The Triumph of Bidenomics!

NxNW · Apr 24, 2024

probinson said:
Y'all have some serious struggles getting gas. Even when we had the week-long outage last year, it was not at all difficult to get gas anywhere.

I remember the headlines when a pipeline broke and most of Arizona ran out of gas for an entire week.

Gas Shortage Eases in Phoenix As Pipeline Resumes Pumping (Published 2003)

probinson · Apr 24, 2024

NxNW said:
I remember the headlines when a pipeline broke and most of Arizona ran out of gas for an entire week.

Gas Shortage Eases in Phoenix As Pipeline Resumes Pumping (Published 2003)

I don't remember that. But then, that was almost 21 years ago in a single city. I think that's the quintessential definition of "edge case".

SimplyMe · Apr 24, 2024

probinson said:
Eh. I've seen my brother-in-law's. I was underewhelmed to say the least. But since he primarily uses it in the city, he's quite happy with it.

I would have agreed with you, it doesn't look like much. I was shocked the first time I sat in one at how much space the driver has and, driving one, I found that it drives very well. Granted, it isn't a sports car but it is quick (with typical electric torque), enough power, and very nimble -- perfect for city driving.

probinson said:
What is quite likely to hurt the resale value of the Bolt (and pretty much all other current EVs) is advancements in technology. As batteries continue to improve on range and charging times, no one is going to want one of those slow-charging relics. But then, that's the price of early adoption for anything.

Maybe because you were trying to equate a Bolt with a long distance "touring" car.

probinson said:
A Bolt that charges as fast as a Tesla Model 3 doesn't exist. And I have no idea why you're pretending these are analogous vehicles. The Tesla Model 3 is WAY more expensive than the current base level Bolt. Their only real similarity is that they're both electric cars.

Right. Because there have never been announcements from companies that were either delayed or turned out to be complete vaporware. Let's just wait and see what actually comes to market. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the new Bolt ultimately becomes (another) casualty of their scaled back EV production due to slowing demand. But I could be wrong. Bolts could be sitting on the docks as we speak... but I doubt it.

They typically don't if they already said they were cancelling car and then bring, due to customers, announce they are going to bring it back -- which I think says a lot for how much owners (like your brother) loved the Bolt. It is also possible it might be delayed a bit longer.

probinson said:
It really doesn't. The issues I've raised with EVs still exist now, and the price for EVs is absolutely not on par with ICE equivalents.

You really haven't. The two real issues you've brought up is more "time" to road trip the car, about 10% more (for most cars meant for road trips) and that they are more expensive new. Range is an issue for some percentage of people, though statistics indicate less than 10% of Americans. You also seemingly refuse to acknowledge the advantages of EVs.

probinson said:
That's true. So long as you're willing to pay (A LOT) more and deal with the shortcomings I've discussed.

Yes, just as your K5 cost a lot more than the Kia Rio, that you also wouldn't want and that people would not want to road trip with.

probinson · Apr 24, 2024

SimplyMe said:
I would have agreed with you, it doesn't look like much. I was shocked the first time I sat in one at how much space the driver has and, driving one, I found that it drives very well. Granted, it isn't a sports car but it is quick (with typical electric torque), enough power, and very nimble -- perfect for city driving.

Yes, it is perfect for city driving. Does it have a lot of space? Nope. Completely underwhelming.

SimplyMe said:
Maybe because you were trying to equate a Bolt with a long distance "touring" car.

I'm not trying to "equate" anything. You were the one that didn't like my real-world example and introduced a much more expensive long-range EV to the discussion.

SimplyMe said:
They typically don't if they already said they were cancelling car and then bring, due to customers, announce they are going to bring it back -- which I think says a lot for how much owners (like your brother) loved the Bolt. It is also possible it might be delayed a bit longer.

Only time will tell.

Right now there is a lot of instability and uncertainty surrounding the EV market. Anything could happen.

