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Ethics & Morality
Kid's Corporal Punishment - a Risk to Mental Health
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<blockquote data-quote="stevevw" data-source="post: 77679677" data-attributes="member: 342064"><p>What do you mean by dominance because individuals and groups can dominate a particular sector over other individuals and groups naturally in the way society self organises. A relationship can have a dominant partner personality wise and the other partner is happy for them to take the lead. Natural dominance hierarchies form for say strength where the stronger and more powerful dominate certain sectors of society naturally.</p><p></p><p>I am not sure what you mean when you put ; relationships of control. This seems like your implying "relationships of control" is a seperate and independent factor in abuse from dominance hierarchies. If this is the case then this is also misleading as "relationships of control" are not automatically or inherently abusive and are more often inherently non abusive.</p><p></p><p>Control is not a dirty word and signifies abuse. Life is full of controls and is needed to organise society to keep law, order and productivity without breaking down into disorder, anarchy, and chaos.</p><p></p><p>Many hierarchies. There is no evidence that the majority are controlling in an abusive way. They are certainly controlling in many ways but control is not abusive perse. You have to clarify what exactly is the measure. You also have to clarify is a hierarchy is abusive does that mean we get rid of that hierarchy.</p><p></p><p>If not then were should not be saying the hierarchy itself is abusive but rather a good and healthy hierarchy is being abused and we need to put in measures to ensure the same situation is not abused. You don't clarify these things which leaves it open to interpretation and of course some ideologues will run with that and claim all hierarchies and any difference in status, level or control is abusive.</p><p></p><p>So does a Marriage, partnership or any relationship where "control of one person by another - as a value and ideal which normalises relationships of power and control, do underpin abuse". But we don't get rid of that same marriage setup, relationship or partnership. We fix the broken sysytems and ensure they run better without abuse.</p><p></p><p>A hierarchy is a way of ranking and categorising people and differences. Not everyone is the same so there will be varying competencies and abilities that we naturally rank in status value according to the benefits they provide and how we value them to organise our lives and society.</p><p></p><p>So thats the natural hierarchy where people end up in positions of more or less control and power ranking over others because of natural and justified reasons. For example as I mentioned</p><p></p><p>Now what can happen is that people can use that same hierarchy to control abusively. They may deny certain people for no justified reason such as based on race or gender. But the position they are denying in the upper levels of the hierarchy are not necessarily abusive. Afterall women for example protest that there is not enough women on corporate boards, in business, as high earners and in politics. </p><p></p><p>Those upper levels of power and control are still required. They were just dominated and controlled based on arbitrary and unjustified reasons. Often though we will find that most situations especially positions at the bottom of hierarchies are not sought. As humans we are competitive and look up to those who have achieved or who have managed to work their way up the tree of life. </p><p></p><p>Can you point out to me where I said controls another person unnecessarily. This is what I mean you find it hard to just support that control is a natural part of society for various reasons and its mostly not abusive. You keep introducing and substitution what I say about good hierarchies with abusive controlling ones. </p><p></p><p>This is the type of narrative that conflates good and natural ways people organise themselves to abusive ones and actually undermines these good and natural hierarchies. It can do as much damage as abusive hierarchies because it actually can create situations where there are no framework and clear structures that assign people clear positions of responsibility and accountability. </p><p></p><p>I did not read this part of your reply until after I wrote the above. Its interesting that I addressed this beforehand and infact your reply only reinforces what I said. You have conformed what I am saying in that you cannot help but see things biased always in the direction of negative and abusive controlling and never a balanced position that acknowledges that control can be both good and bad and if often necessarily in organising society. </p><p></p><p>Lets breakdown what I actually said. I said "people can falsely blame and dismantle natural, healthy and productive hierarchies". Not any hierarchy but natural good and healthy ones. The ones I have been trying to educate you with in the links I just posted again and again that you ignore. </p><p></p><p>Your biased to the point that you don't differentiate and see the destinction of the words "natural, good and healthy" and only see the words hierarch and control and immediate assume negative, red flag, bad, must be destroyed and we cannot even entertain this. </p><p></p><p>Cannot even contemplate the idea of natural, positive, healthy and good control and hierarchies. The certain words carry more weight because of your own unsupported ideological beliefs and assumptions. You read into what you see and not what actually is the reality of the situation. </p><p></p><p>The right answer would have been hierarchies themselves are neutral and can be either be absuive