Pro-Palestinian supporters at Columbia University confront Jews ‘to push them out of camp’

essentialsaltes said:

They have that in common with Jews. Maybe there's the avenue for peace & unity.

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I wanted to reply to this post again as I thought a different perspective may be good as you have implied that maybe there is some common belief or value these conflicting nations can come to.

I then thought of times gone by when the Muslims and Jews did get along in relative peace and it seems at least their belief in the same God as well as their relative similar ethnicity and culture they have much in common.

It seems the main difference I see is the rise of Islamist extremism. I don't think the average person goes along with this but are very subject to it and fear not going along as is the power over them and how radical Islam works with Sharia law and all that.

I believe though many people outside the conflict zone such as the other Arab nations who also have some history and memories of being at peace with the Isrealis may be open to make some sort of treaty between themselves and Isreal which would then isolate the radicals. Along with the UN, the western coalition and the Arab treaty its a pretty big opposition against radical Islam.

That is why I think Iran is doing everything to stop anything like this happening. They want the opposite. They want division, chaos so that they can infiltrate their ideology and it seems to be working. We are seeing the same ideology pop up in western nations with antisemetism and radical groups.

Thats why I think this ongoing issue about radical Islam in the world is coming to a head and we need to unite against it. Thats why I think Isreal had enough as they are in the forefront of this. We know what its like with attacks on the west. Imagine facing that every single day for years.

I think the Isrealis are very patient which shows they are concerned for the welfare of others. But how long can someone put up with being attacked. I think the October the 6th was the straw that broke the camels back and Isreal realised that it was time to deal with the threat.

stevevw said:

I wanted to reply to this post again as I thought a different perspective may be good as you have implied that maybe there is some common belief or value these conflicting nations can come to.

I then thought of times gone by when the Muslims and Jews did get along in relative peace and it seems at least their belief in the same God as well as their relative similar ethnicity and culture they have much in common.

It seems the main difference I see is the rise of Islamist extremism. I don't think the average person goes along with this but are very subject to it and fear not going along as is the power over them and how radical Islam works with Sharia law and all that.

I believe though many people outside the conflict zone such as the other Arab nations who also have some history and memories of being at peace with the Isrealis may be open to make some sort of treaty between themselves and Isreal which would then isolate the radicals. Along with the UN, the western coalition and the Arab treaty its a pretty big opposition against radical Islam.

That is why I think Iran is doing everything to stop anything like this happening. They want the opposite. They want division, chaos so that they can infiltrate their ideology and it seems to be working. We are seeing the same ideology pop up in western nations with antisemetism and radical groups.

Thats why I think this ongoing issue about radical Islam in the world is coming to a head and we need to unite against it. Thats why I think Isreal had enough as they are in the forefront of this. We know what its like with attacks on the west. Imagine facing that every single day for years.

I think the Isrealis are very patient which shows they are concerned for the welfare of others. But how long can someone put up with being attacked. I think the October the 6th was the straw that broke the camels back and Isreal realised that it was time to deal with the threat.

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Maybe we should have thought of that before we started meddling in the affairs of these countries, redrawing their borders, overthrowing their governments when it suited us, hacking out a country for a bunch of Europeans in the midst of them, stuff like that.

The thing is the original rise of the Arabic states was a secular revolt against the Islamic Ottoman Empire. The Arabs felt betrayed by the Western powers after World War I. I believe the Arabic hostility to the Jews is unsound.

UC Berkeley to consider divestment from weapons as pro-Palestinian protesters remove encampment​

Pro-Palestinian protesters at UC Berkeley took down all but a few tents on a central campus plaza Tuesday, in an agreement that appeared to end one of the largest and longest student encampments in the country as Chancellor Carol Christ said she would initiate a discussion about the university’s investments in weapons companies and the possible divestment from them.

And the chancellor said she supported examining Berkeley’s investments in “a targeted list of companies due to their participation in weapons manufacturing, mass incarceration, and/or surveillance industries.”

Speaking at the regents committee meeting Tuesday in Merced, UC Chief Investment Officer Jagdeep Singh Bachher said that more than 18% of UC’s $175 billion in investments is tied to Israel, weapons companies and other holdings targeted by pro-Palestinian divestment activists.

