"The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown...... will be holy to the LORD."

It has ALWAYS been about redemption. The reason I disagree with annihilists is that the destruction of God's creation is precisely the goal of evil! The destruction (including the self-destruction) of those made in God's image represents the victory for the forces of darkness.

I agree that God will destroy all wickedness, but that is not to say I agree that God will destroy all wicked PEOPLE. Even the DEAD can be redeemed! Please read the parable of the Prodigal Son and see if that changes how you define dead and alive.

I agree. There are no 2nd chances. There are seventy times seven chances!

The lake of fire does not destroy God's creation!! In fact--it preserves it---only evil is destroyed in the lake of fire. After the lake of is turned to ashes---the whole of the new earth is remade over it. Completely covered over with the beauty of the remade EARTH---FOREVER BURIED.

 

[mmksparbud]

I agree. There are no 2nd chances. There are seventy times seven chances!

That's only in this life---that is how many ti9mes we are to forgive. At death is the end of time for repentance. There are no 2nd chances after death to repent. You won't find a verse for anyone repenting after death, either.

 

[agapelove]

The lake of fire does not destroy God's creation!! In fact--it preserves it---only evil is destroyed in the lake of fire. After the lake of is turned to ashes---the whole of the new earth is remade over it. Completely covered over with the beauty of the remade EARTH---FOREVER BURIED.

So we both agree that the Lake of Fire preserves God's creation! (It refines it as well.) I am confused as to why you argue for the complete annihilation of the wicked with no chance of redemption.

That's only in this life---that is how many ti9mes we are to forgive. At death is the end of time for repentance. There are no 2nd chances after death to repent. You won't find a verse for anyone repenting after death, either.

While I agree that there is no technical evidence that shows the full repentance of a person posthumous, the overarching narrative of Scripture allows me the hope to believe that God's love (even for a wicked person!) is stronger than death.

In the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus, we already see the work of the Holy Spirit taking root in the suffering of the rich man. It seems to me that he is already experiencing his own version of the Lake of Fire. Although the story is incomplete (it doesn't actually say whether the rich man fully repents), I am allowed to hope that God does not give up on him, based on what Jesus has revealed about about God's love, patience, and mercy.

You did not address the two Revelation passages I shared with you. They talk about the New Jerusalem and clearly mentions the presence of the wicked STILL BEING THERE (although not in the city, but outside of it). It does not say they are permanently destroyed. The wicked are outside the city + the gates will never be shut + the Spirit and the Bride say "Come" = HOPE!

You are right when you say that there is no verse I can find to prove that universalism is true. But then, the same can be said about my faith in general. There is no real evidence that God exists. But I put my faith and hope in Him, who wills that all shall repent and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

 

[FineLinen]

That's only in this life---that is how many ti9mes we are to forgive. At death is the end of time for repentance. There are no 2nd chances after death to repent. You won't find a verse for anyone repenting after death, either.

The love of God (His essence), & His grace flowing from out of Him has time limits?

You must by your own weak will avail yourself of Him while here in this world?

His love & grace do not expire when you do!

 

[mmksparbud]

So we both agree that the Lake of Fire preserves God's creation! (It refines it as well.) I am confused as to why you argue for the complete annihilation of the wicked with no chance of redemption.



While I agree that there is no technical evidence that shows the full repentance of a person posthumous, the overarching narrative of Scripture allows me the hope to believe that God's love (even for a wicked person!) is stronger than death.

In the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus, we already see the work of the Holy Spirit taking root in the suffering of the rich man. It seems to me that he is already experiencing his own version of the Lake of Fire. Although the story is incomplete (it doesn't actually say whether the rich man fully repents), I am allowed to hope that God does not give up on him, based on what Jesus has revealed about about God's love, patience, and mercy.

You did not address the two Revelation passages I shared with you. They talk about the New Jerusalem and clearly mentions the presence of the wicked STILL BEING THERE (although not in the city, but outside of it). It does not say they are permanently destroyed. The wicked are outside the city + the gates will never be shut + the Spirit and the Bride say "Come" = HOPE!

You are right when you say that there is no verse I can find to prove that universalism is true. But then, the same can be said about my faith in general. There is no real evidence that God exists. But I put my faith and hope in Him, who wills that all shall repent and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

I am stating what the bible says. What Jesus says. The story of Lazarus if a parable, not a treatise on the state of the dead. The point of the story is stated by Jesus.
uk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The Pharisees were listening and it was for their benefit. Jesus would indeed raise a Lazarus from the dead---and they still did not believe.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This does not mean that these are outside the city---the New Jerusalem and the new earth is made over the lake of fire after all is ashes. I already stated that. These are those who will not be in it---ever. The wicked have no part in the new earth. It has been remade. Rev is mostly visions that John was given. If you read from that start of Rev 22, John has a vision of the new city and what it contains. Then it switches


Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

After that it goes into those who will get into the city---and those wo won't. It is not one long vision where the city is shown with the lo9st on the outside. The saved w8ill not be only in the city---that is where we will be during the 1000 years unti8l the city comes down. After it comes down we get to be outside the city and plant gardens and build our own homes---we will have both a city mansion built by Jesus and a country home if we want! The whole planet only contains those who are saved---none who are lost are there.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There would still be tears and pain and suffering if the evil ones were still around! All that used to are no more.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Again---Rev is not one long vision, one narrative. It is a series of visions--and it goes back and forth between scenes. There are no sinners on the new earth. They have all been destroyed in the lake of fire. and not one singkle operson comes out of the lake of fire into eternal life with Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

The love of God (His essence), & His grace flowing from out of Him has time limits?

You must by your own weak will avail yourself of Him while here in this world?

His love & grace do not expire when you do!

