Virginia school board votes to restore Confederate names to two schools

essentialsaltes said:

Nearly four years ago, the Shenandoah County School Board ... moved to rename Stonewall Jackson High School and Ashby Lee Elementary School. The schools had been named after Confederate Gens. Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson, Robert E. Lee and Turner Ashby.

That 2020 move was part of a resolution condemning racism and affirming the district’s “commitment to an inclusive school environment,” according to school board documents.

The schools have been called Mountain View High School and Honey Run Elementary School since July 2021, according to board documents.

But the composition of the school board is different now than it was during the 2020 decision – all six seats are held by different people.

The 5-1 vote came after hours of public comment during a meeting that began Thursday evening from people speaking on both sides of the issue. Vice Chairman Kyle L. Gutshall was the sole opposing vote.

“I ask that when you cast your vote, you remember that Stonewall Jackson and others fighting on the side of the Confederacy in this area were intent on protecting the land, the buildings and the lives of those under attack,” said a woman urging the board to restore the Confederate names. “Preservation is the focus of those wishing to restore the names.”

Sarah Kohrs, a mother of two students attending schools in the district, is among several parents and residents who said ahead of the vote that they were opposed to restoring the Confederacy-tied names and were frustrated it was being considered.

“It’s very frustrating to know that here we are four years after that, and we still have a small portion of the community that just refuses to move on,” Kohrs told CNN.

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Is this to groom others to accept a Red v Blue state civil war? We will find out thanks to DJT.

ThatRobGuy said:

There's a difference between "preserving history", and "showing reverence to the ideas".

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It's not reverencing an idea. It's the name of a historical figure from the south. Robert E Lee was a great general and I reverence him for it but also Sherman. A lot of people don't like Sherman's methods but he ended the war on his watch with destruction. Sort of like the Atom bomb on Japan. Do you know the Union army had slaves and didn't allow them to fight until later in the civil war because Robert was kicking their butts? Grant owned slaves lol

ThatRobGuy said:

Building a brand new high school in 1959 during a tumultuous racial tension period (and naming it after confederates), is showing reverence. Or in the case of the Elementary school in question, that was built in 1975.

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Well, we ought to take every American president's name off schools and monuments because Blacks were still treated badly after the Civil War.

When I go to Washinton DC with my grandkids I'll be able to talk to them about all the racist monuments. I'm Out

Pommer said:

Should it come to war, Xi and Putin would likely divvy up whatever remained.

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Yes, then they'll fight each other for our resources. Mankind will destroy each other to be number one.

Laodicean60 said:

Yes, then they'll fight each other for our resources. Mankind will destroy each other to be number one.

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Or we could stop constantly fighting with one another and have a peaceful world?

Laodicean60 said:

Well, we ought to take every American president's name off schools and monuments because Blacks were still treated badly after the Civil War.

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Nope, just the names of traitors like Lee.

Arcangl86 said:

There is a difference between changing history and holding up somebody as an example, which is why you would name something after somebody. It's the reason we don't have things named after people like Benedict Arnold or Judas.

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Not changing history but hiding history. I make it a talking point with my grandkids. I ask them if they know the person and converse with them about the terrible things we have done to each other in the past. I have a black granddaughter and will talk to her about slavery and racism. I would rather talk to her about history instead of having the media manipulate her mind for their agenda.

Laodicean60 said:

Not changing history but hiding history.

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History is hidden if we don’t name schools after those involved? Best name some schools in Oklahoma City after McVeigh otherwise that’s being hidden.

Laodicean60 said:

Not changing history but hiding history. I make it a talking point with my grandkids. I ask them if they know the person and converse with them about the terrible things we have done to each other in the past. I have a black granddaughter and will talk to her about slavery and racism. I would rather talk to her about history instead of having the media manipulate her mind for their agenda.

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What sorts of things would you be shielding your granddaughter from?

Laodicean60 said:

.....A lot of people don't like Sherman's methods but he ended the war on his watch with destruction. Sort of like the Atom bomb on Japan.....

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Basically, dont be starting wars. More often than not every side does various atrocities.

ThatRobGuy said:

That, and like I noted, most of those schools and statues weren't even "historical" in the true sense.

It's not as if it was some old civil war era schoolhouse that was named after after a confederate general at the time.

Bell bottoms and disco were already in style when they built one of those aforementioned schools and decided to name it after a confederate general.

Same is true for a lot of those monuments that were points of contention (the parks and statues, etc...) Most of those were built decades and decades after the civil war was over by people who didn't know the guys (and some weren't even born yet when the civil war was happening).

It was more of a way for people in the south to signal "we liked the way things were before...if you catch my drift", and a way to communicate by "saying it without actually saying it" what they thought of non-Whites.

The "preserving history" argument has always been a rather weak one in that regard.

