Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
I think the implication is obvious, since God is infinitely beyond us, that for him to desire something is infinitely beyond us in at least scope, and therefore, along with his other attributes, it is of another sort of use or meaning from what we think of as desire. That is poorly put, but I hope you get what I mean.
I'm wondering how you see the philosophical descriptions of his attributes. Particularly Aseity, Simplicity and Immanence/Transcendence.
I love the concept of Divine Simplicity, though to me it is not so much instructive, but a POV thing, useful to keep my notions in check. The main thing I get from it is the reminder that none of his other attributes is of itself, but is, rather, OUR view, our consideration, of something about God. WE are the ones who must get specific about things in order to hold some semblance of a concept about them. We don't know how to think rationally, otherwise. That method may impose precision, but not accuracy.
But the reason for my comments to which you responded was to magnify the combination (as if that was an appropriate term) of these things, which Simplicity asserts, particularly the combination of Immanence and Transcendence both being necessary implications of the Aseity that creates.
—If (and since) The Almighty creates, then what he created "ex nihilo" is not of itself anything, but is "of" or "from" God —not pantheistically or of any "new age" style philosophy— but its very definition and existence is in every detail continuously produced or "sustained" by The Almighty himself ...thus, Immanence and Transcendence both.
The main thing I get from it is the reminder that none of his other attributes is of itself, but is, rather, OUR view, our consideration, of something about God. WE are the ones who must get specific about things in order to hold some semblance of a concept about them. We don't know how to think rationally, otherwise. That method may impose precision, but not accuracy.
But the reason for my comments to which you responded was to magnify the combination (as if that was an appropriate term) of these things, which Simplicity asserts, particularly the combination of Immanence and Transcendence both being necessary implications of the Aseity that creates.
—If (and since) The Almighty creates, then what he created "ex nihilo" is not of itself anything, but is "of" or "from" God —not pantheistically or of any "new age" style philosophy— but its very definition and existence is in every detail continuously produced or "sustained" by The Almighty himself ...thus, Immanence and Transcendence both.
I'm still not sure of what "First-Order Logic" means, other than that it does not deal in loosely-held meanings. So, I'd have to say no, for fear that I might be taken to be contradicting myself!
I think the implication is obvious, since God is infinitely beyond us, that for him to desire something is infinitely beyond us in at least scope, and therefore, along with his other attributes, it is of another sort of use or meaning from what we think of as desire. That is poorly put, but I hope you get what I mean.
I'm wondering how you see the philosophical descriptions of his attributes. Particularly Aseity, Simplicity and Immanence/Transcendence.
Do you believe that God randomly designated some for hell and some for heaven and then, thusly, of His design actively disabled the ability of the Hellbound group from being able to come to Jesus?
As in, God denied the Blood of Jesus to the damned, when he died on the cross… so He therefore only died for those that He created for heaven?
Do you believe that God randomly designated some for hell and some for heaven and then, thusly, of His design actively disabled the ability of the Hellbound group from being able to come to Jesus?
Nothing random about it at all. God has very specific persons in mind for every very specific purpose for which he made each. Also, none of us has any ability in and of himself to do anything. ("Apart from me you can do nothing" is not hyperbole. God establishes and sustains the existence of every fact.) They had no such ability to come to God, for him to disable it. THEY actively choose it. ALWAYS.
Your construction here implies that they were erstwhile redeemed, but that God denied them --dare I say-- the chance at Heaven. There is no such thing as chance. That is only our shorthand for, "I don't know".
They were not at any time to be redeemed, since they were made for other purposes.
Nothing random about it at all. God has very specific persons in mind for every very specific purpose for which he made each. Also, none of us has any ability in and of himself to do anything. ("Apart from me you can do nothing" is not hyperbole. God establishes and sustains the existence of every fact.) They had no such ability to come to God, for him to disable it. THEY actively choose it. ALWAYS.
Your construction here implies that they were erstwhile redeemed, but that God denied them --dare I say-- the chance at Heaven. There is no such thing as chance. That is only our shorthand for, "I don't know".
They were not at any time to be redeemed, since they were made for other purposes.
No, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 explicitly says that God wants all people to be redeemed. The fact that many are not is not indictive of God not providing them the means of salvation.
God desires to save everyone, conditioned on them believing in Him. As an analogy, a salesmen may truly desire that everyone receive their product, conditioned on them paying for it, of course. God desires that everyone meet His condition for eternal life because He loves everyone, and has provided an Unlimited Atonement in order to make it possible for anyone to become saved.
Per 1 Timothy 2:3-4 that you quoted, God sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him, but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely, but many resist.
Calvinists will object because they take a fatalist view and believe that God's will is determined by what happens. Fatalism is by definition not falsified based upon what happens, but it is contradicted by scripture as much of what God desires for mankind was not accomplished.