I go by what Jesus says, not what some man wants me to think, not by what I want to get away with and still claim Him as my Savior---He says the wicked will end up in the lake of fire and He does not say anyone comes out of it. We are to overcome using Jesus and the Father as our strength---not out own. Jesus relied on the Father---so can we. That was one of the points Jesus came to show us---how to overcome through the power of God. His love and grace expires for the wicked when they expire in the lake of fire and are ashes under the New Earth.

 

[FineLinen]

I go by what Jesus says, not what some man wants me to think, not by what I want to get away with and still claim Him as my Savior---He says the wicked will end up in the lake of fire and He does not say anyone comes out of it.

My dear girl; there is only one segment of those not "hurt" by the 2nd death. Do you know who they are?

 

[mmksparbud]

You are right when you say that there is no verse I can find to prove that universalism is true. But then, the same can be said about my faith in general. There is no real evidence that God exists. But I put my faith and hope in Him, who wills that all shall repent and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

We have His word, the same word that Jesus read---that is all new Christians had for the NT had not been put together for at least 70 years after the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is who inspired the NT---It is He who created this earth, and it is the scriptures that upholds our faith. If it is not in the bible, we must not add or detract from it and must be careful or loose our way. It is tempting to start to think of what we want the word to say instead of what it actually does say. It does not say that all will repent and be saved. It says He has made it possible for all to be saved.
This is not only directed at true Israel, for we are Spiritual Israel--

Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is for us now. We are to take our strength in the Father, Just as Jesus did, and overcome and repent from sin, which means, turn away from it. Jesus is our example.

 

[mmksparbud]

My dear girl; there is only one segment of those not "hurt" by the 2nd death. Do you know who they are?

Go back to where you asked the same question---several times, and have been answered. I've gone over this and over this with you---there comes a time when one must brush the dust off---good night.

 

[FineLinen]

• You can brush brush brush. If you continue brushing, and flossing, you can save your teeth. Saving F.L. will require serious brushing!

 

[FineLinen]

• When being is divorced from doing, pious thoughts become
  

  Go back to where you asked the same question---several times, and have been answered. I've gone over this and over this with you---there comes a time when one must brush the dust off---good night.

• 
  
• Sweet dreams. If & when you return completely refreshed, we shall speak of the only illustrious segment of any Christian, or anybody, who is NOT "hurt" by the Lake of Glory.
• 
  ONLY!

 

[agapelove]

I am stating what the bible says. What Jesus says. The story of Lazarus if a parable, not a treatise on the state of the dead. The point of the story is stated by Jesus.
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I guess I see a bigger takeaway from this parable. Even the church prays for the dead. That is not to take away any urgency from accepting Jesus during THIS LIFETIME. There is no contradiction in believing in both the urgency of repenting NOW, and also believing that the wicked can repent after death, if necessary.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This does not mean that these are outside the city---the New Jerusalem and the new earth is made over the lake of fire after all is ashes. I already stated that. These are those who will not be in it---ever. The wicked have no part in the new earth. It has been remade. Rev is mostly visions that John was given. If you read from that start of Rev 22, John has a vision of the new city and what it contains. Then it switches

Again---Rev is not one long vision, one narrative. It is a series of visions--and it goes back and forth between scenes. There are no sinners on the new earth. They have all been destroyed in the lake of fire. and not one singkle operson comes out of the lake of fire into eternal life with Jesus.

Yes, John's visions seem to be out of order. But what if for a purpose? Which makes me question... is the "end" really just the beginning? There are a lot of anomalies within these visions that only really make sense if we see it as God presently working on saving the wicked.

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Why mention that the wicked can not enter the city? Shouldn't we already assume their fate is sealed inside the Lake of Fire? Or shouldn't we assume that once the New Jerusalem is established, there isn't anything unclean that is left? Is John simply being redundant?

And remember the fate of the actual Gehenna (which the Lake of Fire is based upon!). It was used as a symbol of purging people of their wickedness, not to purge wicked people from righteous people.

Wickedness exists in you and me just as goodness exists in wicked people. God knows the goodness and is willing to find it. The reason evil will no longer exist is not because EVIL PEOPLE will be destroyed, but that the evil IN PEOPLE will be destroyed.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You poor dear Lover: Your salvation & every one of us is dependent upon the Living God & He alone. Words do NOT save you, He does.

You will not come to Me

This is where you are mistaken dear Fine. Did you know know God's Word does indeed save us as we beleive and follow them? Your teaching however teaches that men can make a mockery of the blood of Christ shed for the sins of the world to satisfy God's justice and judgements for sin and simply reject God's gift of salvation and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the Spirit of Grace, and work out their time in torture until they repent and are forced to worship God. This is goes against the the teachings of the bible and will be responsible for leading many to live like the devil today because according to your words they can take their chances from the gambling lady of second chances for which is not biblical. Good luck trying to find here when you stand before God on judgement day.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's a false doctrine. The wicked are - not - saved without the blood of Christ.

Notice the "blood" here in v.20:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

True Universalism is indeed a false doctrine now are those who reject the blood of Christ saved by the blood of Christ when they have to spend their time repenting in the lake of fire being tortured by your God until then are forced to worship him? I am sorry that is simply unbiblical nonsense. The unrepentant wicked reject the blood of Christ that is given to satisfy God's justice and judgement and according to your theology are sent to the lake of fire being forced to repent and worship God in order to be let out? Sounds like a works based salvation to me for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming to me what about you?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You do know that Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk? Or do you prefer the theology of the English reformists like 'Praisegod Barebones'?

Sure he was. You do not he was instrumentally used by God to turn people away from man made teachings and traditions of the Church back to the pure Word of God right?