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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Kid's Corporal Punishment - a Risk to Mental Health
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<blockquote data-quote="Paidiske" data-source="post: 77658782" data-attributes="member: 386627"><p>Not in itself. But it contributes to a culture which denigrates women, and which promotes male power over women. </p><p></p><p>Now we're quibbling about what's "normal," which is pretty meaningless. My argument all through the thread is that you don't have be "irrational" in a way that would show up significantly on a clinical measure, to hold these beliefs or behave in this way. You haven't provided anything to demonstrate that this is, indeed, a necessary condition.</p><p></p><p>Should not be, sure. But it's hard to argue that it's not. Look at the responses to violence against women in Australia today; I have seen so many people basically saying, "domestic violence has always existed, there's nothing we can do about it."</p><p></p><p>Firstly, it's not that straightforward, and secondly, "positive" and "negative" are just subjective value judgements. </p><p></p><p>That hasn't been shown to be the case, though.</p><p></p><p>No, steve, they're not. Awfulising has nothing to do with a controlling mindset. Neither does downing or low frustration tolerance. Demandingness does, but it's only one aspect among several. </p><p></p><p>Demandingness, yes, I have agreed from the first relates to abuse. Low frustration tolerance, on its own, I don't agree, because there are various ways of dealing with that frustration, and abuse is not the only or a necessary response. </p><p></p><p>And that might mean a parent feels terrible, but it does not in any way relate to acceptance of violence, hierarchy, power, control or rigid roles. </p><p></p><p>I don't agree. Nor have you presented evidenced for this claim. </p><p></p><p>Where is your evidence that they "spring out of demandingness"?</p><p></p><p>But somebody could score highly on every trait in the PRIBS, have low acceptance of violence, and not be any real risk of abusing. This is why I say they it is not measuring the things which drive abuse.</p><p></p><p>(Demonstrably false).</p><p></p><p>Yes, because "wrong" is always a subjective judgement. </p><p></p><p>We can set agreed community standards based on our understanding of harm. But it's still subjective.</p><p></p><p>Sure, those are all part of who we are. But our emotions don't dictate our behaviour. We can be scared, but brave. Hurt, but generous. Angry, but gentle. And so on. Our biology doesn't dictate our behaviour. We have free will, and we make choices. </p><p></p><p>You have not shown that "cognitive distortions" form these beliefs, at all. Unrealistic expectations are not only formed by cognitive distortions. We have far stronger evidence of social norms forming these beliefs, than cognitive distortions. </p><p></p><p>No, I am grouping hierarchy, power and control, as one related dynamic. </p><p></p><p>You have not provided any evidence of people holding the <em>cluster</em> of beliefs which underpin abuse, but not abusing. </p><p></p><p>And I have said, over and over, that unless they are actually situations of one person controlling another, they are not. </p><p></p><p>It's not conflating. It's been demonstrated that abusers hold, and are driven in their abuse, by this particular cluster of beliefs.</p><p></p><p>The research on the attitudes held by abusers is very clear. You can see it reflected here: <a href="https://www.saferresource.org.au/community_attitudes_towards_domestic_violence" target="_blank">Community attitudes towards domestic violence - SAFER (a resource to help Australian churches deal with domestic and family violence)</a></p><p></p><p><em>"Common attitudes that underpin violence towards women</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>“Violence against women isn’t good but it’s understandable”</em></p><p><em>This is the idea that it is excusable for men to use violence in certain circumstances like if they lose control, that they cannot always be held responsible for their actions, or that some kinds of violence (such as sexual harassment) are not serious.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>“It’s ok for men to control their household and their wife’s public life and relationships”</em></p><p><em>This is the idea that men should be the head of the household, decide how money is spent, control who their female partner can or cannot see and specify how she should spend her time.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>“Women and men are just naturally different and women are more suited to domestic tasks while men should be the breadwinners”</em></p><p><em>This is the idea that women and men, and girls and boys, should act in certain ways or fulfill certain roles, in the home and outside of the home. It includes double standards concerning what is acceptable for men and women.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>“Aggressive behaviour is just natural for men”</em></p><p><em>This is reflected in the way some groups of men ‘bond’ or seek to prove their ‘manhood’ through actions that are negative, hostile or aggressive towards women, like ‘pickup artists’ or catcalling/wolf-whistling, or speaking disrespectfully about women generally or their female partners in the company of other men."</em></p><p></p><p>That resource is looking at violence against women, but for "women" substitute children and it's the same attitudes which drive abuse of children.</p><p></p><p>There's another example here: <a href="https://www.oxfam.org/en/ten-harmful-beliefs-perpetuate-violence-against-women-and-girls" target="_blank">Ten harmful beliefs that perpetuate violence against women and girls | Oxfam International</a></p><p></p><p>This article is helpful: <a href="https://www.aihw.gov.au/family-domestic-and-sexual-violence/understanding-fdsv/community-understanding-and-attitudes/community-attitudes#what-community-attitudes" target="_blank">Community attitudes</a></p><p></p><p>It unpacks what shapes attitudes of accepting violence (note: it's not all about irrational thinking or cognitive distortion!):</p><p></p><p>"Attitudes toward violence can be shaped by a range of individual characteristics, personal experiences, interactions with family, peer-groups and networks, culture and religion, social media and education campaigns, criminal justice policies and social movements."