Now let us be clear as to the meaning of the word “salvation” in the Bible. What is the objective of salvation?
This may not be easily understood by new believers because they lack an accurate knowledge of what salvation is.
According to the Bible, salvation is related to the world, not to hell.
The opposite of eternal life is perdition, while the opposite of salvation is the world. We are to be saved out of the world.
As long as we belong to the world, we are in the state of perdition.
It is imperative for us to understand man’s state before God. People of the world today need not do anything to cause them to perish.
No one is required to kill in order to perish; nor by not killing will any be spared from perdition. The whole world is perishing, but God is pulling out some from among the perishing.
So far as the whole world is concerned, it is already damned; but so far as individuals are concerned, this one and that one are being saved.
It is not separating a flock of one hundred into fifty sheep and fifty goats; rather, it is netting some fish out of a sea of fish. All those that are caught in the net are saved while those that remain in the sea are yet lost. Therefore, in answering the question of whether one is saved or lost, the issue does not rest on one’s personal conduct;
it is instead settled by the person’s whereabouts. If he is in the boat, he is saved; if he is still in the sea, he is lost. It makes no difference if one is good or bad, a gentleman or a villain, with or without conscience. As long as he is in the world, he is lost. If he has not come out, has not left that place which is under judgment, he is a condemned sinner."
Nothing random about it at all. God has very specific persons in mind for every very specific purpose for which he made each. Also, none of us has any ability in and of himself to do anything. ("Apart from me you can do nothing" is not hyperbole. God establishes and sustains the existence of every fact.) They had no such ability to come to God, for him to disable it. THEY actively choose it. ALWAYS.
Your construction here implies that they were erstwhile redeemed, but that God denied them --dare I say-- the chance at Heaven. There is no such thing as chance. That is only our shorthand for, "I don't know".
They were not at any time to be redeemed, since they were made for other purposes.
I fervently disagree with your final conclusions. Either God did die for all, or He didn’t.
God’s Love to all mankind is the most sacred theological duty of any theologian.
We supply rebellion, God supplies forgiveness.
We must REPENT active verb, change our mind… God sent His Son to Draw All mankind to Him. Jesus Died for us. It is not well that mankind would ask for more than that. We do have a part in our salvation… and that is to Change our minds towards God. Then… Sealed with The Holy Spirit of Christ. (Romans 8:9)
After that (1 John 2:27)
This means God mediates our teaching. Paul ardently has really severe warnings against instituting any other form of learning in between us and God.
We then, grow in relationship with Jesus, as Jesus desires with Every single human being ever created.
His purpose for all includes knowing Him and being saved.
1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
No, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 explicitly says that God wants all people to be redeemed. The fact that many are not is not indictive of God not providing them the means of salvation.
God desires to save everyone, conditioned on them believing in Him. As an analogy, a salesmen may truly desire that everyone receive their product, conditioned on them paying for it, of course. God desires that everyone meet His condition for eternal life because He loves everyone, and has provided an Unlimited Atonement in order to make it possible for anyone to become saved.
No, as you have been told many times, and have yet to do anything to refute what you were told, but only to deny it, that the "all" of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 contextually has to mean all sorts of people, such as those in authority.
Which passage are you using to infer that God did die for all? In what way is "all" used in that passage, contextually? Grammatically, what is the passage saying?
We must REPENT active verb, change our mind… God sent His Son to Draw All mankind to Him. Jesus Died for us. It is not well that mankind would ask for more than that. We do have a part in our salvation… and that is to Change our minds towards God. Then… Sealed with The Holy Spirit of Christ. (Romans 8:9)
Romans 8:9 says, "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ." What has that to do with the construction you sequence as you do? And are you considering the rest of what Romans, and in this context, Romans 8 and 9 in particular, say? What do you do with the fact those who have not the mind of the Spirit of Christ are unable to please God nor to submit to God's law, and are at enmity with God?
Whether or not we must repent is not in question, but whether or not our repentance is done in and of ourselves, and whether or not it is possible to repent without God changing the person inside by the Spirit of God. And it is also worth discussing whether or not repentance is a cause, or only an effect of regeneration. Merely asserting that it is a cause of salvation lacks proof.
1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." How does that translate to mean, "God mediates our teaching."? --What do you even mean by that? What does that, and the fact that "Paul ardently has really severe warnings against instituting any other form of learning in between us and God" have to do with the question at hand?
Where is your proof that Jesus desires relationship with "Every single human being ever created."?, and what relationship is it, that Jesus desires with every single human being ever created? That is, what do you mean by the word, 'relationship', there? And what do you mean by 'desires' in that context?