If we don't build this new park in 1975 and name it after Robert E Lee with a 25 foot high flattering statue honoring him in the center of it, people may forget about the civil war and "how bad it was", right guys??? nudge nudge

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Yeah so we we arent erasing the history of the actual event.
We're just "erasing" the propaganda that emerged often 100 years later.

Pommer said:

What sorts of things would you be shielding your granddaughter from?

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Fifth-generation warfare

Laodicean60 said:

Fifth-generation warfare

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Okay, i ain’t got a clue and that’s probably a good thing.

Pommer said:

Okay, i ain’t got a clue and that’s probably a good thing.

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A few examples from the internet:

5th generation warfare is a concept that refers to a type of warfare that is characterized by the use of non-kinetic means to achieve strategic objectives. It is often described as a “war of perceptions” or a “battle of ideas,” and it involves the use of various forms of psychological warfare, propaganda, and disinformation to influence the thoughts and actions of an adversary.

Here are some examples of 5th generation warfare:

The Arab Spring: The Arab Spring was a series of protests and uprisings that swept across the Middle East and North Africa in 2010-2012. It was characterized by the use of social media and other forms of digital communication to organize and mobilize protests, and it was often described as a form of 5th generation warfare.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine: The Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014 was a 5th generation warfare operation that involved the use of cyber warfare, propaganda, and disinformation to achieve strategic objectives.

The Syrian Civil War: The Syrian Civil War was a 5th generation warfare operation that involved the use of various forms of psychological warfare, including propaganda, disinformation, and social media manipulation, to influence the thoughts and actions of the Syrian people and to undermine the government of Bashar al-Assad.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a long-standing and complex conflict that has involved various forms of 5th generation warfare, including the use of propaganda, disinformation, and social media manipulation to influence public opinion and to achieve strategic objectives.

The COVID-19 pandemic: The COVID-19 pandemic was a global health crisis that was characterized by the use of 5th generation warfare tactics, including the use of propaganda, disinformation, and social media manipulation to influence public opinion and to shape the global response to the pandemic.

It’s worth noting that 5th generation warfare is a relatively new concept, and it is still evolving. As such, there is ongoing debate among military strategists and scholars about the nature and characteristics of 5th generation warfare, and about its implications for the conduct of war and the maintenance of national security.
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Context

R E Lee high school in Staunton voted in 2019 to revert back to the original Staunton High. Whereas Turner Ashby High in Rockingham County kept its name. And it was named as an act of Massive Resistance against school desegregation. The heightened polarization in America now seems to show us these local decisions will vary depending on leadership at the time. Since reality is no longer shared by the majority of Americans. Partly sunny will always be seen as mostly cloudy by some people. I find it mildly ironic how the most southern county of these three counties is the one who had the fortitude to actually remove Mr Lee's name from their high school. For now...

Rewarding bad behavior reinforces said behavior. And likely ensures the bad behavior will be repeated. I actually know some of these people in Shenandoah County. Their thinking seems quite defensive when it comes to the Civil War. They are still offended how other Americans have the audacity to call their Civil War "heroes" insurrectionists. It's really bizarre. They are still very willfully attached to their history and still very proud, no humility at all. Obstinate if you will, regardless of objective truth. I'm sure those militias are busy up in the hollers. I occasionally hear cannons shooting in my neck of the woods. History is deeply steeped in the Old Dominion, regardless of the ethical or moral flaws in this history.

Some genetic pools will need a few more generations of diluting before they are able to accept diversity and actual history of America. Feelings of supremacy as well as racism take longer to mitigate when folks aren't willing to face their own shortcomings. It took the majority of Americans six to eight generations to grapple with the idea that all Americans should be treated equally, and able to enjoy the same privileges. The struggle remains ongoing it seems.

Some folks you just can't reach... because they plug their ears and look away from uncomfortable concepts. These people cannot move on without closure. And closure is simply not possible without acceptance. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...

Laodicean60 said:

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Isn’t this an example of what you decry?

Pommer said:

Isn’t this an example of what you decry?

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Not now, Ai will have everyone confused but it's in its infancy. By your reply, I take it you don't believe it.

Laodicean60 said:

Not now, Ai will have everyone confused but it's in its infancy. By your reply, I take it you don't believe it.

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That’s always “stuff going on”.
I needn’t pay attention to the same stuff going on that you might take note about.

Pommer said:

That’s always “stuff going on”.
I needn’t pay attention to the same stuff going on that you might take note about.

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We are busy people on this forum. We have to get our jabs in. Here is something else and I learned two new terms.