In California, three other universities have reached agreements with pro-Palestinian protesters who have dismantled encampments: Sacramento State, Occidental Collegeand UC Riverside.

stevevw said:

Well you would think so as they all believe in the same old Testament God. Its just the fullfillment of that God that is in conflict. The first thing to note is that the same God is acknowledged by all these religions.

It seems to me that Christ is the sticking point and as I mentioned this seems to be very much the case with the Muslims. It seems the creation of their religion was primarily to dispute Christ.

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I don't see that at all. Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet. And he has an important role to play in their eschaton. He just doesn't happen to be divine.

Judaism doesn't revere Jesus at all. Obviously many Jews in Jesus' time disputed him to his face. They were well positioned to hear Jesus' teachings for themselves, and to hear what his followers were saying afterwards. No soap.

BCP1928 said:

Maybe we should have thought of that before we started meddling in the affairs of these countries, redrawing their borders, overthrowing their governments when it suited us, hacking out a country for a bunch of Europeans in the midst of them, stuff like that.

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No one has overthrown any governments. Isreal pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and with that uprooted all Isrealis within Gaza, that is displaced even their own people to allow the Palestinians to create their own State.

But Hamas immediate moved in and took over and never held democractic elections to this day. So if anyone has meddled into the affairs of the Palestinians in Gaza its Hamas.

Yes Europeans should not have got involved. But I think they were trying to do the right thing in a complex situation that had been goind on for years. Remembering that they were trying to clean up the mess created by other nations like the Ottermans and various Islamist nations like Iran.

Remembering that any peace deal was always broken by the the radical Islamist who represented the Palestinians.

But a similar peace deal involving other Arab nations was already put on the table through the Abraham Accord for which some Arab nations like Jordan and Saudi Arabia were warming to and could have led to an accord.

But it seems the Biden administration has not taken up the Accord and are choosing to paterner up with Iran.

Taken together with the Biden administration’s sustained information campaign against the Saudis over “values” as well as energy policy, the offer America is making its two leading regional allies is clear: Forget the anti-Iran Abraham Accords framework. The path to team Obama-Biden’s approval is through “regional integration” with Iran.

Why Has Biden Stopped Pushing for Arab-Israeli Peace?

essentialsaltes said:

I don't see that at all. Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet. And he has an important role to play in their eschaton. He just doesn't happen to be divine.

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Muslims sort of respect Jesus as a prophet but they reject that Christ was crucified and rose again accending into heaven. Its interesting that they substitute instead Mohummad accending into heaven. This seems to be a specific challenge to trump Christs status and substitute it with Mohummad and Islam.

So obviously they are not going to completely deny Christ as they would have known of His good deeds and miracles. But they knew what they were doing when they disputed Christs status as God. That was a direct slap in the fact for Christians who were dominant at the time. That slap has been going on for 100's of years now.

Why do think they hate Christians even to the point of picking them out to be either forced into submission or killed

4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him
4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah:
5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.
5:72 They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode.
5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger;

So really if Muslims are true to their word Christians declaring Christ to be the Son of God and God are blaspheming. What does the Koran say about blasphemers. According to Sharia Law blaspheming is a criminal offence with the possibility of the death penalty.

Classical, as well as some modern, interpretations of Sharia regard the death penalty as the most appropriate punishment for apostates. Blasphemy connotes the insult of God or Prophet Mohammad and other revered figures in Islam, and can be committed by believers and non-believers alike.

He shall first be asked to repent, then he is either to repent or be executed by a decision from the competent authority, i.e., the Shariah court.
Similarly, if someone reviles the Quran or the Messenger (prayers and peace of Allah be upon him) or any other Prophet, he shall first be asked to repent, then he is either to repent or be executed. Naturally, abusing believers may be a grave sin punished with lashing and only surpassed by disbelief and murder.

Not only is the claim that Jesus is the Son of God a basis for hating Christians but the nature of God is also rejected by Muslims and the Qur’an. Moreover, Jesus taught that God is love, he modeled that love dying for humanity, and taught that humans are to love one another, love your neighbor as yourself, even love your enemy.

