Lesbian UMC bishop laments denomination’s ban on ‘queer clergy’

FireDragon76 said:

No. It means Jesus was a human being, which is absolutely in keeping with traditional Christian orthodoxy. Humans by their very nature are raised with attitudes and norms of their culture. Even just talking to a Syro-Phoenecian woman would have been an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do. It would have obvious status imbalances, and this is what Jesus is acknowledging. But he lets the woman win the argument, because of her faith. Given the context, Jesus doesn't lose honor in the exchange, but elevates the Syro-Phoenician woman's status.

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That doesn't make any sense. Yes Jesus was human but we are told he did not sin. So Jesus defied his nature and overcame anything that was sinful in attitude or a norm. Either bigotry is a sin or it's not.

As you pointed out the fact that Jesus talked to her showed he did not follow the bigoted attitudes or norms if the day. This fits Christ to a tee. He liked a life of rejection of any and all sinful behaviors, norms or attitudes and showed us a better way.

FireDragon76 said:

Nevertheless, I think the worse sin is to read this passage and just assume treating people like dogs is the Christ-like thing to do. Some Evangelicals do that, they use this passage to justify a cruel and abusive theology.

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Please explain.

rjs330 said:

Please explain.

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Some people take stories like this one (the Syrophoenician woman), or Jesus chasing the moneylenders out of the temple, and use it to justify actual violence or bigotry.

FireDragon76 said:

Some people take stories like this one (the Syrophoenician woman), or Jesus chasing the moneylenders out of the temple, and use it to justify actual violence or bigotry.

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That doesnt explain any thing about an abusive theology. Give us an example of this cruel and abusive theology you are talking about that's going on.

RileyG said:

I actually read her book. To sum it up it was all about "What about me?" "What about my feelings?"

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Individualism summed up in a sentence (or more accurately, a book). Glad I stay away from that stuff. The Bible warns us against being individualistic.

Philippians 2:3: "Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves."

AlexB23 said:

Individualism summed up in a sentence (or more accurately, a book). Glad I stay away from that stuff. The Bible warns us against being individualistic.

Philippians 2:3: "Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves."

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I actually read a lot of those who disagree with me just to understand their POV. LGBT- more or less- is about "what about my feelings?" "what about me, me, me" and has no logical arguments. Many of the pro-LGBT side lack critical thinking skills.

RileyG said:

I actually read a lot of those who disagree with me just to understand their POV. LGBT- more or less- is about "what about my feelings?" "what about me, me, me" and has no logical arguments. Many of the pro-LGBT side lack critical thinking skills.

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Agreed. As a Christian bi guy, I will respect God's teachings, and will remain celibate, unless with a wife, especially after learning how diseases such as Mpox in 2022 spread rapidly (from gay folks, and also straight folks who slept with > 1 partner).

The LGBT stuff, especially the T is a byproduct of rampant individualism in the recent times.

By the way, what I mean when saying "recent times" could be interpreted in two ways:

1. Recent times = the past 5-10 years
2. The End Times as described in Revelation (either Nero from ~60 AD, or some time in the future).

dzheremi said:

Everybody's focusing on her "queerness" or whatever (including her, so it's understandable), but with that bit about how she's claimed that Jesus was a bigot and how she was worried about making Him into an "idol", she could be as a straight and/or celibate as an arrow and I still wouldn't want her within a hundred yards of any church that actually cares about the fate of people's eternal souls. What horrible spiritual poison. Lord have mercy. The foxes are guarding the hen house.

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Indeed, she is clearly an actual heretic, whose beliefs are in fact Arian. It is unfortunate, but there are non-Nicene and anti-Nicene bishops in the UMC. In this respect the UMC has for many years been in a more problematic state than the Episcopal Church.

rjs330 said:

That doesn't make any sense. Yes Jesus was human but we are told he did not sin. So Jesus defied his nature and overcame anything that was sinful in attitude or a norm. Either bigotry is a sin or it's not.

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And Jesus Christ is also fully God. From the time of His conception in the womb of our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ has been fully God and fully Man, His divinity and humanity united without change, confusion, separation or division.

God is furthermore by definition incapable of sin, and thus it is blasphemous to say Christ sinned, for it violates the doctrine of the Incarnation. The principle of Communicatio Idiomatum is also violated by what this woman said.

hedrick said:

The context was the Canaanite woman, who Jesus originally turned down. A number of interpreters say that her faith caused Jesus to reject the traditional Jewish objection to Canaanites. Hence she doesn't say Jesus was a bigot, but that Jesus gave up bigotry.

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One cannot give up bigotry without being a bigot.

dzheremi said:

she was worried about making Him into an "idol", she could be as a straight and/or celibate as an arrow and I still wouldn't want her within a hundred yards of any church that actually cares about the fate of people's eternal souls.

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The idea that Jesus Christ could be made into an “idol” is the most offensive and heretical statement she made. It indicates that she does not believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, but rather rejects the Nicene Creed. God cannot be an idol; the worship of God cannot be idolatry.

Indeed the reason why the Eastern Orthodox overcame the takeover of the church of Constantinople, by iconoclasts waters, due to the fact that, since God became incarnate as a man, it became possible to depict God without engaging in idolatry, since Scott became visible in the person of Jesus Christ.

