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The RCC born in 313 AD? (2)

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MoreCoffee

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Actually the Council of Trent canonized the scriptures for the Catholic Church, although there had been little doubt about the 66 books of the Bible prior to the CoT and some division concerning the Deuterocanonical books.

What the council of Trent did and what it explicitly says it did was to affirm the canon proposed in north Africa in the late fourth century AD. This idea that Trent canonised scripture for Catholics is a nonsense.

Session IV 8th April 1546 AD
Decree Concerning The Canonical Scriptures

The holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding, keeps this constantly in view, namely, that the purity of the Gospel may be preserved in the Church after the errors have been removed.

This [Gospel], of old promised through the Prophets in the Holy Scriptures,[1] our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promulgated first with His own mouth, and then commanded it to be preached by His Apostles to every creature[2] as the source at once of all saving truth and rules of conduct.

It also clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves,[3] the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand.

Following, then, the examples of the orthodox Fathers, it receives and venerates with a feeling of piety and reverence all the books both of the Old and New Testaments, since one God is the author of both; also the traditions, whether they relate to faith or to morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church in unbroken succession.

It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]

They are the following:

Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.

Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.

Let all understand, therefore, in what order and manner the council, after having laid the foundation of the confession of faith, will proceed, and who are the chief witnesses and supports to whom it will appeal in conforming dogmas and in restoring morals in the Church.​
 
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~Anastasia~

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Actually the Council of Trent canonized the scriptures for the Catholic Church, although there had been little doubt about the 66 books of the Bible prior to the CoT and some division concerning the Deuterocanonical books.

Oh? I'm not that familiar with Catholic history. But did the Council of Trent actually change what books were considered canon?

I believe the Catholic Church uses the Latin Vulgate a a textual base, and that would have been later. And I know the book of Revelation was of later acceptance.

But otherwise, has the canon actually changed from the early Church's determinations? I wasn't aware that Trent had made such changes?

If so, then I will retract my statement as it applies to the Catholic Church, but I'm not sure if that's the case?
 
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~Anastasia~

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What the council of Trent did and what it explicitly says it did was to affirm the canon proposed in north Africa in the late fourth century AD. This idea that Trent canonised scripture for Catholics is a nonsense.

Thanks, MC. By the time I posted, you had already answered the point.

I'm glad to hear this is the case. I knew that I wasn't aware that the canon had been changed in the Catholic Church at such a late date.
 
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What the council of Trent did and what it explicitly says it did was to affirm the canon proposed in north Africa in the late fourth century AD. This idea that Trent canonised scripture for Catholics is a nonsense.
Session IV 8th April 1546 AD
Decree Concerning The Canonical Scriptures

The holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding, keeps this constantly in view, namely, that the purity of the Gospel may be preserved in the Church after the errors have been removed.

This [Gospel], of old promised through the Prophets in the Holy Scriptures,[1] our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promulgated first with His own mouth, and then commanded it to be preached by His Apostles to every creature[2] as the source at once of all saving truth and rules of conduct.

It also clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves,[3] the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand.

Following, then, the examples of the orthodox Fathers, it receives and venerates with a feeling of piety and reverence all the books both of the Old and New Testaments, since one God is the author of both; also the traditions, whether they relate to faith or to morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church in unbroken succession.

It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]

They are the following:

Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.

Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.

Let all understand, therefore, in what order and manner the council, after having laid the foundation of the confession of faith, will proceed, and who are the chief witnesses and supports to whom it will appeal in conforming dogmas and in restoring morals in the Church.​

Thanks. Apparently St. Jerome had his misgivings concerning the canon of the OT when he translated it into Latin. Jerome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

220px-Domenico_Ghirlandaio_-_St_Jerome_in_his_study.jpg
 
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Targaryen

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What the council of Trent did and what it explicitly says it did was to affirm the canon proposed in north Africa in the late fourth century AD. This idea that Trent canonised scripture for Catholics is a nonsense.
Session IV 8th April 1546 AD
Decree Concerning The Canonical Scriptures

The holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding, keeps this constantly in view, namely, that the purity of the Gospel may be preserved in the Church after the errors have been removed.

This [Gospel], of old promised through the Prophets in the Holy Scriptures,[1] our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promulgated first with His own mouth, and then commanded it to be preached by His Apostles to every creature[2] as the source at once of all saving truth and rules of conduct.

It also clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves,[3] the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand.

Following, then, the examples of the orthodox Fathers, it receives and venerates with a feeling of piety and reverence all the books both of the Old and New Testaments, since one God is the author of both; also the traditions, whether they relate to faith or to morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church in unbroken succession.