What did Mohammed teach?
Mohammed taught hate and jihad against unbelievers, pagans, Jews, and Christians.
Pro-Palestinian supporters at Columbia University confront Jews ‘to push them out of camp’

So how does the Islamist ideology pan out in todays world. Well we only have to look at the rise in hate crimes against Christians by Islamists which is growing around the world. When I say Christians I also mean the West,

“Non-Muslim communities have become endangered species throughout much of the Islamic world,” Christian human rights advocate John Eibner wrote in the Boston Globe last month. From mobs torching churches in Cairo to massacres of Christians in Iraq and Egypt to last winter’s assassination of a Christian Pakistani cabinet minister and the beheading of a Tunisian Catholic priest, jihadists are committing violence in a “toxic culture of extremist Muslim supremacy,”

Both. Governments—and illustrative cases would be Egypt, Iraq, Turkey—have systematically over the 20th century oppressed their Christian minorities, to the point that in Turkey they’re almost erased, and in Iraq have declined precipitously.

Persecution of Christians 'coming close to genocide' in Middle East – report

Yet Woke Left ideologues are awefully quite about the upsurge in Christian persecution around the world. But very quick to condemn the Isrealis for defending themselves while hestitating to condemn Hamas who represents this horrific extremism.

The Jews don't really go to those lengths and are quite hospitable to Christians and in fact there are many Jewish Christians. I don't think there are many Muslim Christians. The Jews can sort of handle if Christ was the Messiah as it doesn't really change their book and God. It actually fullfills it. But for Muslims it represents so much more as it challenges Mohummad as the great and last Prophet of God and Mohummad is what destingusihes much of Muslims and Christians.

essentialsaltes said:

Judaism doesn't revere Jesus at all. Obviously many Jews in Jesus' time disputed him to his face. They were well positioned to hear Jesus' teachings for themselves, and to hear what his followers were saying afterwards. No soap.

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Yeah "No soap" that they had to get rid of Him. Of course they don't revere Jesus as the Son of God and Messiah. If they did they would be contradicting their own belief that the Messiah has not come yet.

Christ claimed he was the Messiah they had been waiting for so it was a direct threat to the High Priests and Pharisees. Especially when he called them out for hypocracy. But then many Jews who went on to establish Christ church including the majoirty of disciples and Peter who was made the rock on which the church was built.

stevevw said:

The Jews don't really go to those lengths and are quite hospitable to Christians and in fact there are many Jewish Christians. I don't think there are many Muslim Christians. The Jews can sort of handle if Christ was the Messiah as it doesn't really change their book and God. It actually fullfills it. But for Muslims it represents so much more as it challenges Mohummad as the great and last Prophet of God and Mohummad is what destingusihes much of Muslims and Christians.

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Jewish Christians? Muslim Christians? What fantasy are you channeling now? What about Shinto Zoroastrians or Rastafarian Methodists?

stevevw said:

Muslims sort of respect Jesus as a prophet but they reject that Christ was crucified and rose again accending into heaven. Its interesting that they substitute instead Mohummad accending into heaven. This seems to be a specific challenge to trump Christs status and substitute it with Mohummad and Islam.

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Islam teaches that it was Jesus who ascended.

God said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing. As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment, in this world and the next, and they will have no helpers. And as for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their rewards in full. God does not love the unjust.” (Quran 3:55-57)

stevevw said:

I don't think there are many Muslim Christians. The Jews can sort of handle if Christ was the Messiah as it doesn't really change their book and God. It actually fullfills it. But for Muslims it represents so much more as it challenges Mohummad as the great and last Prophet of God and Mohummad is what destingusihes much of Muslims and Christians.

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Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah sent to the children of Israel to confirm the Torah and bring them the gospel.

The Angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child, when no man has touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is." And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. A messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord... I heal the blind and the leprous, and I revive the dead, by God’s leave. And I inform you concerning what you eat, and what you store in your homes. In that is a sign for you, if you are believers. And verifying what lies before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear God, and obey me.” (Qur'an 3:45,47-50)

stevevw said:

Muslims sort of respect Jesus as a prophet but they reject that Christ was crucified and rose again accending into heaven.

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Right, and Jews do not respect Jesus as a prophet and also reject that he rose again.

essentialsaltes said:

Right, and Jews do not respect Jesus as a prophet and also reject that he rose again.