and healthy and non abusive. That they are not abusive perse because they are hierarchies that involve control positive control. That we need to keep watch of people and society abusing the same system but not get rid ofg that system but rather refine it. </p><p></p><p>Lol all those snippets come from the links I previous posted which shows you completely ignored them. Now you want the links in detail after I have to keep banging my head against a brick wall in pointing this out page after page lol. You need to catch up and read what the evdience is saying rather than fob it off. </p><p></p><p>By the way theres a couple on dominance hierarchies ie </p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Social groups</span></em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"><em> identify themselves as a part of the group by immediately self-organising themselves into hierarchies. The hierarchy they exhibit is </em></span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><em><strong>built on values such as </strong></em></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"><em>their physical strength, power, influence within the group, skills that matter and the </em></span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><em><strong>dominance level.</strong></em></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"><em> As we learn to identify people based on their status, </em></span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><em><strong>dominance</strong></em></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"><em>, skill and physical strength since the early stage of our neural development it’s quite hard to overlook such learnings. Our brain tends to process every cue that others exhibit and we have a natural affinity for things that match either our subconscious or conscious search.</em></span></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://culture.kissflow.com/the-need-and-inevitable-nature-of-social-hierarchies-c5ec80f8841b[/URL]</p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">To begin, hierarchy refers to the ranking of members in social groups </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>based on the power, influence, or dominance </strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">they exhibit, whereby some members are superior or subordinate to others. Social groups across species </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>rapidly self-organize into hierarchies</strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">, where members vary in their level of power, influence, skill,</span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong> or dominance.</strong></span></em></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5494206/[/URL]</p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">In group-living taxa, orderly, </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>stable dominance relationships minimize aggression and improve efficiency</strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"> [<a href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450#RSTB20200450C16" target="_blank">16</a>,<a href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450#RSTB20200450C17" target="_blank">17</a>,<a href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450#RSTB20200450C98" target="_blank">98</a>], so self-organizing dominance hierarchies may be common.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"></span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Both theoretical and empirical work suggests that </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>maintaining stable social hierarchies is fundamental to successful, long-lasting social groups.</strong></span> <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>Hierarchy stability reduces conflict</strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">, saves energy, promotes survival and increases reproductive success.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">[URL unfurl="true"]https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450[/URL]</span></em></p><p></p><p>Like we do for all situations whether within hierarchies, families, mariages, relationships, organisations, partnerships, with animals. When an individual, group, organisation or government uses their position within the hierarchy to exploit and abuse others beyond what the hierarchy is designed and meant to be used. </p><p></p><p>That basically means unjustified controll and abuse of human rights and equal opportunity within the context of the situation and setup. We have identified certain signs and red flags like lack of transparency, audits, monopolies, concentrations of power, lack of diverse views (groupthink). </p><p></p><p>Its a case by case basis and abusive control should never by assumed because ots a hierarchy or difference is dominance and control. Thats just a fact or life in how we organise society. Its about being moral and doing what is right by others, treating others the way we wanted to be treated. </p><p></p><p>But our values are important as a society as we can promote unhealthy and conflicting ways to organise society and believe its good. For example the idea that to be successful is to have a career, good job, to climb the corporate ladder and hierarchy of material success.</p><p></p><p>The value is material success so that in itself may creating a hierarchy that promotes abusive control and power relationships such as a class society. It seems humans have a tendency to think of self first and we want to gather resources and wealth for ourselves to survive. Like survival of the fittest which overrides the important aspects of life like family, relationsahips and caring for the disadevnatged in society. </p><p></p><p>So our values can underpin abusive control and we need to have a unified and common good way of organising society with the priorities we make to measure what is of value, what is of benefit and best overall. This is where the holistic approach comes in as it doesn't just assume one dimensional views of society and life but our phsyical and spiritual needs. Our spiritual and wellbeing needs should trump our material needs.