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Can the NIV version be trusted?

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DW1980

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Well, same book though, same publisher, same freedom. What is the difference? If those publishing the NIV have no problem doing a version more suitable to the sin in the world around them, what is the difference? And calling me names does not make me think you have information to support your position but rather employ an ad hominem argument as you have none.

This isn't accurate. The NIV text copyright is held by Biblica (formerly the International Bible Society), not the publishers. So the publishers are not free to change the text of the NIV. The translators are all Christians who uphold the authority and inspiration of the Bible. Why would they want to make it "more suitable to the sin"?
 
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DW1980

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This tells anyone who thinks about it for 5 minutes, that the sponsors of the NIV have no problem changing the text away from the original. No one would really dare do that with the KJV and continue to call it the KJV without any additional title. THe NIV writers took great liberty as some of them at least had an agenda and it was not to present the truth. IT is highly edited removing the deity of Christ and the power of the church as much as possible but not entirely so that it is not yet apparent. It also uses words that would allow people serving other gods to enjoy reading it as the words for God before so vague, one can mean anyone.

Really? From the NIV...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (John 1:1, 18)

…we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ… (Titus 2:13)

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours… (2 Peter 1:1)​

Seems pretty clear who Jesus is to me...
 
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DW1980

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I already commented, but want to add that I only like the NIV84, the new version sports their efforts to make a gender neutral Bible which I very much dislike.

It's not gender neutral, it's gender accurate. 95% of the 2011 NIV text is the same as the 1984 edition. It does not change any male pronouns for God. Where a word (usually adelpos/oi) was used in a way that is on a par with how we used to use "man" to refer to men and women, it's translated in a way that shows it's all people - which is what the word means. That means that the NIV is being more careful and accurate when it translates this as "brothers and sisters" rather than just "brothers". See https://www.thenivbible.com/niv-gender-neutral/

Consider 2 Tim 2:2 in the NIV and ESV:

And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people (anthropoi) who will also be qualified to teach others. (NIV)

…and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, (anthropoi) who will be able to teach others also. (ESV)​

Who is to receive the message? Men only? No, even the ESV footnote says, "The Greek word anthropoi can refer to both men and women, depending on the context"

The NIV is more accurate - unlike the ESV, you don't need to go to a footnote to see that the word refers to both men and women.
 
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Ken Rank

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The KJV and NIV have been the only books I started out with. It has came to my attention that the NIV has missing verses. And from online I am hearing the NIV and modern versions are Vatican versions.

Then I hear that some of the text of the KJV has been altered because King James was a bisexual and found some things offensive. Now this is just what I heard.

Now I am confused on what I should read or if I can even trust what I read if the words have been changed by man.
The NIV despite claims, is more a paraphrase then a translation. I am not really a fan of it... but if reading it blesses you, then do not allow anyone to steal that joy. That said, here is the most important thing to remember... there is >>NO<< perfect English translation, none. How can I say such a thing? Because anytime you bring one language into another you can't ALWAYS and fully get the entire meaning of every word. For example... in Hebrew the word "b'rit" is an agreement, generally between two or more people, and it is sealed in blood. What English word do you think best fits that meaning if you were a translator? A covenant? Well, that is an agreement between 2 or more but a covenant does not require blood, a b'rit does. How about testament? No, that generally would require the death of another to become enforceable. See, there really is no word in English that FULLY captures the meaning of b'rit.

That is just ONE EXAMPLE OK, I am not looking to get into a debate with anyone. I am simply trying to show that not every word or concept from one language will perfectly and always be taken into another language.

So, when you just want to READ... find the book that you feel reads best. But when you want to STUDY... compare translations and take no word for granted. Look words up in at least two different lexicons to make sure you have a full picture of that word. Go and see how and where words are used throughout the bible and consider that context as you read that word wherever it is you are reading it. Don't assume that reading only in English through a modern Western lens will reveal all of God's will for your life.

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Dorothy Mae

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The NIV is based off of the oldest MS, MS that the KJV translators did not have. Moreover it was the KJV translators whose sources were limited not the translators of the NIV.
The translators of the kjv didn’t have an agenda.
 
