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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Free will and determinism
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<blockquote data-quote="Bradskii" data-source="post: 77658859" data-attributes="member: 412388"><p>We obviously do have that capacity. To make decisions. Based on all the conditions of which we are aware. The decision will be the one which we prefer to make. By definition. It makes no sense to suggest that we'll decide to do something that we don't want to do. Even if the decision will lead to something we that immediately would not prefer, there is an outcome which we can envisage that is our preference. So we could even decide to sacrifice our lives if we thought it was for the greater good. </p><p></p><p>But that's not free will. You were constrained by the conditions. You could only make a decision based on those conditions. Free will is the ability to make a decision <em>outside</em> of those conditions. Free of those conditions. Separate from them. Free will is the ability to make a decision that wasn't caused by anything. And if the world is determinate then every event is caused by a previous event. It cannot be any other way. </p><p></p><p>You might make a quick decision to do X. There'll be a reason for it. But if you pondered for months about it and investigated all aspects of every possible input and all likely outcomes then there's still a reason for it. It might be different than the spontaneous decision but input varies output. One thing leads to another and you can't change that. You couldn't have done anything else because it's a determinate world.</p><p></p><p>If someone says they can break this chain of cause and effect then I need to know where this happens. Every argument against it I've seen is not much more than 'Well, I just decided to do it'. Which means the 'I' there is outside of everything, ignoring cause and effect or somehow preventing it from happening. And that makes no sense.</p><p></p><p>It's something I've mentioned myself at times. We are simply parts of the universe that have become self aware. Maybe it was something that Sagan once said. If he didn't then I'm sure it was his view anyway. But by being a small part of the whole doesn't exclude us from being constrained by the same rules that govern everything. We haven't been sprinkled with some magic dust that allows us to escape from that. It's generally only a religious viewpoint that allows for that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bradskii, post: 77658859, member: 412388"] We obviously do have that capacity. To make decisions. Based on all the conditions of which we are aware. The decision will be the one which we prefer to make. By definition. It makes no sense to suggest that we'll decide to do something that we don't want to do. Even if the decision will lead to something we that immediately would not prefer, there is an outcome which we can envisage that is our preference. So we could even decide to sacrifice our lives if we thought it was for the greater good. But that's not free will. You were constrained by the conditions. You could only make a decision based on those conditions. Free will is the ability to make a decision [I]outside[/I] of those conditions. Free of those conditions. Separate from them. Free will is the ability to make a decision that wasn't caused by anything. And if the world is determinate then every event is caused by a previous event. It cannot be any other way. You might make a quick decision to do X. There'll be a reason for it. But if you pondered for months about it and investigated all aspects of every possible input and all likely outcomes then there's still a reason for it. It might be different than the spontaneous decision but input varies output. One thing leads to another and you can't change that. You couldn't have done anything else because it's a determinate world. If someone says they can break this chain of cause and effect then I need to know where this happens. Every argument against it I've seen is not much more than 'Well, I just decided to do it'. Which means the 'I' there is outside of everything, ignoring cause and effect or somehow preventing it from happening. And that makes no sense. It's something I've mentioned myself at times. We are simply parts of the universe that have become self aware. Maybe it was something that Sagan once said. If he didn't then I'm sure it was his view anyway. But by being a small part of the whole doesn't exclude us from being constrained by the same rules that govern everything. We haven't been sprinkled with some magic dust that allows us to escape from that. It's generally only a religious viewpoint that allows for that. [/QUOTE]
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