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Discussion and Debate
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Ethics & Morality
Kid's Corporal Punishment - a Risk to Mental Health
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<blockquote data-quote="stevevw" data-source="post: 77646493" data-attributes="member: 342064"><p>I just literally gave you evidence with the links you ignored. The criteria is the studies on the prevelence of psychological distress especially depression and anxiety). From the actual people and populations experiencing depression and anxiety. Where else but direct from those suffering. Why do you think either the sufferers or the studies made the figures up.</p><p></p><p>How else are we to have a coherent discussion if you keep dismissing the evidence.</p><p></p><p>Thats what you keep claiming so I am pinning you down on this to see if your claim stands up. So I'm asking you about the APA's claim not mine. I'm not conflating anything. If anyone is conflation then you will have to take that up with the APA or make an arguement why the APA is conflating a bunch of distinct things on the basis of unfounded claims.</p><p></p><p>They are the ones that said <strong><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">psychological maladaptation is linked to abuse</span></em></strong>. I am only copying and pasting what they say. As I showed with the last article I had to go through it step by step to show you that it was saying exactly what I was saying. You finally admitted it was. Its the same for the other articles. I can go through them to show you that your unsupported assertions have no basis.</p><p></p><p>Then why does the APA, the ones that give the diagnostic criteria for stress and distress say they are variations on the same thing.</p><p></p><p>Then why do so many of my links state that people about due to be stressed and distressed. That it is part of why people abuse. We can say that stress and distress contributes to why people abuse. This is fact. Its part of the mix of why people abuse.</p><p></p><p>But this doesn't follow that there are people who cannot handle stress that do abuse. This is a non sequitor.</p><p></p><p>Actually as your link states unreal and inappropriate beliefs and attitudes about abusing and controlling others are caused by distress. You can't believe in wanting to control and abuse others unless you are primed with the need to abuse and control others.</p><p></p><p>Wanting to control and abuse others comes from experiences that are negative and distressful to the abuser. You can't get such a destructful belief from a positive place.</p><p></p><p>I just gave them a few posts ago. I am beginning to think you either refuse to acknowledge this or you are really don't understand what they are saying. I also linked the articles on the Parental Rational and Irrational Belief Scale which explains the mindset of those who have beliefs in abuse and control such as "Demandingness" ect.</p><p></p><p>They explain the mechanisms for how people and parents will develop inappropeiate beliefs and attitudes. Your own link explained this as well. You can't just reject your own links as well.</p><p></p><p>What do you mean by "quantifying the causative contribution".</p><p> </p><p>Like I said there is no single cause of abuse. But the risk factors combine to cause abuse and I have provided evidence for this. I will only re-link it if you ask for it or dispute this.</p><p></p><p>I have also provided evidence for this and will only re-link it if tyou dispute this. Your saying that of all the links I have provided none state how these contribute to abuse. Say with data and studies.</p><p></p><p>Are you kidding, your own link provided this evidence. I have to respond to this. Look here are some of the links you have obviously ignored.</p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">The results of study showed that the </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>irrational beliefs about parenting were significantly associated with level of parental stress</strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"> (Graeves, 1997; Mcdonalt, 1993; Starko, 1991)</span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong> and depression </strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">(Eryüksel & Akün, 2003), perceived parenting efficacy (Ackerman, 1991), parent-adolescent conflict (Robin ve Foster, 1989).</span></em> </p><p><a href="https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ936304.pdf" target="_blank">https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ936304.pdf</a></p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">The PRIBS and its subscales are significantly correlated with other measures of irrationality and negative emotion, including the </span></em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"><em>General Attitudes and Beliefs Scale-Short Form (Lindner, Kirkby, Wertheim, & Birch, 1999) and the Parental Stress Scale (Berry & Jones, 1995). </em></span> </p><p><a href="https://tpcjournal.nbcc.org/tag/irrational-parenting-beliefs/" target="_blank">irrational parenting beliefs - The Professional Counselor</a></p><p></p><p>In other words the Parental Rational and Irrational Belief Scale when measuring parental beliefs and attides is not done in isolation but is closely linked with the measures of irrationality and negative emotions and parental stress. Done in isolation will give false readings of why parents develop these beliefs and attitudes.</p><p></p><p>Your own link which was about the Determinants of parental beliefs and attitudes ie what factors cause parents to develop negative and abusive beliefs and attitudes about parenting lists the factors that cause beliefs in abuse and cointrol and mentions stress and distress as determinants.