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="stevevw, post: 77679677, member: 342064"] What do you mean by dominance because individuals and groups can dominate a particular sector over other individuals and groups naturally in the way society self organises. A relationship can have a dominant partner personality wise and the other partner is happy for them to take the lead. Natural dominance hierarchies form for say strength where the stronger and more powerful dominate certain sectors of society naturally. I am not sure what you mean when you put ; relationships of control. This seems like your implying "relationships of control" is a seperate and independent factor in abuse from dominance hierarchies. If this is the case then this is also misleading as "relationships of control" are not automatically or inherently abusive and are more often inherently non abusive. Control is not a dirty word and signifies abuse. Life is full of controls and is needed to organise society to keep law, order and productivity without breaking down into disorder, anarchy, and chaos. Many hierarchies. There is no evidence that the majority are controlling in an abusive way. They are certainly controlling in many ways but control is not abusive perse. You have to clarify what exactly is the measure. You also have to clarify is a hierarchy is abusive does that mean we get rid of that hierarchy. If not then were should not be saying the hierarchy itself is abusive but rather a good and healthy hierarchy is being abused and we need to put in measures to ensure the same situation is not abused. You don't clarify these things which leaves it open to interpretation and of course some ideologues will run with that and claim all hierarchies and any difference in status, level or control is abusive. So does a Marriage, partnership or any relationship where "control of one person by another - as a value and ideal which normalises relationships of power and control, do underpin abuse". But we don't get rid of that same marriage setup, relationship or partnership. We fix the broken sysytems and ensure they run better without abuse. A hierarchy is a way of ranking and categorising people and differences. Not everyone is the same so there will be varying competencies and abilities that we naturally rank in status value according to the benefits they provide and how we value them to organise our lives and society. So thats the natural hierarchy where people end up in positions of more or less control and power ranking over others because of natural and justified reasons. For example as I mentioned Now what can happen is that people can use that same hierarchy to control abusively. They may deny certain people for no justified reason such as based on race or gender. But the position they are denying in the upper levels of the hierarchy are not necessarily abusive. Afterall women for example protest that there is not enough women on corporate boards, in business, as high earners and in politics. Those upper levels of power and control are still required. They were just dominated and controlled based on arbitrary and unjustified reasons. Often though we will find that most situations especially positions at the bottom of hierarchies are not sought. As humans we are competitive and look up to those who have achieved or who have managed to work their way up the tree of life. Can you point out to me where I said controls another person unnecessarily. This is what I mean you find it hard to just support that control is a natural part of society for various reasons and its mostly not abusive. You keep introducing and substitution what I say about good hierarchies with abusive controlling ones. This is the type of narrative that conflates good and natural ways people organise themselves to abusive ones and actually undermines these good and natural hierarchies. It can do as much damage as abusive hierarchies because it actually can create situations where there are no framework and clear structures that assign people clear positions of responsibility and accountability. I did not read this part of your reply until after I wrote the above. Its interesting that I addressed this beforehand and infact your reply only reinforces what I said. You have conformed what I am saying in that you cannot help but see things biased always in the direction of negative and abusive controlling and never a balanced position that acknowledges that control can be both good and bad and if often necessarily in organising society. Lets breakdown what I actually said. I said "people can falsely blame and dismantle natural, healthy and productive hierarchies". Not any hierarchy but natural good and healthy ones. The ones I have been trying to educate you with in the links I just posted again and again that you ignore. Your biased to the point that you don't differentiate and see the destinction of the words "natural, good and healthy" and only see the words hierarch and control and immediate assume negative, red flag, bad, must be destroyed and we cannot even entertain this. Cannot even contemplate the idea of natural, positive, healthy and good control and hierarchies. The certain words carry more weight because of your own unsupported ideological beliefs and assumptions. You read into what you see and not what actually is the reality of the situation. The right answer would have been hierarchies themselves are neutral and can be either be absuive and healthy and non