SimplyMe said:
You really haven't. The two real issues you've brought up is more "time" to road trip the car, about 10% more (for most cars meant for road trips) and that they are more expensive new. Range is an issue for some percentage of people, though statistics indicate less than 10% of Americans.

Range anxiety is second only to price as to why people say they aren't buying EVs. You can keep pretending it's not an issue if you like, but you're only deluding yourself.

SimplyMe said:
You also seemingly refuse to acknowledge the advantages of EVs.

Not sure why you have to be dishonest. I've acknowledged multiple times throughout this thread that if all you're doing is driving locally, an EV is probably perfect for you. But an EV lacks the ability to completely take the place of ICE vehicle without significant limitations when you decide to actually go beyond the "average". Even EV advocates tacitly admit this when they say that an EV is good as a second car.

SimplyMe said:
Yes, just as your K5 cost a lot more than the Kia Rio, that you also wouldn't want and that people would not want to road trip with.

You're really, REALLY bad at making comparisons. The 2023 Kia Rio gets better gas mileage than my K5. You could certainly take a road trip with it just fine.

SimplyMe · Apr 26, 2024

probinson said:
Yes, it is perfect for city driving. Does it have a lot of space? Nope. Completely underwhelming.

I'm not trying to "equate" anything. You were the one that didn't like my real-world example and introduced a much more expensive long-range EV to the discussion.

Only time will tell.

Right now there is a lot of instability and uncertainty surrounding the EV market. Anything could happen.

Range anxiety is second only to price as to why people say they aren't buying EVs. You can keep pretending it's not an issue if you like, but you're only deluding yourself.

Not sure why you have to be dishonest. I've acknowledged multiple times throughout this thread that if all you're doing is driving locally, an EV is probably perfect for you. But an EV lacks the ability to completely take the place of ICE vehicle without significant limitations when you decide to actually go beyond the "average". Even EV advocates tacitly admit this when they say that an EV is good as a second car.

We've been over this, it seems nothing new is being stated now.

probinson said:
You're really, REALLY bad at making comparisons. The 2023 Kia Rio gets better gas mileage than my K5. You could certainly take a road trip with it just fine.

Wow, you really missed the point -- as that was the point. Yes, typically (as you've stated over and over) the smaller car gets better fuel economy. Yet, for some reason the Tesla, in this example -- as you've stated is a larger car -- gets better fuel economy (in the non-Performance models, the Performance model is a bit lower) than the smaller car.

My point was that you have this cramped car that can't go as far as the bigger car; but you are using this cramped car that is "completely underwhelming" in size as the example of how bad road tripping is in an EV. It wasn't a good example, using this car to try to prove that an EV can't be road tripped without taking hours more -- which just isn't true (unless you are using a "city car").

Diamond7 · Apr 27, 2024

SimplyMe said:
$3.25 for gasoline

I can remember gasoline selling for 32.9 cents and I think you could get it for 29.9. A $30,000 car today sold for $3,000 then.

SimplyMe · Apr 27, 2024

Diamond7 said:
I can remember gasoline selling for 32.9 cents and I think you could get it for 29.9. A $30,000 car today sold for $3,000 then.

If we are going to show our ages, I remember gasoline for somewhere around $0.30/gallon and could often be had for under $0.25/gallon. I can also remember nickel candy bars, and can remember them making the nickel bars a bit smaller when they introduced the larger dime candy bars. I'm a bit too young to recall the Coke machines that charged a nickel (I remember them almost all being a dime growing up), though every once in a blue moon I would run into one of the old nickel machines.

Diamond7 · Apr 27, 2024

SimplyMe said:
could often be had for under $0.25/gallon.

A quarter was a big deal for my dad's generation. He made 35 cents an hour and that was quite a bit because the going wage at the time was 25 cents an hour. They talk about shave and haircut two bits. I think it cost a little more to get your hair cut now.

Pommer · Apr 28, 2024

The tetraethyl lead fumes were delightful!

probinson · Apr 29, 2024

SimplyMe said:
It wasn't a good example, using this car to try to prove that an EV can't be road tripped without taking hours more -- which just isn't true (unless you are using a "city car").

