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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Kid's Corporal Punishment - a Risk to Mental Health
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<blockquote data-quote="stevevw" data-source="post: 77679631" data-attributes="member: 342064"><p>Actually you did not qualify that in those quotes I linked. You said that that hierarchies by definition are abusive control and that they are not neutral but profoundly dangerous on their own.</p><p></p><p>But as I keep saying your creating a logical fallacy that because abuse happens within a hierarchy that hierarchies must be an inherently abusive situation.</p><p></p><p>I just gave you ample evidence that clearly shows in many ways how hierarchies are also an automatic and natural way to setup society and provide many benefits including health and wellbeing and most important actually prevent abuse of power.</p><p></p><p>So they are not inherently abusive and some be both abusive and healthy and normal promoting non abuse. You choose to see things negatively only which I think is biased and your own assumptions and ideological beliefs around the idea of control is slanted towards the negative and not a balanced view based on the evidence. </p><p></p><p>No one is disagreeing that hierarchies can become abusive. Its the idea that because they can become abusive therefore all hierarchies underpin abuse. This makes out we must get rid of all hierarchies which is unreal and not based on the factual and objective evidence I have linked which shows that hierarchies can also be a means to hnon abuse and healthy and natural ways or organise ourselves ie </p><p></p><p><em><strong><em>Hierarchies allow societies to <strong>manage larger populations, diverse skills, and specialized roles more effectively.</strong></em></strong></em></p><p><em><strong><em><strong><em>Organizing social groups in a hierarchical manner is an <strong>efficient way to maximize group cohesion and productivity.</strong></em></strong></em></strong></em></p><p><em>Hierarchical systems <strong>provide a clear chain of command and define the roles and responsibilities</strong>.</em></p><p><em>This structure <strong>helps prevent chaos and confusion</strong>, allowing for smoother coordination and collaboration among members.</em></p><p><em>Hierarchies <strong>help forge social identities and promote a sense of belonging</strong> within groups.</em></p><p><em>These hierarchies can serve as a <strong>basis for social cohesion, helping to unite people</strong> under common objectives and values.</em></p><p><em>Hierarchy provides a framework for the <strong>establishment of authority and accountability of decision-makers.</strong></em></p><p><em><strong><em>One of the most crucial roles of hierarchy is its<strong> ability to establish and maintain order within a society.</strong></em></strong></em></p><p><em><strong>Clear lines of authority help prevent the abuse of power</strong> and foster an environment of trust and respect.</em></p><p></p><p>So it is infact ideologies that flasely blame hierarchies as inherently abusive and then trying to dismantle natural, healthy and productive hierarchies just because their hierarchies is what will cause the breakdown of society, of organisation and systems that run society and have been sucessful. This is what will undermine the clear lines of roles and responsibilities and most importantly accountability when it comes to abuse.</p><p></p><p>The way we prevent abuse is not to dismantle hierarchies perse but to ensure they are not abused. The nature of humans is that there are differences and its unreal to say we should have no differences and make society exactly the same in outcomes. Its about opportunities. </p><p></p><p>So its about having checks and balances that prevent people and systems from denying the same opportunities for everyone within the necessary hierarchies and that no one abuses their different positions of responsibility making the system run more efficently and productively, maintaining law and order while also as the links I posted said </p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">"<em><strong>essential for defining social roles and promoting successful social interaction, <em><strong>maximize group cohesion, <em><strong>help forge social identities and promote a sense of belonging</strong> within groups, <em><strong>help to unite people</strong> under common objectives and values and to <em><strong>encourage individuals to strive for improvement and advancement, fostering a sense of purpose and motivation.</strong></em></em></em></strong></em></strong></em></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">Now does that sould like its promoting abusive and violent control. I think quite the opposite. Sounds like it is encouraging society to be promote sucessful and cohesive relationships that help unite people under common values and identity and allowing individuals to strive to be better giving them a sense of identity and purpose. Why would we want to tear down such a way toorganise society.</span></p><p></p><p>I'd say because they are so common that hierarchies are less often used for abusive control but often used for non abusive control. So conflation them as 'often' is misleading and creates the narrative that all hierarchies because they 'often' that they are always abusive or just labelled 'inherently abusive' perse. </p><p></p><p>This is part of Post Modernism where language and narratives become what makes reality. Say it enough and it becomes true. Thats why its important to clarify exactly what you mean, what qualifies as relationships of control and what control is normal, natural and necessary and what is not and abusive.