</p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><em>Identification of the drivers of parenting attitudes may aid identification and intervention efforts. </em></span></strong><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Numerous factors were consistently related to more positive parenting attitudes (i.e., more appropriate parenting expectations, greater empathy, and valuing non-physical punishment), including greater educational attainment, caregiver history of child sexual and physical abuse, lower levels of children’s internalizing <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms" target="_blank"><u>symptoms</u></a>, greater family income, and lower levels of psychological aggression. </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>Lower levels of caregiver depressive <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms" target="_blank"><u>symptoms</u></a>,</strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"> greater number of maltreatment allegations, use of nonviolent discipline, and </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>less severity of stressful <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/life-events" target="_blank"><u>life events</u></a> </strong></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">were tied to more adaptive parenting</span></em> </p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>Symptoms of depression have been linked with more negative parenting attitudes.</strong></span> </em><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><em><strong>Parental stress has been correlated with more negative indices of parenting, including higher rates of physical punishment</strong></em></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"><em>. </em></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><em><strong>Greater perceived family health has been linked to more positive beliefs regarding non-violent discipline</strong></em></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)"><em>. Families living in dangerous or impoverished neighborhoods experience are more likely to experience higher rates of physical punishment </em></span></p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Caregivers with higher levels of depressive symptoms exhibit more negative parenting attitudes. More stressful life events were hypothesized to correspond with more inappropriate parenting attitudes. </span></em></p><p><a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213419304594" target="_blank">https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213419304594</a></p><p></p><p>So not only is it linking the negative stress and distress such as depression in forming abusive attitudes but it also states that positive health and wellbeing is loinked to positive non abusive beliefs about parenting. This shows how relevant the parents psychological state as to being positive or negative is going to influence their beliefs and attitudes towards parenting and the use of abusive disicipline.</p><p></p><p>And I have never said this so your creating another Strawman to knockdown. Your entire arguement is full of logical fallacies that I keep having to knock down.</p><p></p><p>I never said it did. That is your conjecture. I said we don't actually know but we have other sources that do know which state that stress and distress are linked to abuse. But of course you totally ignored these again. In fact initially you were the one who made the unsupported claim that the article "was not" about abuse without knowing the content of the article.</p><p></p><p>But the belief in CP itself is not abusive. So something else has caused the abuser to move from the socially acceptable belief to a negative and abusive one. That is they have abused the socially acceptable belief in CP. So the belief in CP itself is not the problem but something within the abuser that heard the same message but distorts it.</p><p></p><p>No this is just your take on its. Its not what the majority of the industry think. Your choosing to highlight one aspect at the societal eleve when theres a bunch of factors that happen before that and influence that at the individual and family level your completely ignoring.</p><p></p><p>Even your own links allude to this when they talk about restructuring society and supporting people with therapy and empowerment to be more equal to prevent inequality that leads to people being in positions where they are oppressed and volnurable to control and abuse.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">But considering these beliefs are detructful and most people don't go along with them its not the result of society telling them to be abusive but more the personal negative experiences that make the person relate to abusive and controlling thinking in the first place. </span></p><p></p><p>Once again your own links mention the many determinants that cultivate abusive and controlling beliefs and attitudes. These are for more positive attitudes or negative attitudes <em>i.e., more appropriate parenting expectations, greater empathy, and <strong>valuing non-physical punishment</strong>), including </em></p><p><em>greater educational attainment, </em></p><p><em><strong>caregiver history of child sexual and physical abuse</strong>, </em></p><p><em>lower levels of children’s internalizing <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms" target="_blank"><u>symptoms</u></a>, </em></p><p><em>greater family income, and lower levels of psychological aggression. </em></p><p><em><strong>Lower levels of caregiver depressive <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms" target="_blank"><u>symptoms</u></a>,</strong> </em></p><p><em>greater number of maltreatment allegations, </em></p><p><em>use of nonviolent discipline, </em></p><p><em>and <strong>less severity of stressful <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/life-events" target="_blank"><u>life events</u></a> </strong></em></p><p><em>were tied to more adaptive parenting. </em></p><p></p><p>So its not just about belief itself and in fact these factors are what cultivates abusive and controlling attitudes or if positive what develops positive and non abusive attitudes towards children.