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DW1980

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The translators of the kjv didn’t have an agenda.
They did. This is seen in Royalist interpretations, and things that linger on to today such as not translating the word baptizo, their translation of "bishops" etc.
https://www.christianity.com/church...0/story-behind-king-james-bible-11630052.html
http://nickpage.co.uk/books/gods-da...-you-need-to-know-about-the-king-james-bible/
https://margmowczko.com/7-things-about-the-king-james-bible/

to suggest that the KJV translators had no agenda is blatantly dishonest. Their agenda was clearly stated and has never been hidden. Some of the agenda was actually of evil intent and other parts of it were quite innocent. But their agenda is clearly recorded and had two sources. The first was in King James’ commission, and the second was based on their methodology and is mainly recorded in their preface to the translation. There were 15 rules to be observed in the translation of the Bible. We shall only mention the ones most relevant to this discussion (the numbers in parentheses indicate the number applied by the translators – 1-15):

  • (1) The Bishops Bible was to be the basis of the new translation. Thus it was not to be a fresh translation based on the manuscripts but a revision of the Bishops Bible. Furthermore it was specified that the text of the Bishops Bible was to be retained as far as possible. This was unfortunate since the Bishops Bible was not the best existing English translation.
  • (2) The names of Bible characters were to conform as closely as possible to those in common use.21 This resulted in several anomalies. Thus “Elijah” appears as “Elias” in the New Testament. Specific problems were introduced when “Joshua” was twice referred to as “Jesus” in the New Testament instead of Joshua.
  • (3) Old ecclesiastical terms were to be retained. This meant that the translation had to conform to church practice at the time rather than be a true translation. This introduces several doctrinal problems which I will discuss in more detail later. “The implementation of this rule was to be a perpetual source of Puritan objections to the KJV” as they preferred more accurate rendering of several such words22.
  • (4) When there was more than one possible translation for a word the teachings of the (Anglican) church and the Church Fathers was to determine the translation rather than Scripture interpreting Scripture.
  • (6) The translation was not to have marginal notes. The Geneva Bible was the best translation of the time but James hated it because some of the notes were seen to be subversive of the monarchy. Marginal notes were permitted but these were simply to clarify the text and on the whole were not sectarian23. The removal of sectarian marginal notes is a good and commendable thing.
  • In addition to the written rules, there were a number of unwritten or implied rules that were just as binding as the 15 written rules. The one most relevant here, was that the translation was to be supportive of the monarchy. This after all, was the reason James rejected the Geneva Bible and stipulated that it was to be referred to as the very last resort. This adds a political color to the translation in addition to the ecclesiastical and cultural biases.
It is abundantly clear that the rules the translators worked under did not gender an approach to the work that would produce as clear a translation as possible. Rather, the rules gave a very specific color to the translation. This has, over the years, resulted in many errors in doctrine and practice. Things like the perpetuation of infant baptism, a Romanist hierarchy and structure in the church and the heresy of Heavy Shepherding all find their roots in these built-in mistranslations, based on these rules.
http://www.antonbosch.org/Articles/English 2010/KJO.html
 
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Dorothy Mae

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They did. This is seen in Royalist interpretations, and things that linger on to today such as not translating the word baptizo, their translation of "bishops" etc.
https://www.christianity.com/church...0/story-behind-king-james-bible-11630052.html
http://nickpage.co.uk/books/gods-da...-you-need-to-know-about-the-king-james-bible/
https://margmowczko.com/7-things-about-the-king-james-bible/

to suggest that the KJV translators had no agenda is blatantly dishonest. Their agenda was clearly stated and has never been hidden. Some of the agenda was actually of evil intent and other parts of it were quite innocent. But their agenda is clearly recorded and had two sources. The first was in King James’ commission, and the second was based on their methodology and is mainly recorded in their preface to the translation. There were 15 rules to be observed in the translation of the Bible. We shall only mention the ones most relevant to this discussion (the numbers in parentheses indicate the number applied by the translators – 1-15):
How come they left in the bits where the believers defied local authority or called the king a "fox" not meaning good looking? If that was their agenda, then the word "bishop" was pretty stupid as it would not accomplish it.