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The big difference is that the Jews are willing to allow Christians to express their belief and the Islamists don't. They don't even allow the Jews to pray at their own Temple mount let alone allow Christians to declare Christ is the Son of God and God incarnate. That is regarded as blaspsemy and the punishment is lashing and death.

It would be more natural for Jews to believe in Christ as that would not change their belief as the same God promised a Messiah and Christ could fill that role for Jews. Whereas Islamist cannot possibily entertain the idea of the reality of Christ as it would completely undermine their belief that God has no son and the only God.

That is why they are so much more invested in stopping Christianity because its a threat to their very existence and because they created their religion out of disputing the status of Christ.

JosephZ said:

Islam teaches that it was Jesus who ascended.

God said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing. As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment, in this world and the next, and they will have no helpers. And as for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their rewards in full. God does not love the unjust.” (Quran 3:55-57)

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Yes but Christ is made out to be like other prophets and not the Messiah or Son of God who asseneded into heaven to sit at the right side of God. They treat Him like Elijah who was taken up into heaven.

JosephZ said:

Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah sent to the children of Israel to confirm the Torah and bring them the gospel.

The Angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child, when no man has touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is." And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. A messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord... I heal the blind and the leprous, and I revive the dead, by God’s leave. And I inform you concerning what you eat, and what you store in your homes. In that is a sign for you, if you are believers. And verifying what lies before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear God, and obey me.” (Qur'an 3:45,47-50)

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So what is the Koran saying. Is it telling the Jews that Jesus is Messiah, the promised Messiah. The same Messiah as the Torah says will be like a lamb to the slaughter and scrificed for the sins of the world. The same Messiah that happened to be born to a virgin

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. (God is with us).
The same Messiah who dies for our sins. Who was crucified for our sins as the New Testament says.
Isaiah 53: 4-5
Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Or was that some other Messiah, just an ordinary man like Elijah or Mohummad. Islamist deny the God staus of Christ as the Son of God and the promised Messiah that fullfills the Old Testament.

If a Christian was to proclaim that Christ is the Son of God and God incarnate this would be blasphemy. So they are certainly not acknowledging Christ as the Messiah, the promised Messiah and Saviour.

BCP1928 said:

Jewish Christians? Muslim Christians? What fantasy are you channeling now? What about Shinto Zoroastrians or Rastafarian Methodists?

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I mean Jews or Muslims becoming Christians or aligning withe Christianity. Its not a big step for Jews as They believe that a Messiah will fullfill GOds promise, will be sacrificed for our sins. That is what Christ represents to Christians. All Jews have to do is accept to Christ is that Messiah they have been waiting for. Christains believe in the same Old Testament as the Jews so we also have that in common.

But Islam has changed some of the Old Testament and could never entertain the idea of accepting Christ as this would make their entire religion false. They cannot accommodate this and that is why they are so against Christ and Christians. Though they are also against any other belief apart from Islam even non belief. But they reserve special attention to Christians.

stevevw said:

No one has overthrown any governments.

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When the Ottoman empire was dissolved, the borders of the middle eastern countries which exist today were drawn by the western powers without much concern for the people who lived there or what they wanted for themselves, and the newly created polities were handed over to factions who supported our interest in the area (oil, mostly) This eventually included creating a country intended to be inhabited by european immigrants, without any regard for the people who lived there already being displaced. The popular government of Iran was overthrown in a violent coup orchestrated by the CIA and a vicious tyrant sympathetic to our interests was installed by force in its place. That, of course, is merely the backdrop of the present situation and is not meant to be a catalogue of all of the self-serving interventions of the West into middle eastern politics, up to the present time.

stevevw said:

I mean Jews or Muslims becoming Christians or aligning withe Christianity. Its not a big step for Jews as They believe that a Messiah will fullfill GOds promise, will be sacrificed for our sins. That is what Christ represents to Christians. All Jews have to do is accept to Christ is that Messiah they have been waiting for. Christains believe in the same Old Testament as the Jews so we also have that in common.