I'm not sure why you're still pretending that taking a long road trip with an EV doesn't add hours in charging time. Obviously it depends on a myriad of factors, but taking a road-trip with an EV will ABSOLUTELY take considerably more time to charge than it would to fuel up an ICE vehicle.

hislegacy · Apr 29, 2024

Observation:

Wowsers! 37 days, 379 posts all off topic. It has to be a record.

But hey, it took the attention off Bidenomics

essentialsaltes · May 7, 2024

Social Security now expected to run short on funds in 2035, one year later than previously projected, Treasury says

The Social Security trustees credited the slightly improved outlook to more people contributing to the program amid a strong economy, low unemployment and higher job and wage growth.

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2024

NxNW said:
The supposedly-left-wing media seems to be doing a great job of discussing Biden's age, but not such a great job covering the stunning success of Bidenomics. Here are some numbers grudgingly reported by the right-wing media.

Inflation is receding and even reversing!

https://www.wsj.com/economy/goods-deflation-is-back-it-could-speed-inflations-return-to-2-c782d434?st=tyypnprf9k8adhu&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Prices for long-lasting items, known as durable goods, have fallen on a year-over-year basis for five straight months. In October, they were down 2.6% from their peak in September 2022, according to data released Thursday by the Commerce Department. That has helped bring down core inflation, which excludes the volatile food and energy categories, to 3.5% in October, from 5.5% in September 2022, as measured by the personal-consumption expenditures price index, the Fed’s preferred inflation gauge.

The economy is growing at the amazing pace of 5.2%!

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-jones-11-29-2023/card/economy-grew-faster-than-thought-in-q3-but-slowdown-expected-CivDqG8scwqDUnP0qZSh

The economy grew faster than previously estimated during the third quarter—at a blistering seasonally- and inflation-adjusted 5.2% annual rate—because there was more fixed investment as well as state and local government spending than initially thought, the Commerce Department said Wednesday.

Even with the UAW strike, job creation is solid. Fears of a recession are disappearing.

US labor market loosens as job gains slow, unemployment rate hits 3.9%

Nonfarm payrolls increase 150,000 in October

Auto strikes reduce payrolls by 33,000 jobs

Unemployment rate rises to 3.9% from 3.8%

Average hourly earnings gain 0.2%; up 4.1% year-on-year

The economy added 101,000 fewer jobs in August and September than previously estimated, also suggesting slowing labor market momentum. The report strengthened financial market expectations that the Federal Reserve is done raising interest rates for the current cycle, and improved the chances of the U.S. central bank engineering a "soft-landing" for the economy rather than plunging it into recession as some economists had feared.

Manufacturing employment dropped 35,000, with the UAW strike at Ford Motor (F.N), General Motors (GM.N) and Chrysler parent Stellantis (STLAM.MI) factories as well as at Mack Trucks plants subtracting 33,000 jobs.

Seriously, there isn't much to complain about where the economy is concerned. But you have to go looking for the information.

Yeah what do you expect after an economical crisis caused by the pandemic where prices skyrocketed and numerous companies went out of business because of it? Is inflation lower than before the pandemic? NO! Are gas prices lower than before the pandemic? NO, they’re not even lower than during the pandemic. Are there more jobs than before the pandemic? NO! This is like saying “Oh look! Biden made the sun come back” when really it was just an eclipse for 4 minutes.

hislegacy · May 7, 2024

President Biden scraps 'Bidenomics' after slogan falls flat

President Joe Biden has stopped using "Bidenomics" in public remarks after the term fell flat with voters and even fellow Democrats.

www.usatoday.com

When much of the country heard "Bidenomics," it reminded them of high inflation, not Biden's efforts to make the U.S. a microchip hotbed or the nation's economic rebound since the pandemic. Meanwhile, the outlook on the economy remains sour. In a New York Times/Sienna College poll this month, only 21% of voters described the economy as "excellent/good," compared to 79% who called it "fair/poor."

sshhhhh..... don't say Bidenomics anymore.