No, as you have been told many times, and have yet to do anything to refute what you were told, but only to deny it, that the "all" of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 contextually has to mean all sorts of people, such as those in authority.
Listen to yourself. Amuse us all and go ahead and present your argument on how the plain text in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 does not mean what it is translated to plainly state. This problem for Calvinists has spread all over the NT.
Calvinists reject scriptures that shows God's universal provision. There are many NT passages that reference terms translated as "world", "everyone", "all men", "all people", and "all" which mean "all people without exception" in regards to God's love and provision. I provide several examples below. In some of these passages where those terms are repeated, Calvinists cling to an "all men without exception" for the first use, but not in subsequent uses (See 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 1 Corinthians 15:22, Romans 11:32, and Romans 5:18) even though the same original greek word is reused.
1 Timothy 4:10 God is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.,
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Which passage are you using to infer that God did die for all? In what way is "all" used in that passage, contextually? Grammatically, what is the passage saying?
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him
It's this simple, Let us now assume your stance into this passage. If pas is (Part or Some), this leaves another group of implication outside of the Pas or Kosmon(s)... Therefore... let us render the passage to assuage your personal belief and read it as it would, then flow, from 3:16
(Paraphrase of Doctrinal Election into 3:16 - 3:17 For, God so Loved the Elect part of the World, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that the Elect might not perish, but have everlasting life. For the Father did not send his Son... (We cannot re-write "into the Kosmon(s)", because there is a preposition that indicates traveling from Heaven to Earth, thus we know that Kosmon(s) MUST be rendered with the dignity it is distinguished by, per John the Revelator's Grammar. This Kosmon(s) must be rendered as the Entiretly of All Creation, as Colossians 1:15-17 states... Therefore, while it is indeed theologically possible to reconstruct John 3:16 if taken as a singular writing, apart from all scripture, it is theologically demanded, no, Gramatticaly demanded, with theological knowledge, that 3:17's 2 initial Kosmon(s) demand to be seen as Entry into All of Creation... Now.. To continue....
(Paraphrase of Doctrinal Election into 3:16 - 3:17 For, God so Loved the Elect part of the World, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that the Elect might not perish, but have everlasting life. For the Father did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the Elect might be saved through Him.
The only immovable (The Worlds) implies that The Father's Will of sending The Son from Heaven into the World (All of Creation) NOT to Condemn (All of Creation) then travels to a possibly movable (Kosmon(s)) which is why I rendered it to Elect, for your convictions sake.
Now, remember that earlier, we discussed that Part implies another Part? In reference to the minor rendering of Kosmon(s) and Pas.
The phrase: "For the Father did not send His Son into All of Creation to Condemn All of Creation, but in order that the Elect might be saved through Him", stipulates that the Father's will was not to condemn All of Creation, but to Save the Elect. If All of Creation is under the Father's desire to NOT be condemned, to insinuate that PART of Creation is Thus condemned, by acknowledging the true implications of Pas and Kosmon(s) as Part... we see that Part is Elect and Part is Reprobate, therefore, the Part that is Reprobate, would thus be condemned by The Son's Crucifixion. This, then pits the Father against the Son. While the Father desires NO Condemnation, the Son is thus Condemning, by the action of Salvation towards the Elect.
Now, Theosophically, one could read into this interpretation with hopes to re-establish that All of Creation isn't being condemned, because Part of Creation is being saved... However, forensically, we have 3 powerful verses that clarify this matter, which Determinist's are all too familiar with.
1 Timothy 4:10 God is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.,
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
This is scriptural forensic evidence that John meant All of Creation, within John 3:16... because, even if you altered the verbiage of this passage, it denotes 2 groups, then specifies that BOTH are Salvically Loved, by the Blood Shed of Jesus Christ. This means Repentance of Libertarian Volition IS REQUIRED to become Part of those that are transitioned from Lost to Saved.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
This one is Robust... it is ignored by the Determinist. The major issue with ignoring it, is that Peter didn't come up with this all by himself, under impression of the Holy Spirit of Christ. He was actually quoting a passage from the Old Testament...
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Theosophically, per Reformed consensus, one would thus say... this is to Israel, which is the Body of Christ... but if that were true we have a major issue! YH-H swears by His own Life, then specifies that HE has NO pleasure in the death of the WICKED, but That the Wicked turn from his way and live. This is a specific slap in the face of the doctrine of Total Depravity. This insinuates that the Totally Depraved does have the Libertarian Volition to Turn Back (Repent: Change one's Mind). This has YH-H begging and pleading like a Lover... because He says Turn back, twice. Now, the act of God going up to a straying Lover and "Forcing (her)" (Any Volition) would be similar to a Woman walking away from Her former Lover, and the Former Lover physically restrains her, against her will. This is called domestic abuse. God doesn't do that White Undershirt wearing dude, on COPS at 3am kind of stuff.