</p><p></p><p>As I said it takes a lot of cultivate belief in parents and its not just because they hear some message telling them its ok. They have to earn that attitude through experience to believe its good and ok to abuse others. They have to be primed to want to abuse others and anyone primed to abuse others has psychological issues that cause them to turn abuse into something good.</p><p></p><p>A bit like the current Hamas ideology. They truely believe that they are not terrorising people but are doing Gods work. They are nut cases.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="stevevw, post: 77646493, member: 342064"] I just literally gave you evidence with the links you ignored. The criteria is the studies on the prevelence of psychological distress especially depression and anxiety). From the actual people and populations experiencing depression and anxiety. Where else but direct from those suffering. Why do you think either the sufferers or the studies made the figures up. How else are we to have a coherent discussion if you keep dismissing the evidence. Thats what you keep claiming so I am pinning you down on this to see if your claim stands up. So I'm asking you about the APA's claim not mine. I'm not conflating anything. If anyone is conflation then you will have to take that up with the APA or make an arguement why the APA is conflating a bunch of distinct things on the basis of unfounded claims. They are the ones that said [B][I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]psychological maladaptation is linked to abuse[/COLOR][/I][/B]. I am only copying and pasting what they say. As I showed with the last article I had to go through it step by step to show you that it was saying exactly what I was saying. You finally admitted it was. Its the same for the other articles. I can go through them to show you that your unsupported assertions have no basis. Then why does the APA, the ones that give the diagnostic criteria for stress and distress say they are variations on the same thing. Then why do so many of my links state that people about due to be stressed and distressed. That it is part of why people abuse. We can say that stress and distress contributes to why people abuse. This is fact. Its part of the mix of why people abuse. But this doesn't follow that there are people who cannot handle stress that do abuse. This is a non sequitor. Actually as your link states unreal and inappropriate beliefs and attitudes about abusing and controlling others are caused by distress. You can't believe in wanting to control and abuse others unless you are primed with the need to abuse and control others. Wanting to control and abuse others comes from experiences that are negative and distressful to the abuser. You can't get such a destructful belief from a positive place. I just gave them a few posts ago. I am beginning to think you either refuse to acknowledge this or you are really don't understand what they are saying. I also linked the articles on the Parental Rational and Irrational Belief Scale which explains the mindset of those who have beliefs in abuse and control such as "Demandingness" ect. They explain the mechanisms for how people and parents will develop inappropeiate beliefs and attitudes. Your own link explained this as well. You can't just reject your own links as well. What do you mean by "quantifying the causative contribution". Like I said there is no single cause of abuse. But the risk factors combine to cause abuse and I have provided evidence for this. I will only re-link it if you ask for it or dispute this. I have also provided evidence for this and will only re-link it if tyou dispute this. Your saying that of all the links I have provided none state how these contribute to abuse. Say with data and studies. Are you kidding, your own link provided this evidence. I have to respond to this. Look here are some of the links you have obviously ignored. [I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]The results of study showed that the [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]irrational beliefs about parenting were significantly associated with level of parental stress[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)] (Graeves, 1997; Mcdonalt, 1993; Starko, 1991)[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B] and depression [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)](Eryüksel & Akün, 2003), perceived parenting efficacy (Ackerman, 1991), parent-adolescent conflict (Robin ve Foster, 1989).[/COLOR][/I] [URL]https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ936304.pdf[/URL] [I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]The PRIBS and its subscales are significantly correlated with other measures of irrationality and negative emotion, including the [/COLOR][/I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)][I]General Attitudes and Beliefs Scale-Short Form (Lindner, Kirkby, Wertheim, & Birch, 1999) and the Parental Stress Scale (Berry & Jones, 1995). [/I][/COLOR] [URL='https://tpcjournal.nbcc.org/tag/irrational-parenting-beliefs/']irrational parenting beliefs - The Professional Counselor[/URL] In other words the Parental Rational and Irrational Belief Scale when measuring parental beliefs and attides is not done in isolation but is closely linked with the measures of irrationality and negative emotions and parental stress. Done in isolation will give false readings of why parents develop these beliefs and attitudes. Your own link which was about the Determinants of parental beliefs and attitudes ie what factors cause parents to develop negative and abusive beliefs and attitudes about parenting lists the factors that cause beliefs in abuse and cointrol and mentions stress and distress as determinants. [B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][I]Identification of the drivers of parenting attitudes may aid identification and intervention efforts. [/I][/COLOR][/B][I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]Numerous factors were consistently related to more positive