Laodicean60 said:

It's not reverencing an idea. It's the name of a historical figure from the south. Robert E Lee was a great general and I reverence him for it but also Sherman. A lot of people don't like Sherman's methods but he ended the war on his watch with destruction. Sort of like the Atom bomb on Japan. Do you know the Union army had slaves and didn't allow them to fight until later in the civil war because Robert was kicking their butts? Grant owned slaves lol

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How is it not? Why dedicate a building to (or erect statues in honor of) someone who everyone supposedly agrees were fighting for some pretty bad ideas if not to "send a certain message"?

There's a difference between people who have a flawed past, and preserving the things about them that were done at the time vs. people 50-100 years later (who claim to know that what they were doing was wrong) putting up monuments and statues to honor people who were championing a bad cause?

Laodicean60 said:

Well, we ought to take every American president's name off schools and monuments because Blacks were still treated badly after the Civil War.

When I go to Washinton DC with my grandkids I'll be able to talk to them about all the racist monuments. I'm Out

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What were the motivations for the naming rights and monuments we're talking about? Because intent is key.

"We're naming this school after this US president" (who may have had some flaws)
...is quite different than...
"We're doing it 50 years after the fact to let people know that what these men were fighting for was something we see as worthy of reverance"

Let's be frank here, if the "history preservation angle" was at all sincere, then why does the same group of people (who support the confederate flag and monuments) seem to be the ones that have the biggest problem with cases when there's controversy about the Mexican flag being flown in certain places?

There are parts of this country that used to be Mexico's territory, so if there's a city with a lot of Mexican-American descendants, and they want to fly a Mexican flag over their city hall, or name a park/school after a Mexican general who fought against the Americans, or erect statues of their generals 50-100 years later in order to "preserve and acknowledge history" that should be no problem right?? And I would expect the "it's about heritage, not hate" crowd to rush to their defense on that one. There should be a windfall of people in southern states (who claim to be against erasing history) rushing to the defense of the Mexican flag being flown in certain places in the US.

...oh wait

The Mexican flag has become a lightning rod in the immigration debate that's consumed the city and the nation this week. Students say the flag represents their pride in the contributions Mexicans make to this country. Critics, though, said watching young Hispanics in the streets with the red, green and white flags is more than they can stand. These youngsters are in the United States and should — at the least — carry the U.S. flag, they argue.
"The whole thing just makes my blood boil," said Bruce R. Wing, a 52-year-old Missouri City resident. "I want them all out of here."

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the confederate flags that people like to flap around don't induce the same "blood boiling reaction" for Bruce. I wonder why...

ThatRobGuy said:

How is it not? Why dedicate a building to (or erect statues in honor of) someone who everyone supposedly agrees were fighting for some pretty bad ideas if not to "send a certain message"?

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When I see Robert E Lee named on a school I think about the General. I understand what the war represented. You do know that Black Confederates very few compared to those fighting for the North. There were also anti-slavery persons fighting for the same. A lot of Negros followed their masters by force.

ThatRobGuy said:

There's a difference between people who have a flawed past, and preserving the things about them that were done at the time vs. people 50-100 years later (who claim to know that what they were doing was wrong) putting up monuments and statues to honor people who were championing a bad cause?

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You can spin the flawed past but I don't buy it. We treated Negros badly before during and after the civil war. The same prejudice policies were in place during the World Wars, till 1943 (airmen) and 1944 (infantry). Negros held menial jobs in the Union (later combat), Confederate (very few fought and received pensions), and the US Army. What does that say for our leaders and the US Army? You say segregation is a flaw I call it Racism. Go vandalize Confederate soldier Henry Brown's statue down.

ThatRobGuy said:

Let's be frank here, if the "history preservation angle" was at all sincere, then why does the same group of people (who support the confederate flag and monuments)

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I can tell you it isn't Racism for most it's Southern pride I owned one (you placed me in a bad group in your mind) and if you live in the North you might not understand.
Have you heard the song Sweet Home Alabama "A southern man don't need him (northerner Niel Young) around...." It's tribalism because the flag represented southern states. I didn't buy that flag because I wanted to put Negro in chains. I had a lot of black friends. Don't get me wrong there are a few that think differently. There are racists in all colors.

ThatRobGuy said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the confederate flags that people like to flap around don't induce the same "blood boiling reaction" for Bruce. I wonder why...

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That is a long limb in my eyes I won't speculate on his motives. My brain isn't skewed that way.

Maybe it's the uneducated youth manipulated by the media. The youth hasn't seen what Boomer has. Have you heard Morgan Freeman talk about Race I agree with him, he truly experienced racism. Like him, I believe we've come a long way. If you look for the boogie man everywhere you'll find him that's the way our brains work. Freeman said paraphrase: "If you talk about racism it exists...making it a bigger issue than it needs to be." He comes from a day when there were only handful of blacks in Hollywood. He said in another interview that Holywood today has all kinds of people accepted.
I've spent enough time on this subject and I want to argue lol about something else. We'll have to disagree.