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You mean conversion. As soon as a Jew accepts Jesus as the expected Messiah he stops being a Jew and becomes a Christian. He is not a "Jewish Christian."

stevevw said:

But Islam has changed some of the Old Testament and could never entertain the idea of accepting Christ as this would make their entire religion false. They cannot accommodate this and that is why they are so against Christ and Christians. Though they are also against any other belief apart from Islam even non belief. But they reserve special attention to Christians.

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Yes, they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, was crucified and taken into heaven and will return on the last day "to judge both the quick and the dead." But they balk at the idea that God would father a child by a human woman, considering the notion blasphemous. In any case, a Muslim who accepts Jesus as God has stopped being a Muslim. He is not a "Muslim Christian."

stevevw said:

The big difference is that the Jews are willing to allow Christians to express their belief and the Islamists don't. They don't even allow the Jews to pray at their own Temple mount

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The goalposts have flown around so much, this is Calvinball. We've moved from "Muslims" to "'Islamists' in Jerusalem and/or countries under strict sharia law".

stevevw said:

It would be more natural for Jews to believe in Christ as that would not change their belief as the same God promised a Messiah and Christ could fill that role for Jews.

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Whether this is your theology, or your bizarre craving for Muslims to be 'worse', the fact is that Jews just aren't into Jesus. No soap.

stevevw said:

The big difference is that the Jews are willing to allow Christians to express their belief and the Islamists don't. They don't even allow the Jews to pray at their own Temple mount let alone allow Christians to declare Christ is the Son of God and God incarnate. That is regarded as blaspsemy and the punishment is lashing and death.

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It's the Israeli government that controls access to the Temple Mount and prevents non-Muslims from praying there. Its for both security and religious reasons.

stevevw said:

Yes but Christ is made out to be like other prophets and not the Messiah or Son of God who asseneded into heaven to sit at the right side of God. They treat Him like Elijah who was taken up into heaven.

Or was that some other Messiah, just an ordinary man like Elijah or Mohummad. Islamist deny the God staus of Christ as the Son of God and the promised Messiah that fullfills the Old Testament.

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Islam teaches that Muhammad, is currently in al Barzakh waiting on the day of ressurection.

“Verily, you [Muhammad] will certainly die, and they will die too.” (Az-Zumar:30)

“Barzakh is the grave. Its duration commences from the time of death until the Day of Judgement.” (al-Kāfi)

Unlike Muhammad, Islam teaches that God raised Jesus up to heaven, body and soul, and until now he is still alive in the presence of God, and he will return again on judgment day, where he will defeat the anti-Christ, die, and be raised up.

And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. (Qur’an 4:157)

When Jesus descends, his spirit and his breath will cause every unbeliever it finds to die. His breath will reach the distance of his sight, so his breath will reach the Dajjāl [the anti-Christ] at the distance of a span from the gate of Lydda. (Kitab al-fitan)

Jesus son of Mary will catch the Dajjāl after he flees from him, so when his descend reaches him, he will catch him at the eastern gate of Lydda and kill him. (Abū Umāma al-Bāhilī)

"Peace is upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I get resurrected alive.” That is Jesus son of Mary; the Word of truth about which they doubt. (Qur'an 19:33-34)

And while denying the the deity of Jesus and him being the son of God, he is described in many other ways that Muhammad is not.

The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is the Messenger of God, and His Word that He conveyed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. (Qur'an 4:171)

We gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had God willed, their followers would not have fought with each other, after the clear proofs had come to them. Instead, they disputed among themselves; some of them believed, and some disbelieved. (Qur’an 2:253)

BCP1928 said:

Maybe we should have thought of that before we started meddling in the affairs of these countries, redrawing their borders, overthrowing their governments when it suited us, hacking out a country for a bunch of Europeans in the midst of them, stuff like that.

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maaaaaybe...

civilwarbuff said:

You don't recognize irony when you see it, do you?

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I recognise nonsense - you write a lot of that. I also recognise backtracking and moving the goalposts - you do that as well.

civilwarbuff said:

No but I do understand their belief that much of that aid will end up in the hands of hamas and simply strengthen them.

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A belief based on Israeli propaganda not fact.
Women in the Gaza Strip struggle to protect their children

and before you give out the usual you can't trust the UN nonsense ask yourself if those photos are genuine and what do they show. Btw what is the military use for baby powder?