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Paidiske, post: 77658782, member: 386627"] Not in itself. But it contributes to a culture which denigrates women, and which promotes male power over women. Now we're quibbling about what's "normal," which is pretty meaningless. My argument all through the thread is that you don't have be "irrational" in a way that would show up significantly on a clinical measure, to hold these beliefs or behave in this way. You haven't provided anything to demonstrate that this is, indeed, a necessary condition. Should not be, sure. But it's hard to argue that it's not. Look at the responses to violence against women in Australia today; I have seen so many people basically saying, "domestic violence has always existed, there's nothing we can do about it." Firstly, it's not that straightforward, and secondly, "positive" and "negative" are just subjective value judgements. That hasn't been shown to be the case, though. No, steve, they're not. Awfulising has nothing to do with a controlling mindset. Neither does downing or low frustration tolerance. Demandingness does, but it's only one aspect among several. Demandingness, yes, I have agreed from the first relates to abuse. Low frustration tolerance, on its own, I don't agree, because there are various ways of dealing with that frustration, and abuse is not the only or a necessary response. And that might mean a parent feels terrible, but it does not in any way relate to acceptance of violence, hierarchy, power, control or rigid roles. I don't agree. Nor have you presented evidenced for this claim. Where is your evidence that they "spring out of demandingness"? But somebody could score highly on every trait in the PRIBS, have low acceptance of violence, and not be any real risk of abusing. This is why I say they it is not measuring the things which drive abuse. (Demonstrably false). Yes, because "wrong" is always a subjective judgement. We can set agreed community standards based on our understanding of harm. But it's still subjective. Sure, those are all part of who we are. But our emotions don't dictate our behaviour. We can be scared, but brave. Hurt, but generous. Angry, but gentle. And so on. Our biology doesn't dictate our behaviour. We have free will, and we make choices. You have not shown that "cognitive distortions" form these beliefs, at all. Unrealistic expectations are not only formed by cognitive distortions. We have far stronger evidence of social norms forming these beliefs, than cognitive distortions. No, I am grouping hierarchy, power and control, as one related dynamic. You have not provided any evidence of people holding the [I]cluster[/I] of beliefs which underpin abuse, but not abusing. And I have said, over and over, that unless they are actually situations of one person controlling another, they are not. It's not conflating. It's been demonstrated that abusers hold, and are driven in their abuse, by this particular cluster of beliefs. The research on the attitudes held by abusers is very clear. You can see it reflected here: [URL="https://www.saferresource.org.au/community_attitudes_towards_domestic_violence"]Community attitudes towards domestic violence - SAFER (a resource to help Australian churches deal with domestic and family violence)[/URL] [I]"Common attitudes that underpin violence towards women “Violence against women isn’t good but it’s understandable” This is the idea that it is excusable for men to use violence in certain circumstances like if they lose control, that they cannot always be held responsible for their actions, or that some kinds of violence (such as sexual harassment) are not serious. “It’s ok for men to control their household and their wife’s public life and relationships” This is the idea that men should be the head of the household, decide how money is spent, control who their female partner can or cannot see and specify how she should spend her time. “Women and men are just naturally different and women are more suited to domestic tasks while men should be the breadwinners” This is the idea that women and men, and girls and boys, should act in certain ways or fulfill certain roles, in the home and outside of the home. It includes double standards concerning what is acceptable for men and women. “Aggressive behaviour is just natural for men” This is reflected in the way some groups of men ‘bond’ or seek to prove their ‘manhood’ through actions that are negative, hostile or aggressive towards women, like ‘pickup artists’ or catcalling/wolf-whistling, or speaking disrespectfully about women generally or their female partners in the company of other men."[/I] That resource is looking at violence against women, but for "women" substitute children and it's the same attitudes which drive abuse of children. There's another example here: [URL="https://www.oxfam.org/en/ten-harmful-beliefs-perpetuate-violence-against-women-and-girls"]Ten harmful beliefs that perpetuate violence against women and girls | Oxfam International[/URL] This article is helpful: [URL="https://www.aihw.gov.au/family-domestic-and-sexual-violence/understanding-fdsv/community-understanding-and-attitudes/community-attitudes#what-community-attitudes"]Community attitudes[/URL] It unpacks what shapes attitudes of accepting violence (note: it's not all about irrational thinking or cognitive distortion!): "Attitudes toward violence can be shaped by a range of individual characteristics, personal experiences, interactions with family, peer-groups and networks, culture and religion, social media and education campaigns, criminal justice policies and social movements." [/QUOTE]
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