Those guys in Switzerland who did the Geneva Bible also interested in King James and his wishes? They were not in England you know.
  • (1) The Bishops Bible was to be the basis of the new translation. Thus it was not to be a fresh translation based on the manuscripts but a revision of the Bishops Bible. Furthermore it was specified that the text of the Bishops Bible was to be retained as far as possible. This was unfortunate since the Bishops Bible was not the best existing English translation.
  • (2) The names of Bible characters were to conform as closely as possible to those in common use.21 This resulted in several anomalies. Thus “Elijah” appears as “Elias” in the New Testament. Specific problems were introduced when “Joshua” was twice referred to as “Jesus” in the New Testament instead of Joshua.
  • (3) Old ecclesiastical terms were to be retained. This meant that the translation had to conform to church practice at the time rather than be a true translation. This introduces several doctrinal problems which I will discuss in more detail later. “The implementation of this rule was to be a perpetual source of Puritan objections to the KJV” as they preferred more accurate rendering of several such words22.
  • (4) When there was more than one possible translation for a word the teachings of the (Anglican) church and the Church Fathers was to determine the translation rather than Scripture interpreting Scripture.
  • (6) The translation was not to have marginal notes. The Geneva Bible was the best translation of the time but James hated it because some of the notes were seen to be subversive of the monarchy. Marginal notes were permitted but these were simply to clarify the text and on the whole were not sectarian23. The removal of sectarian marginal notes is a good and commendable thing.
  • In addition to the written rules, there were a number of unwritten or implied rules that were just as binding as the 15 written rules. The one most relevant here, was that the translation was to be supportive of the monarchy. This after all, was the reason James rejected the Geneva Bible and stipulated that it was to be referred to as the very last resort. This adds a political color to the translation in addition to the ecclesiastical and cultural biases.
Hard to believe since the disciples out and out said they were to obey man and not God. Cannot really think of a single verse that supports the monarchy except one and that is pretty weak and only applicable under particular circumstances. So they failed if that was their agenda.
It is abundantly clear that the rules the translators worked under did not gender an approach to the work that would produce as clear a translation as possible. Rather, the rules gave a very specific color to the translation. This has, over the years, resulted in many errors in doctrine and practice. Things like the perpetuation of infant baptism, a Romanist hierarchy and structure in the church and the heresy of Heavy Shepherding all find their roots in these built-in mistranslations, based on these rules.
http://www.antonbosch.org/Articles/English 2010/KJO.html
The baptism of babies was not in the KJV anymore than it is today. NO more and no less. It is a derived doctrine from the same Bible as always. And uh, the other heresies come from skipping verses or wanting the heresy such as OSAS despite what the rest of the authors wrote. The translations since the reformation did not generate any heresies that I can see. They came outside of the Bible or in spite of.

The problem with the NIV is the loss of the passages regarding the diety of Christ. That agenda is clearly coming from one source and it was not the guys writing in the margins.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The KJV and NIV have been the only books I started out with. It has came to my attention that the NIV has missing verses. And from online I am hearing the NIV and modern versions are Vatican versions.

Then I hear that some of the text of the KJV has been altered because King James was a bisexual and found some things offensive. Now this is just what I heard.

Now I am confused on what I should read or if I can even trust what I read if the words have been changed by man.

The NIV isn't "missing verses". To understand this it is important to first understand a few things:

There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament dating from between the 2nd century and the 15th century. This doesn't even include the many manuscripts of Scripture which were translated into other languages, such as Latin, Syriac, and Coptic, of which there are many. These manuscripts range from tiny fragments no larger than your thumbnail to entire and complete codices.

All of the manuscripts we have show differences in the text, these differences range from the very slight, such as perhaps spelling, all the way to very clear differences in readings--different words, different sentences. Sometimes these differences include entire lines, paragraphs, or even sections of text. For example, all of our oldest copies of the Gospel of John do not include the Pericope Adulterae (the story of the woman caught in adultery), and in some cases it is located in different places, including some manuscripts which include it in the Gospel of Luke. This has led many to believe that the Pericope Adulterae was not originally composed by John, but that it represents what would be known as a free-floating tradition. It eventually entered where it is in John's text much later. In another case we have the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8) which doesn't exist in any of the older manuscripts, and is almost certainly the result of a very late medieval addition to the text, originating as marginal note written by a scribe copying the text.