Ezekiel denies that the Wicked are "Spiritually Immobilized" from Repenting, unless God is naïve enough to Fight against His own "Mechanisms" implied by Determinism. A solid counter argument would be to say... oh, and God fighting against God installed Genuine Libertarian Volition isn't the same thing? I would first counter with this verse: Gen 6:3... Then, I would say... God is the "Gardener" (HUSBAND) of All creation. Do we have scripture that says this? John 15:1 This is a wink to ALL of us being God's Cherished Bride. Unfortunately, we all are a bunch of Harlots! God forgave His unfaithful Bride... or one could say, God forgives each of His unfaithful Brides... Because Spiritually if God drove a Harley, we would sit in the Metaphorical Back.
One Bonus Verse: This isn't a Re-Run. God is rejoicing with all of Heaven, in real time. (How is this possible? Remember what I said on that other thread? I don't know. I'm not God. I'm not the Creator.
Luke 15:7 Jesus continued, “In the same way, there will be a glorious celebration in heaven over the rescue of one lost sinner who repents, comes back home, and returns to the fold—more so than for all the righteous people who never strayed away.”
If one tiny infinitesimal fiber of God's Being is deviated from LOVE, OMNIBENEVOLANCE and towards Malicious Capriciousness... We are all, I promise you, 100%... in for Fire, Brimstone and Eternal Conscious Torment.
Romans 8:9 says, "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ." What has that to do with the construction you sequence as you do? And are you considering the rest of what Romans, and in this context, Romans 8 and 9 in particular, say? What do you do with the fact those who have not the mind of the Spirit of Christ are unable to please God nor to submit to God's law, and are at enmity with God?
Whether or not we must repent is not in question, but whether or not our repentance is done in and of ourselves, and whether or not it is possible to repent without God changing the person inside by the Spirit of God. And it is also worth discussing whether or not repentance is a cause, or only an effect of regeneration. Merely asserting that it is a cause of salvation lacks proof.
Repentance is us of OUR Libertarian Volition, in simplest terms to evangelize: Surrendering to the Sufficiency of Jesus, in recognition of our utter failure. This lifts our personal vail of Hypocrisy, and presents us Sincere to our Savior. He, then, indeed , Grants us (The very reason Romans 8:9 is one of my favorite verses). Once Christ has dominion, and establishes Tabernacle inside of us.... The Potter Goes to work, Bold faith is established, and the Lion has us in His very Mouth, as a Mother Lioness carries a cub.
1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." How does that translate to mean, "God mediates our teaching."? --What do you even mean by that? What does that, and the fact that "Paul ardently has really severe warnings against instituting any other form of learning in between us and God" have to do with the question at hand?
Of all extra biblical authors, after Canon was established in literal human Blood (Heretics were slaughtered)... not one shoved their words into Scripture, because they feared God, and despite all of their opinions, that bodes well for them. 1 John 2:27 means that God IS Tabernacle inside of you, and Begs us to reject all extra scriptural writings and ideas (not directing this at you, only answering the question)... OUTSIDE of Cannon... and Seek HIM out with Prayer, then devour scripture with the assistance of the very TRUTH that Authored Scripture. This scares some people, but this is why John ends that thought with... "It is true and is no lie."
Where is your proof that Jesus desires relationship with "Every single human being ever created."?, and what relationship is it, that Jesus desires with every single human being ever created? That is, what do you mean by the word, 'relationship', there? And what do you mean by 'desires' in that context?
Spiritually Speaking Scripture introduces Adam, who is deemed to be better off, not alone. Infact, it is said, it is not good that Man be Alone.
Remember the Second Adam? Heb 2:14 .... do you see the parallels with Genesis 3? Adam ate of the Fruit, because Eve gave it to him. That is all scripture really says, at that point. But... I do know a good verse for this: 2 Cor 5:21.......
Want to sit God down in a chair and know His Mind? God allowed Paul to do so... and John verified it. 1 John 4:8 states, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love" God is unwilling to step apart from Love. God is no Hypocrite... and because this is so, we know that when God told us to LOVE our Enemies, with the added revelation of anyone not loving being not of God... We know that EVERY single thing God does is about and out of Love. Song of Solomon is actually a Metaphor for God's Love for Us, and so much more. ONE FLESH.... Can you think of SOMEONE who BECAME ONE FLESH in a VERY Spiritual Way, with ALL of Humanity?
Oh yes... God's Mind. 1 Cor 13.. It's about God's very Good Character.
I hope this is received, at the very least, in Love. All Love to you, Brother that rests in the Good Lion's Mouth.... (Not the bad lions mouth that goes to and fro seeking to devour)
