The origins of atheism

[AV1611VET]

I am not Loudmouth, but when I was a Christian I communicated with and experienced God (Jesus, specifically). Indeed, Jesus spoke to me. Obviously, my current interpretation of those experiences is a little different now. I think that I was in fact talking to myself in the same way that we all have internal dialogues. If we are culturally conditioned to expect such a voice to be Jesus, and then we give it that name and treat it as if it is separate from us, guess what: it feels separate from us.

You remind me of the story I once heard about the little boy who went for a walk with his father.

The boy was holding his father's hand, but tripped and fell.

He got back up, took his father by the hand and went on.

Pretty soon he tripped again and fell.

He got back up, started to go on as before, but his father said,

"Son, why don't you let me hold your hand this time?"

 

[Cearbhall]

When people worshipped God at one time, and reaped the benefits of that worship, how is it that suddenly they drop Him like a hot potato when science comes slithering into their theology?

Since when are science and theology mutually exclusive? There are plenty of people who remain Christian at all levels of their scientific education and beyond.

 

[AV1611VET]

Since when are science and theology mutually exclusive?

One theologian placed the culminatin point with Isaac Newton.

I place the split at the time of the invention of the scientific method.

 

[Davian]

How so?

Semantics aside, if there are two different religions claiming that the universe started out with their particular god, those truth claims cancel out for me. But, religionists like yourself plough on through these forums portraying yourselves as infallible, looking rather silly, because you can't all be right.

 

[Davian]

I'm not obligating you to share my theological commitments because I know I can't control what you believe, but I can at least clearly explain what I believe in a rational way in order to help you make sense of it.

You can clearly explain what you believe? When will that happen?

 

[As I was saying]

So I'll gladly explain the difference between strawmen and the posts you called strawmen. No thanks necessary.

go right ahead

 

[As I was saying]

Are these researchers the same Ivy League professors who teach you? Or are they atheists you've spoken with like "Rob"?

All of the above

 

[Davian]

The evidence was there in your post but it is not evidence. That is a tautology if ever there was one.

Again you pass up the opportunity to show that your convictions are on "solid ground". No surprise there.

 

[Davian]

Both.

Is there anything that you are not capable of?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I am not Loudmouth, but when I was a Christian I communicated with and experienced God (Jesus, specifically). Indeed, Jesus spoke to me. Obviously, my current interpretation of those experiences is a little different now. I think that I was in fact talking to myself in the same way that we all have internal dialogues. If we are culturally conditioned to expect such a voice to be Jesus, and then we give it that name and treat it as if it is separate from us, guess what: it feels separate from us.

In the vast majority of experiences I've heard about from believers (christian or otherwise) what you've described is basically what I expected the "experience" to be.

What surprises me though, is that it's not hard to figure out of it's your own internal voice or actual communication with another entity. All you really need to do is the next time you "hear" it....try to talk over it with your own internal voice. It's nearly impossible to distinctly create two internal "voices" creating two comprehensive messages at the same time. So naturally, if you can talk over it...it's not just you.

The exception, of course, would be auditory hallucinations...but those are something else entirely.

 

[As I was saying]

Whew! I can see that I struck a nerve with you...and we both know that wouldn't have happened if I didn't speak the truth. Your post reads like a man desperately trying to convince himself.

I understand from my own personal experience that the transition to atheism was difficult...not all truths are comforting. I also know from the anecdotes of my fellow atheists that it was difficult for them too. The key thing for us was to remember that the truth matters...and ultimately one is better for accepting it even if it means losing the "christian" part of one's identity.

60 years old isn't too late to start accepting the truth and it's consequences.

Arrogance in the extreme to say the least. The only thing you struck with me is how you are a typical atheist who spends all their time denying the truth to make way for some fallacious ideology invented by man to replace God with themselves.

I thank God my transition to faith in him was easy because his claims were totally compelling and when a person loves you so much, what is not to like. Only a fool would deny themselves a love that is unconditional. If truth matters you ditched it very quickly for the lies of satan embodied in evolution and atheism. You have yet to realise obviously that satan is the father of lies and he couldn't tell the truth to save his skin. All he does is steal, kill and destroy and when it comes to atheism, he has done that big time because he has robbed you of the joy unspeakable full of glory that only God can give..