A lot of the time these differences, and also certain similarities between manuscripts, show different lineages, or families of manuscripts. And so scholars who have studied these things have been able to categorize them into different textual families or "text types". The two most well known text types are the Byzantine text type and the Alexandrian text type. The Byzantine text type represent what we might call a majority of our manuscripts, but they do not include our oldest manuscripts, the vast majority of the Byzantine manuscripts are more recent; conversely the Alexandrian texts are generally much older, but are fewer.

In the 1500's a number of early scholars, such as Erasmus of Rotterdam, undertook the work to produce a critical edition of the Greek New Testament by examining the available Greek manuscripts of the day. Erasmus' chief interest was to update the Vulgate, the Latin translation of the Bible which was originally made by St. Jerome in the 5th century, and the official Bible in use by the Roman Catholic Church. Over his lifetime Erasmus made five editions of his Novum Instrumentum Omne. It was Erasmus' work which Martin Luther took advantage of to translate the Bible into German, and also William Tyndale for his English translation. Others also made their own critical editions of the New Testament, including Theodore Beza and Robert Stephanus.

Beginning with William Tyndale translations of the Bible began to be made in English. Of these English translations we have the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, the Coverdale Bible, and the Bishop's Bible.

From 1568 to the turn of the 17th century the Bishop's Bible was the official, authorized translation of the English Bible for use in the Church of England. In the opening years of the 17th century, however, it was felt that it was time for an update to the Bishop's Bible, and so King James I of England ordered a new translation to be made. In 1611 the first copy of the Authorized Version (aka the King James Version) was published. The intent of the translators, in their own words, wasn't so much to make a new translation, but to improve upon the older translations. For their work on the New Testament they relied on three editions of Erasmus' critical Greek text, as well as the critical editions of Beza and Stephanus.

Together the editions of Erasmus, Beza, and Stephanus--specifically the readings chosen by the translators of the KJV of these--would come to be known as the Textus Receptus or "Received Text".

The KJV would undergo a series of updates and revisions over the next hundred and fifty years. The most important of these revisions was undertaken by the University of Oxford and published in 1769. This 1769 Oxford text is what you find today. Go to your local book store and pick up a copy of the King James Version and it is the 1769 Oxford text. It is what millions of people around the world are familiar with when it comes to the KJV.

The KJV was never the only English Bible, however. English Separatists, Nonconformists, and Puritans didn't exactly want to use the officially sanctioned Bible of the Church of England. The Puritans preferred the Geneva Bible. The Pilgrims who came to North America in 1620 brought with them, and read, the Geneva Bible, not the King James.

In the centuries since the KJV was translated we have discovered thousands of manuscripts which simply were not known at the time. As such scholars have been able to continue in the tradition of Erasmus, Beza, and Stephanus and examine manuscripts and produce critical Greek texts. One such example is the Westcott and Hort (WH), produced in the 19th century, which took advantage of the recently discovered ancient biblical codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. The translators of the NIV relied on the WH.

But, remember, the KJV and NIV are not the only translations out there. For someone interested in reading the Bible, I don't think I would recommend either. I am partial to the NRSV and ESV.

So, short answer: The NIV doesn't remove verses, it is that the KJV includes verses that are not not necessarily in the oldest manuscripts and possibly added later; not by the fault of the translators but because the source texts they worked with had them; and the translators of the NIV weren't removing anything, but their source texts didn't include them because their source texts included readings from older and different manuscripts which didn't have them.

The idea of a "Vatican version" is KJV-onlyist propganda language. It's a very silly argument, especially considering that the translators of the KJV relied on the official Roman Catholic Bible--the Vulgate--as part of their translations process. And the KJV agrees with the Vulgate and with the Douay-Rheims (the first officially authorized Catholic English translation, published in 1609-1610). If someone wants to accuse a translation of being a "Vatican version" that charge would fit the King James Version far better than the NIV. This kind of anti-Catholic nonsense argument is nothing more than manipulating fears of certain Protestant Fundamentalists who think Catholicism is some kind of scary bogeyman hiding in the closet. It has no place in legitimate discussion about the Bible.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Marvin Knox

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................King James was a bisexual and found some things offensive. Now this is just what I heard.
Whether James was bisexual or not I couldn't say for sure.