It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]

They are the following:

Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.

Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.

Let all understand, therefore, in what order and manner the council, after having laid the foundation of the confession of faith, will proceed, and who are the chief witnesses and supports to whom it will appeal in conforming dogmas and in restoring morals in the Church.​

1546 and yet the "66" books of the Bible as protestants would understand it really didn't become in effect till non-Apocryphal editions of the King James bible were reproduced and that was well into the 1600's.

I too am about bbbbbb's statement to the effect.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Thanks. Apparently St. Jerome had his misgivings concerning the canon of the OT when he translated it into Latin. Jerome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

220px-Domenico_Ghirlandaio_-_St_Jerome_in_his_study.jpg

He may have had misgivings at some point in his life, he did spend a lot of time with Jewish Rabbis learning Hebrew so their influence may have brought on some doubts. Nevertheless the Vulgate contained the complete canon received by Catholics. The Vulgate was used in the Catholic Church in Rome and elsewhere, where Latin was spoken, as the liturgical text of scripture. It was used from some time in the early fifth century AD until the mid twentieth century.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by MoreCoffee
What the council of Trent did and what it explicitly says it did was to affirm the canon proposed in north Africa in the late fourth century AD. This idea that Trent canonised scripture for Catholics is a nonsense..........*snip............
Thanks. Apparently St. Jerome had his misgivings concerning the canon of the OT when he translated it into Latin. Jerome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

220px-Domenico_Ghirlandaio_-_St_Jerome_in_his_study.jpg
Jerome is a fascinating fellow.....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7234016-13/#post46966950
Jerome and banning Translations

Everyone here pretty much knows I am a stickler about Translations and most arguements on GT appear to stem more on oral traditions handed down as I am sure not everyone had a Bible to read during the early centuries.

But this simply SHOCKED me, as after the Canon had been finalized, why is it that only Jerome and the RCC had authority to TRANSLATE it? Any thoughts on this and how accurate is Jerome's translation compared to others we now have today? And please just keep this on the early Translations of the Bible for now. Thanks.

http://biblelight.net/banned.htm

............In 1408 the third synod of Oxford, England, banned unauthorized English translations of the Bible and decreed that possession of English translation's had to be approved by diocesan authorities. The Oxford council declared:
"It is dangerous, as St. Jerome declares, to translate the text of Holy Scriptures out of one idiom into another, since it is not easy in translations to preserve exactly the same meaning in all things.

We therefore command and ordain that henceforth no one translate the text of Holy Scripture into English or any other language as a book, booklet, or tract, of this kind lately made in the time of the said John Wyclif or since, or that hereafter may be made, either in part or wholly, either publicly or privately, under pain of excommunication, until such translation shall have been approved and allowed by the Provincial Council. He who shall act otherwise let him be punished as an abettor of heresy and error."...................

The Genesis Flood: Why the Bible Says It Must be Local

...........When you read an English translation of the biblical account of the flood, you will undoubtedly notice many words and verses that seem to suggest that the waters covered all of planet earth.3 However, one should note that today we look at everything from a global perspective, whereas the Bible nearly always refers to local geography. You may not be able to determine this fact from our English translations, so we will look at the original Hebrew, which is the word of God................
 
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He may have had misgivings at some point in his life, he did spend a lot of time with Jewish Rabbis learning Hebrew so their influence may have brought on some doubts. Nevertheless the Vulgate contained the complete canon received by Catholics. The Vulgate was used in the Catholic Church in Rome and elsewhere, where Latin was spoken, as the liturgical text of scripture. It was used from some time in the early fifth century AD until the mid twentieth century.

Apparently it carried over for him so that he believed only the Hebrew scriptures to be canonical and he isolated the Deuterocanonical scriptures as being secondary in nature. It remained a rather touchy issue for some until the CoT nailed it down for all time.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Apparently it carried over for him so that he believed only the Hebrew scriptures to be canonical and he isolated the Deuterocanonical scriptures as being secondary in nature. It remained a rather touchy issue for some until the CoT nailed it down for all time.

I don't think that saint Jerome held a life long commitment to the Hebrew old testament. Read his letters and the introductions to the books of the bible that he wrote.
 
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I don't think that saint Jerome held a life long commitment to the Hebrew old testament. Read his letters and the introductions to the books of the bible that he wrote.

He did change his opinions over time, as most of us do, so it is debatable as to what his final thoughts were. However, because of his varying views, there were some who followed after him who held to a duality of significance within the OT canon. Our friend Martin Luther was one of those.
 