parenting attitudes (i.e., more appropriate parenting expectations, greater empathy, and valuing non-physical punishment), including greater educational attainment, caregiver history of child sexual and physical abuse, lower levels of children’s internalizing [URL='https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms'][U]symptoms[/U][/URL], greater family income, and lower levels of psychological aggression. [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]Lower levels of caregiver depressive [URL='https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms'][U]symptoms[/U][/URL],[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)] greater number of maltreatment allegations, use of nonviolent discipline, and [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]less severity of stressful [URL='https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/life-events'][U]life events[/U][/URL] [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]were tied to more adaptive parenting[/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]Symptoms of depression have been linked with more negative parenting attitudes.[/B][/COLOR] [/I][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][I][B]Parental stress has been correlated with more negative indices of parenting, including higher rates of physical punishment[/B][/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)][I]. [/I][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][I][B]Greater perceived family health has been linked to more positive beliefs regarding non-violent discipline[/B][/I][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)][I]. Families living in dangerous or impoverished neighborhoods experience are more likely to experience higher rates of physical punishment [/I][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]Caregivers with higher levels of depressive symptoms exhibit more negative parenting attitudes. More stressful life events were hypothesized to correspond with more inappropriate parenting attitudes. [/COLOR][/I] [URL]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213419304594[/URL] So not only is it linking the negative stress and distress such as depression in forming abusive attitudes but it also states that positive health and wellbeing is loinked to positive non abusive beliefs about parenting. This shows how relevant the parents psychological state as to being positive or negative is going to influence their beliefs and attitudes towards parenting and the use of abusive disicipline. And I have never said this so your creating another Strawman to knockdown. Your entire arguement is full of logical fallacies that I keep having to knock down. I never said it did. That is your conjecture. I said we don't actually know but we have other sources that do know which state that stress and distress are linked to abuse. But of course you totally ignored these again. In fact initially you were the one who made the unsupported claim that the article "was not" about abuse without knowing the content of the article. But the belief in CP itself is not abusive. So something else has caused the abuser to move from the socially acceptable belief to a negative and abusive one. That is they have abused the socially acceptable belief in CP. So the belief in CP itself is not the problem but something within the abuser that heard the same message but distorts it. No this is just your take on its. Its not what the majority of the industry think. Your choosing to highlight one aspect at the societal eleve when theres a bunch of factors that happen before that and influence that at the individual and family level your completely ignoring. Even your own links allude to this when they talk about restructuring society and supporting people with therapy and empowerment to be more equal to prevent inequality that leads to people being in positions where they are oppressed and volnurable to control and abuse. [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]But considering these beliefs are detructful and most people don't go along with them its not the result of society telling them to be abusive but more the personal negative experiences that make the person relate to abusive and controlling thinking in the first place. [/COLOR] Once again your own links mention the many determinants that cultivate abusive and controlling beliefs and attitudes. These are for more positive attitudes or negative attitudes [I]i.e., more appropriate parenting expectations, greater empathy, and [B]valuing non-physical punishment[/B]), including greater educational attainment, [B]caregiver history of child sexual and physical abuse[/B], lower levels of children’s internalizing [URL='https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms'][U]symptoms[/U][/URL], greater family income, and lower levels of psychological aggression. [B]Lower levels of caregiver depressive [URL='https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/symptoms'][U]symptoms[/U][/URL],[/B] greater number of maltreatment allegations, use of nonviolent discipline, and [B]less severity of stressful [URL='https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/life-events'][U]life events[/U][/URL] [/B] were tied to more adaptive parenting. [/I] So its not just about belief itself and in fact these factors are what cultivates abusive and controlling attitudes or if positive what develops positive and non abusive attitudes towards children. As I said it takes a lot of cultivate belief in parents and its not just because they hear some message telling them its ok. They have to earn that attitude through experience to believe its good and ok to abuse others. They have to be primed to want to abuse others and anyone primed to abuse others has psychological issues that cause them to turn abuse into something good. A bit like the current Hamas ideology. They truely believe that they are not terrorising people but are doing Gods work. They are nut cases. [/QUOTE]
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