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="stevevw, post: 77679631, member: 342064"] Actually you did not qualify that in those quotes I linked. You said that that hierarchies by definition are abusive control and that they are not neutral but profoundly dangerous on their own. But as I keep saying your creating a logical fallacy that because abuse happens within a hierarchy that hierarchies must be an inherently abusive situation. I just gave you ample evidence that clearly shows in many ways how hierarchies are also an automatic and natural way to setup society and provide many benefits including health and wellbeing and most important actually prevent abuse of power. So they are not inherently abusive and some be both abusive and healthy and normal promoting non abuse. You choose to see things negatively only which I think is biased and your own assumptions and ideological beliefs around the idea of control is slanted towards the negative and not a balanced view based on the evidence. No one is disagreeing that hierarchies can become abusive. Its the idea that because they can become abusive therefore all hierarchies underpin abuse. This makes out we must get rid of all hierarchies which is unreal and not based on the factual and objective evidence I have linked which shows that hierarchies can also be a means to hnon abuse and healthy and natural ways or organise ourselves ie [I][B][I]Hierarchies allow societies to [B]manage larger populations, diverse skills, and specialized roles more effectively. [I]Organizing social groups in a hierarchical manner is an [B]efficient way to maximize group cohesion and productivity.[/B][/I][/B][/I][/B] Hierarchical systems [B]provide a clear chain of command and define the roles and responsibilities[/B]. This structure [B]helps prevent chaos and confusion[/B], allowing for smoother coordination and collaboration among members. Hierarchies [B]help forge social identities and promote a sense of belonging[/B] within groups. These hierarchies can serve as a [B]basis for social cohesion, helping to unite people[/B] under common objectives and values. Hierarchy provides a framework for the [B]establishment of authority and accountability of decision-makers. [I]One of the most crucial roles of hierarchy is its[B] ability to establish and maintain order within a society.[/B][/I] Clear lines of authority help prevent the abuse of power[/B] and foster an environment of trust and respect.[/I] So it is infact ideologies that flasely blame hierarchies as inherently abusive and then trying to dismantle natural, healthy and productive hierarchies just because their hierarchies is what will cause the breakdown of society, of organisation and systems that run society and have been sucessful. This is what will undermine the clear lines of roles and responsibilities and most importantly accountability when it comes to abuse. The way we prevent abuse is not to dismantle hierarchies perse but to ensure they are not abused. The nature of humans is that there are differences and its unreal to say we should have no differences and make society exactly the same in outcomes. Its about opportunities. So its about having checks and balances that prevent people and systems from denying the same opportunities for everyone within the necessary hierarchies and that no one abuses their different positions of responsibility making the system run more efficently and productively, maintaining law and order while also as the links I posted said [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]"[I][B]essential for defining social roles and promoting successful social interaction, [I][B]maximize group cohesion, [I][B]help forge social identities and promote a sense of belonging[/B] within groups, [I][B]help to unite people[/B] under common objectives and values and to [I][B]encourage individuals to strive for improvement and advancement, fostering a sense of purpose and motivation.[/B][/I][/I][/I][/B][/I][/B][/I][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Now does that sould like its promoting abusive and violent control. I think quite the opposite. Sounds like it is encouraging society to be promote sucessful and cohesive relationships that help unite people under common values and identity and allowing individuals to strive to be better giving them a sense of identity and purpose. Why would we want to tear down such a way toorganise society.[/COLOR] I'd say because they are so common that hierarchies are less often used for abusive control but often used for non abusive control. So conflation them as 'often' is misleading and creates the narrative that all hierarchies because they 'often' that they are always abusive or just labelled 'inherently abusive' perse. This is part of Post Modernism where language and narratives become what makes reality. Say it enough and it becomes true. Thats why its important to clarify exactly what you mean, what qualifies as relationships of control and what control is normal, natural and necessary and what is not and abusive. [/QUOTE]
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