But I did hear that the Tower of London had unisex bathrooms during his reign.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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It's not gender neutral, it's gender accurate. 95% of the 2011 NIV text is the same as the 1984 edition. It does not change any male pronouns for God. Where a word (usually adelpos/oi) was used in a way that is on a par with how we used to use "man" to refer to men and women, it's translated in a way that shows it's all people - which is what the word means. That means that the NIV is being more careful and accurate when it translates this as "brothers and sisters" rather than just "brothers". See https://www.thenivbible.com/niv-gender-neutral/

Consider 2 Tim 2:2 in the NIV and ESV:

And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people (anthropoi) who will also be qualified to teach others. (NIV)

…and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, (anthropoi) who will be able to teach others also. (ESV)​

Who is to receive the message? Men only? No, even the ESV footnote says, "The Greek word anthropoi can refer to both men and women, depending on the context"

The NIV is more accurate - unlike the ESV, you don't need to go to a footnote to see that the word refers to both men and women.
I object to the gender neutral/gender accurate (so-named or dubbed by yourself).
There are other problems which made me reject the 2011 altogether however...many I have forgotten, but here are just a sampling:
Romans 16:1:
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. NIV 2011
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea. NIV 84

You do know the qualifications Paul/God lays out in I Timothy, correct?

I Peter 1:6-8:
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy... NIV 2011

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy... NIV 84
 
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Monk Brendan

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The comment on your last paragraph was pretty rude,disrespectful, not necessary and totally off topic to the original post.

But it's okay to paint Catholics by the same brush? Also rude, not necessary and totally off topic. But go ahead, far be it from me to show that Catholics can read the Bible, have spiritual discernment, and can quote John 3:16.
 
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Danielwright2311

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Its a fact that in order for them to legally write a new translation they had to change sentences and words to make it there own real translation.

This was by real admittance by the translators who wrote the NIV .

The NIV leaves out 16 entire verses!


1. Matthew 17:21: "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."



2. Matthew 18:11: "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."



3. Matthew 23:14: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."



4. Mark 7:16: "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."



5. Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."



6. Mark 9:46: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."



7. Mark 11:26: "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."



8. Mark 15:28: "And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."



9. Luke 17:36: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."



10. John 5:4: "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."



11. Acts 8:37: "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."



12. Acts 15:34: "Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."



13. Acts 24:7: "But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"



14. Acts 28:29: "And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."



15. Romans 16:24: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."



16. I John 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Now I am confused on what I should read or if I can even trust what I read if the words have been changed by man.
Do you realize you are asking on a forum open to the whole world which is under the god of this world (not Yahweh) ?
i.e.forums are notoriously less reliable than most any of the Bibles you already have read or have in your possession.
 
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Heavenhome

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But it's okay to paint Catholics by the same brush? Also rude, not necessary and totally off topic. But go ahead, far be it from me to show that Catholics can read the Bible, have spiritual discernment, and can quote John 3:16.

Got no idea where you going with this, it doesn't make sense other than deflecting my comment.
So you read the Bible? That's good I hope its the King James! ;)
 
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Heavenhome

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Its a fact that in order for them to legally write a new translation they had to change sentences and words to make it there own real translation.

This was by real admittance by the translators who wrote the NIV .

The NIV leaves out 16 entire verses!


1. Matthew 17:21: "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."



2. Matthew 18:11: "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."



3. Matthew 23:14: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."



4. Mark 7:16: "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."



5. Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."



6. Mark 9:46: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."



7. Mark 11:26: "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."



8. Mark 15:28: "And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."



9. Luke 17:36: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."



10. John 5:4: "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."



11. Acts 8:37: "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."



12. Acts 15:34: "Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."



13. Acts 24:7: "But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"



14. Acts 28:29: "And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."



15. Romans 16:24: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."



16. I John 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
That's right! And then they get the copyright on it and the cash......until they update it again and on it goes.....
 
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kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
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The translators of the kjv didn’t have an agenda.
You are unaware of King James' requirements of the translators? Not to mention their own disdain for the Geneva Bible.
 
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