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2024

ThatRobGuy said:
I can appreciate Biden's sentiment that the best way to grow an economy is from the middle out. That happens to be my personal philosophy as well.

However, I think many of the "successes" of Bidenomics that get touted are artificially exaggerated due to the effects of coming out of the "pandemic phase" of Covid.

Especially with regards to unemployment numbers.

Pretty much anyone presiding over the time period in which everything went from "forced closure and job loss" to "reopening" is going to see positive upticks in certain key metrics, regardless of their policies.

Now, to be clear, I'm not definitively saying that none of his ideas had positive impacts... they very well could have, there were some things implemented that think should've been implemented 15 years ago. I'm saying that the transition from pandemic to post-pandemic isn't a proper testing ground for any economic approach because it's always going to artificially skew in the direction of favorable.

Example:
If I was elected mayor during a time when every restaurant was forced to close, establishments were forced to operate at limited capacity, and 40% of people were afraid to leave their house, and then you open the flood gates and let things go back to normal, you're going to see positive improvements in certain areas no matter what I do.

I could've had a policy as comically ridiculous as "The Rob Burgernomics plan" where my plan is to give everyone a free $5 gift card to Burger King to get a Whopper, if I did that during that same transition phase, certain numbers are going to indicate improvement in that time window...

That wouldn't mean "Burgernomics" is the key to success nor does it mean that it would have the same level of positive impacts under normal conditions.

While I side a "tad" more with Democrats on the economic front on some key issues, I've noted before that it likely wouldn't have mattered who was in office during that transition period.

If you go from "everything closed, you have to stay home" to "alright, everyone go back to work and eat in restaurants and go shopping again", certain metrics are going to improve by default and you'd actually have to try pretty hard to screw that up.

The range in that situation is going to be "Improve a lot <-> Improve a whole helluva lot"

It’s amazing how many people ignore this fact. I mean if we’re going to do a comparison in the economy it should be a comparison of what state the economy was in before the pandemic to now.

Pommer · May 7, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
It’s amazing how many people ignore this fact. I mean if we’re going to do a comparison in the economy it should be a comparison of what state the economy was in before the pandemic to now.

Don’t factor in the pandemic for 2017-2019, but compare those times to recovering from the pandemic?
Sure, if one looks at it that way, it all makes sense!

NxNW · May 8, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
Are there more jobs than before the pandemic?

Well, yeah.

QvQ · May 8, 2024

There is 20% inflation since Biden took office.
That means every $100 you had in 2020 is worth $80 in 2024.
There is a 20% loss of income.

Halbhh · May 8, 2024

While it's true that at the moment (for now) the economy is about as good under Biden as the best days it had under Trump -- except for the big negative that the big deficit spending both Trump and Biden did finally caused inflation after Trump got out of town and so Trump didn't get his share of blame.... Biden getting most of the blame for that, even though Trump was just as responsible by cutting taxes and running up big deficits even when the economy was good....

So, people can be fooled into thinking Trump did better, even though they are about the same....

You could say the 2 are about the same in terms of that side of things: low unemployment, generally good economy, and both about equally responsible for the 20-25% inflation outcome even while its now settling down back to a more typical level today finally --

Inflation is getting back close to average:

"What was the inflation rate in 1970 to present?
The dollar had an average inflation rate of 3.88% per year between 1970 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 680.98%. "

Still, there is a more telling difference between Biden and Trump for average people: Trump intentionally stirs up group vs group conflicts and also intentionally slanders about various people and also sets a terrible example for younger people -- teenagers -- about how to act when you grow up....

So, we'd be far better off with Biden. Because if you raise a younger generation where many 10, 12 yr olds imagine that Trump is the model for how to act, you are storing up new disasters for your nation later in time....

hislegacy · May 9, 2024

Another great report on the effects of Bidenomics -

MSN

Weekly jobless claims rise to highest level since August

Good job Joe

The Triumph of Bidenomics!

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