the Antichrist

3 Resurrections said:

Dougg, with this above, it shows you are ducking and dodging the point I was emphasizing. Please stay focused.

Paul in 2 Thess. 2 was speaking of a THEN PRESENT Man of Lawlessness and his restrainer. "He who NOW restrains..." was a PRESENT TENSE reality in Paul's days when the restrainer and the Antichrist / Man of Lawlessness were both then in existence at the time.

You are denying this very clear language of Paul's describing a first-century reality that the Thessalonians knew about because Paul had told them about it in person when he was among them.

Does the word "NOW" mean absolutely nothing to you?

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Who was the then present Man of Lawlessnes?

One God and Father of All said:

Who was the then present Man of Lawlessnes?

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The term "lawlessness" in this case was referring to the Zealot cause which was then on the rise. When Paul wrote that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work...", he meant that the Zealot insurrectionists in Israel were already operating. The "falling away" coming first meant that the full-fledged "apostasia" civil rebellion led by the Zealots against Rome would soon arise in AD 66, along with the revelation of the "Man of Lawlessness". This man was one of many first-century Zealot leaders claiming to be the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesied Messiah the Prince.

But out of all those many false christs, there was a single man who was the first to appear in the temple in AD 66, dressed in Herod's royal robes of state which he had stolen from Masada, exalting himself as the King of the Jews in the very temple itself. His name was Menahem, son or grandson of Judas the Galilean in Acts 5:37. Menahem was only following in the footsteps of his ancestor's Zealot insurrectionist activity, which earned him the title "Son of destruction" in 2 Thess. 2:3. Like all his family members before him, Menahem also was destroyed by his Zealot ambitions.

When Isaiah 53:12 scriptures predicted that Christ would be "numbered with the lawless" in his death, this was a prediction that Christ would be crucified between two Zealots; thieves who had committed insurrection against Rome along with Barabbas (Mark 15:7 & 27). "Lawlessness" was Zealotry being practiced in Israel, leading up to the rebellion against Rome. Their goal was to become a military-type Messiah as leader of their nation who would cast off their Roman overlords.

Douggg said:

2Thessalonians2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul was referring back to 1Thessalonians5. which in verse 9-11, the rapture would take place before the day of the Lord, the day of Christ, begins.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that they now know that it is the rapture must happen first - before the man of sin is revealed by the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to achieved God-hood.

So since the rapture did not happen back then, nor any time since, the man of sin did not exist in their day... and his being revealed is still future to us. But not the distant future.

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You are still clearly denying the very plain use of the word "NOW" in Paul's writing. This verse about the Man of Lawlessness and his restrainer who were then in existence is a proof text. What you are trying to do is to say, "Well, because I personally don't think such-and-such has happened, then Paul couldn't have really meant what he said." This puts your own interpretation of things in the driver's seat instead of Paul.

I repeat the question: since when did the word "NOW" not mean "NOW"? You are not at liberty to re-define the English language.

Douggg said:

Copy and paste the specific verse having the particular "now" that your referring to.

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Paul was saying that there was NOW a “he” who was restraining the man of sin to be revealed. Until this “he” be taken out of the way, the man of sin would not be revealed.

Douggg said:

@3 Resurrections

Go back to 1Thessalonians5, concerning the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night. What event in that chapter says what triggers the day of the Lord ? .... It is not in that chapter.

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By reading the text one might think that the man of sin was already existing but was being restrained by “he”(?).

The way I understand it, is that the man of sin did not yet exist, but only the “he” who restrains him from being revealed.

Someone would have to be moved out of the way before the man of sin could be revealed. The language does not require the man of sin to have already be existing. Only the mystery of lawlessness was existing, and the one who restrains the man of sin to then appear.

One God and Father of All said:

Paul was saying that there was NOW a “he” who was restraining the man of sin to be revealed. Until this “he” be taken out of the way, the man of sin would not be revealed.