I accepted the truth and its consequences 60 years ago which I am so grateful for it means I avoided the lies of atheism and evolution. When you know the truth that sets you free, why change it for lies that bind you up? Not logical.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When people worshipped God at one time, and reaped the benefits of that worship, how is it that suddenly they drop Him like a hot potato when science comes slithering into their theology?

Let me be very specific.

At the point one gets saved and experiences:

1. The joy of their salvation (Psalm 51:12).
2. A refreshment (Acts 3:19).
3. Various spiritual benefits (Hebrews 6:4-5).

How is it that later, they not only choose to deconvert -- but then rail against those very benefits?

My guess would be that later they realized they imagined all those "benefits".

 

[As I was saying]

Again you pass up the opportunity to show that your convictions are on "solid ground". No surprise there.

And again you pass up the opportunity to say something intelligent to show that you can discuss something in depth. No surprise there.

 

[Davian]

No, you still get the demo. You are living it.

Now all we need from you is a testable, falsifiable hypothesis, to differentiate you from those in this thread that are simply proselytizing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Arrogance in the extreme to say the least. The only thing you struck with me is how you are a typical atheist who spends all their time denying the truth to make way for some fallacious ideology invented by man to replace God with themselves.

I thank God my transition to faith in him was easy because his claims were totally compelling and when a person loves you so much, what is not to like. Only a fool would deny themselves a love that is unconditional. If truth matters you ditched it very quickly for the lies of satan embodied in evolution and atheism. You have yet to realise obviously that satan is the father of lies and he couldn't tell the truth to save his skin. All he does is steal, kill and destroy and when it comes to atheism, he has done that big time because he has robbed you of the joy unspeakable full of glory that only God can give..

I accepted the truth and its consequences 60 years ago which I am so grateful for it means I avoided the lies of atheism and evolution. When you know the truth that sets you free, why change it for lies that bind you up? Not logical.

You don't know real freedom. You wouldn't know it if it was a knight in shining armor standing before you lol.

Seriously though, what freedoms have I lost by believing that god doesn't exist? You spoke of unconditional love...but I already have that with my wife. I don't need to pretend I have an imaginary friend who loves me...I have the real thing.

I can begin a list of freedoms you've lost in buying into the threadbare dogmas of an ancient Jewish cult...can you do the same for my lack of belief in a god?

 

[As I was saying]

Sorry. 2/3 of the world's population are not Christians and Christianity has been slowly declining the world over for several decades.

Yes that is right. Which means that one third is. Can you tell me how many atheists there are? One third???

And christianity is having a renaissance and the numbers converting to christianity is slowly but definitely increasing as I said in my post. A quote in the book was that the conversion to Christ by muslims in the numbers it is has not been known up to this point.

so what does that mean. Christianity is growing at a rate of knots especially when your implacable enemy is embracing it as it is.

But don't worry. You go ahead and convince yourself that christianity is dying if it make you happy.

 

[As I was saying]

You don't know real freedom. You wouldn't know it if it was a knight in shining armor standing before you lol.

Seriously though, what freedoms have I lost by believing that god doesn't exist? You spoke of unconditional love...but I already have that with my wife. I don't need to pretend I have an imaginary friend who loves me...I have the real thing.

I can begin a list of freedoms you've lost in buying into the threadbare dogmas of an ancient Jewish cult...can you do the same for my lack of belief in a god?

I will believe you when you list the freedoms I have lost which I know you can't so you lose.

 

[Cearbhall]

I was taken outside the demo and shown.

Sorry?

 

[As I was saying]

Is ignorance bliss?

In the case of atheists, most definitely.

 

[Cearbhall]

In the case of atheists, most definitely.

Certain soft atheists, perhaps, at least from your perspective. I don't see how a person could be a hard atheist, by definition, if he or she were ignorant of the concept of deities.