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He did change his opinions over time, as most of us do, so it is debatable as to what his final thoughts were. However, because of his varying views, there were some who followed after him who held to a duality of significance within the OT canon. Our friend Martin Luther was one of those.

Saint Jerome is one of many fourth and fifth century saints. It is not wise to follow one man's opinions when they vary from the teaching of the church.
 
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Saint Jerome is one of many fourth and fifth century saints. It is not wise to follow one man's opinions when they vary from the teaching of the church.

That is interesting in light of the fact that Jerome's Latin Vulgate was the standard Catholic translation for centuries. In any event, the church did not have a teaching concerning the exact canon of scripture in the fourth and fifth century. Thus, Jerome was able to hold his opinions in good conscience, knowing that they did not vary from the teaching of the church.
 
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Saint Jerome is one of many fourth and fifth century saints. It is not wise to follow one man's opinions when they vary from the teaching of the church.

odd
this seems to be one of the ONLY topics where Protestants will quote someone from the 4th century?

normally all you hear is about the Apostles and then they jump ahead 1,200 years
 
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MoreCoffee

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That is interesting in light of the fact that Jerome's Latin Vulgate was the standard Catholic translation for centuries. In any event, the church did not have a teaching concerning the exact canon of scripture in the fourth and fifth century. Thus, Jerome was able to hold his opinions in good conscience, knowing that they did not vary from the teaching of the church.

In my parish we use the Jerusalem bible (modified for the liturgy) but we don't follow the opinions of the translators as if they were apostolic tradition. I don't see why Jerome's opinions (when they vary from the teaching of the Church today) have any special value. And the fact is that the Vulgate included all 73 books of the canonical scriptures and some more (in appendices). So I don't see how a 66 book bible comes into this.
 
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odd
this seems to be one of the ONLY topics where Protestants will quote someone from the 4th century?

normally all you hear is about the Apostles and then they jump ahead 1,200 years

Actually, if you have been following various other threads you will find some well-read Protestants who are quite willing and adept at quoting the ECF's on various things such as the doctrine of the PV of Mary or the Assumption of Mary.
 
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In my parish we use the Jerusalem bible (modified for the liturgy) but we don't follow the opinions of the translators as if they were apostolic tradition. I don't see why Jerome's opinions (when they vary from the teaching of the Church today) have any special value. And the fact is that the Vulgate included all 73 books of the canonical scriptures and some more (in appendices). So I don't see how a 66 book bible comes into this.

I don't either, to be honest, but then, the matter was settled for you at the Council of Trent so that present Catholic doctrine reflects those conclusions and not those of earlier Catholic scholars who happened to disagree with the current position. I rather doubt Saint Jerome would have been determined to be a saint if he lived at the present time and held his particular views.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I don't either, to be honest, but then, the matter was settled for you at the Council of Trent so that present Catholic doctrine reflects those conclusions and not those of earlier Catholic scholars who happened to disagree with the current position. I rather doubt Saint Jerome would have been determined to be a saint if he lived at the present time and held his particular views.

Portions of Trent's canons are doctrine and dogma in the church but the canon of scripture was decided more than one thousand years before Trent. But if your concern is for when the canon was declared dogmatically then either the council of Florence or Trent would do, though Florance did define the canon for the Jacobites, and by implication for everybody, while Trent declared the canon as counter to the errors in that matter that were being taught by some among the Protesters who eventually came to be known as Protestants.
 
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BobRyan

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Was Scripture canonized before the Great Schism of 1054? Of course?

That's kind of my point. When the majority of the canon was decided, it was decided by THE Church.

If the church decided tomorrow on some aspect of scripture - it does not mean that nobody was reading scripture until the RCC met to discussed it "again".

The first century NT was already accepted as scripture according to the witness of Peter.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Originally Posted by By Faith Alone

GOD gave us the Bible.

Would you be willing to describe the process by which He did so?

(And FWIW, I wouldn't be arguing that the Catholic Church specifically gave us the Bible.)

2Peter 1:19-20 "holy men of old" (not Catholics) "moved by the Holy Spirit" (not Catholic) "spoke from God"

Which excludes "and then waited many centuries for a Catholic council to tell them about it so they could believe in it".

That is a key detail often missed in this catholic argument.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Targaryen

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If the church decided tomorrow on some aspect of scripture - it does not mean that nobody was reading scripture until the RCC met to discussed it "again".

The first century NT was already accepted as scripture according to the witness of Peter.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

Or in your case, skewing or overlooking key ones, right?
 
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