I would note that the Oriental Orthodox are particularly blessed in that they are the one denomination which always avoided iconoclasm. The limit to which Iconoclasm occurred in Oriental Orthodoxy was a very small outbreak in Eastern Armenia which the bishops quickly corrected. This is one of the many reasons why I reject the arguments of some Eastern Orthodox such as Nicholas Marinides, Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus and the schismatic Old Calendarists, that the Oriental Orthodox are not fully Orthodox.

FireDragon76 said:

Some people take stories like this one (the Syrophoenician woman), or Jesus chasing the moneylenders out of the temple, and use it to justify actual violence or bigotry.

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That fact, while unfortunate, does not justify the actually heretical statement made by this bishop, who was elected in violation of the rules of the UMC.

That, by the way, is the worst aspect of all of this, in that the left wing element in the UMC cheated to obtain the result of legitimizing sexual immorality within their denomination, by allowing clergy to be in unmarried sexual relationships, that is to say, to fornicate, which is uncontroversially sexually immoral. I am not even talking about the issue of homosexuality here, to be clear, since I would assume and hope that regardless of how Christians feel about homosexuality, they should agree the teaching of Scripture on fornication is that it is grossly immoral.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I lament Lesbian and Queer clergy in what were in past times somewhat decent churches. All I can say is, I hope the churches these lesbian priestessss belong to die off before they can taint other churches.

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The UMC was actually the last mainline denomination in the US that had not at least officially capitulated on this issue. The ordination of this woman as a bishop was technically illicit.

But they went beyond even that, and decided to permit clergy to engage in fornication, which is absolutely shocking.

RileyG said:

I actually read her book. To sum it up it was all about "What about me?" "What about my feelings?"

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Did you get a sense as to her views on Christology from it?

The Liturgist said:

The UMC was actually the last mainline denomination in the US that had not at least officially capitulated on this issue. The ordination of this woman as a bishop was technically illicit.

But they went beyond even that, and decided to permit clergy to engage in fornication, which is absolutely shocking.

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They were just being honest about something that has happened throughout the centuries. Read any medieval history?

RileyG said:

I don't think Methodist use the term priest. I think the term Elder or Pastor is more appropriate. I am not sure about their theology, but many Methodist Churches in my area affirm LGBT behavior.

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The word priest is an Anglicization of the Greek word Presbyter meaning Elder. John Wesley, who was an Anglican priest and who was also secretly (and technically, uncanonically) ordained a bishop by the Greek Orthodox bishop Erasmus of Arcadia, when editing the Book of Common Prayer for use by the Methodists in North America, decided that the words bishop and priest, which are Anglicizations of words that mean Superintendent* and Elder, would simply become Superintendent and Elder.

*Episkopos could also be said to mean “Overseer”, but the words Overseer and Superintendent are synonymous.

The Liturgist said:

The word priest is an Anglicization of the Greek word Presbyter meaning Elder. John Wesley, who was an Anglican priest and who was also secretly (and technically, uncanonically) ordained a bishop by the Greek Orthodox bishop Erasmus of Arcadia, when editing the Book of Common Prayer for use by the Methodists in North America, decided that the words bishop and priest, which are Anglicizations of words that mean Superintendent* and Elder, would simply become Superintendent and Elder.

*Episkopos could also be said to mean “Overseer”, but the words Overseer and Superintendent are synonymous.

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I wasn’t aware he was ordained by a Greek Orthodox bishop- thanks for sharing.

The Liturgist said:

Did you get a sense as to her views on Christology from it?

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Essentially she felt called to ministry because it felt good and later found out she was a lesbian. She probably thinks God accepts her lesbianism because, as LGBT activists like to say, “love is love.”

FireDragon76 said:

They were just being honest about something that has happened throughout the centuries. Read any medieval history?

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That is an absurd argument, frankly. Yes, it is true that there have always been hypocritical presbyters who have engaged in fornication, and it is also the case that this has always been grounds for deposing presbyters who engage in such conduct. If an Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox presbyter engages in adultery or fornication, they are gone, and I would assume the rule is the same in the LCMS/LCC (my dear friend @MarkRohfrietsch should be able to confirm that for us), and in Continuing Anglicanism (my pious friend and colleague @Shane R would know about that). And also, my learned Baptist friend @Der Alte might be able to confirm whether or not a typical SBC congregation would sack a minister who engaged in fornication. I know it has happened.

And of course also it is the case that homosexuality is clearly prohibited both by scripture and by the canons of the early church, for example, Canon LXII of St. Basil the Great. His brother St. Gregory of Nyssa also wrote a canon against it, Canon IV, which also prohibits and canonizes fornication and adultery. For this reason I have always been amused by the irony in St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco selecting him as their patron saint; obviously they did it based on the incorrect belief held by many that St. Gregory was a universalist, which is not actually the case; rather he expressed a belief in eschatological apokatastasis, but this view is more in line with the view once taught by the Church of the East, that Hell is temporary and people will be punished in Hell according to the magnitude of their sins (see the Book of the Bee by Mar Solomon the Bishop of Basra).