abusive. That they are not abusive perse because they are hierarchies that involve control positive control. That we need to keep watch of people and society abusing the same system but not get rid ofg that system but rather refine it. Lol all those snippets come from the links I previous posted which shows you completely ignored them. Now you want the links in detail after I have to keep banging my head against a brick wall in pointing this out page after page lol. You need to catch up and read what the evdience is saying rather than fob it off. By the way theres a couple on dominance hierarchies ie [I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]Social groups[/COLOR][/I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)][I] identify themselves as a part of the group by immediately self-organising themselves into hierarchies. The hierarchy they exhibit is [/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][I][B]built on values such as [/B][/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)][I]their physical strength, power, influence within the group, skills that matter and the [/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][I][B]dominance level.[/B][/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)][I] As we learn to identify people based on their status, [/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][I][B]dominance[/B][/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)][I], skill and physical strength since the early stage of our neural development it’s quite hard to overlook such learnings. Our brain tends to process every cue that others exhibit and we have a natural affinity for things that match either our subconscious or conscious search.[/I][/COLOR] [URL unfurl="true"]https://culture.kissflow.com/the-need-and-inevitable-nature-of-social-hierarchies-c5ec80f8841b[/URL] [I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]To begin, hierarchy refers to the ranking of members in social groups [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]based on the power, influence, or dominance [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]they exhibit, whereby some members are superior or subordinate to others. Social groups across species [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]rapidly self-organize into hierarchies[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)], where members vary in their level of power, influence, skill,[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B] or dominance.[/B][/COLOR][/I] [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5494206/[/URL] [I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]In group-living taxa, orderly, [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]stable dominance relationships minimize aggression and improve efficiency[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)] [[URL='https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450#RSTB20200450C16']16[/URL],[URL='https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450#RSTB20200450C17']17[/URL],[URL='https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450#RSTB20200450C98']98[/URL]], so self-organizing dominance hierarchies may be common. Both theoretical and empirical work suggests that [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]maintaining stable social hierarchies is fundamental to successful, long-lasting social groups.[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)] [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]Hierarchy stability reduces conflict[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)], saves energy, promotes survival and increases reproductive success. [URL unfurl="true"]https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0450[/URL][/COLOR][/I] Like we do for all situations whether within hierarchies, families, mariages, relationships, organisations, partnerships, with animals. When an individual, group, organisation or government uses their position within the hierarchy to exploit and abuse others beyond what the hierarchy is designed and meant to be used. That basically means unjustified controll and abuse of human rights and equal opportunity within the context of the situation and setup. We have identified certain signs and red flags like lack of transparency, audits, monopolies, concentrations of power, lack of diverse views (groupthink). Its a case by case basis and abusive control should never by assumed because ots a hierarchy or difference is dominance and control. Thats just a fact or life in how we organise society. Its about being moral and doing what is right by others, treating others the way we wanted to be treated. But our values are important as a society as we can promote unhealthy and conflicting ways to organise society and believe its good. For example the idea that to be successful is to have a career, good job, to climb the corporate ladder and hierarchy of material success. The value is material success so that in itself may creating a hierarchy that promotes abusive control and power relationships such as a class society. It seems humans have a tendency to think of self first and we want to gather resources and wealth for ourselves to survive. Like survival of the fittest which overrides the important aspects of life like family, relationsahips and caring for the disadevnatged in society. So our values can underpin abusive control and we need to have a unified and common good way of organising society with the priorities we make to measure what is of value, what is of benefit and best overall. This is where the holistic approach comes in as it doesn't just assume one dimensional views of society and life but our phsyical and spiritual needs. Our spiritual and wellbeing needs should trump our material needs. [/QUOTE]
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