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There would be no point in saying that the restrainer was "NOW" restraining the Man of Lawlessness if there was nothing there to be restrained. This requires that the Man of Lawlessness also had to be in existence at the same time as the restrainer.

Back in the first-century days, the Zealot insurrectionists were being held in check by the high priesthood who had been working in conjunction and cooperation with the Romans in order to "preserve their place and their nation" (as Caiphas once said). The "HE" in 2 Thess. 2:7 who was restraining the Man of Lawlessness was the high priest Ananias. The "WHAT" that was doing the restraining (2 Thess. 2:6) was the institution of the high priesthood system of which Ananias was a part.

At the very beginning of the AD 66 rebellion (the "apostasia"), there were a number of former high priests (including Ananias) who were holding the radical Zealot leaders in check in Jerusalem. But once Menahem murdered the high priest Ananias, his restrainer, Menahem the Zealot leader became what Josephus called "an insupportable tyrant" in Jerusalem. It was then that Menahem "exalted himself" by presenting himself as the King of the Jews in the temple itself.

Douggg said:

In verse 6.... Paul says to them, And now (since he just explained it to them) ye know what witholdeth (the what being the rapture must happen first) that he (the man of sin) be revealed (as the man of sin) in his time.

The "now" in that verse does not have anything to do with meaning "right now" , as 3 Resurrections is thinking. The now in that verse means "now you understand".

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That still means "right now at the present time" . "NOW" means just that. Paul had told the Thessalonians of these things before in person, and he was reminding them of that fact. They "NOW" knew then at that present time what Paul was talking about. "He who NOW restrains" at that present time Paul was writing is a proof text regarding the first-century existence of both of these individuals.

3 Resurrections said:

There would be no point in saying that the restrainer was "NOW" restraining the Man of Lawlessness if there was nothing there to be restrained. This requires that the Man of Lawlessness also had to be in existence at the same time as the restrainer.

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All Paul is saying is that someone must be taken out of the way for the man of sin be revealed.
One thing must happen in order for another thing to happen. If the one thing doesn’t happen, then the other won’t.
Paul doesn’t say the man of sin was then existing. Only that the mystery of iniquity and someone who restrains the appearing of the man of sin.

Douggg said:

I basically agree. But instead of "someone who restrains the appearing of the man of sin".... it is what restrains the revealing of the man of sin.

The what is that the rapture must happen before - the revealing of the man of sin.

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I understand he says “what restrains”. But he then refers to the “what” as a “he”.

which is to be understood that the what is a he.

Douggg said:

little horn > becomes the prince who shall come > becomes the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast-king. Who will be cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's Second Coming.

The false prophet (who is not the Antichrist) will initially be perceived to be Elijah the prophet by the Jews. He is the one who will anoint the prince who shall come as the King of Israel.

The Antichrist, about three years into the 7 years, reveals himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. He will be killed for the act of stopping the daily sacrifice, then sitting in the temple, claiming to be God.

Being killed, he is the mortally wounded head on the beast coming out of the sea. Brought back to life he becomes the beast-king, the eighth king of Revelation 17:11. Having first come on the scene as the little horn, the seventh king.

The false prophet is not a king but a religious figure, associated with worship.

The Antichrist, who later becomes the beast-king, is a king.

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Beast from the earth is the antichrist also known as the false prophet. Who brings worship to the beast from the sea who is the man of sin also known as the king of the north.

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.



This is Paul's man of sin
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Here he is in Revelation
And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

Here he is in Daniel
“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.

One God and Father of All said:

I understand he says “what restrains”. But he then refers to the “what” as a “he”.

which is to be understood that the what is a he.

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Agreed. They are the same thing. The "HE that restrains" was also the "WHAT" that was restraining the Man of Lawlessness from being revealed openly. The "HE" was a particular high priest. The "WHAT" was the high priesthood institution in general.

Paul used deliberately veiled language to the Thessalonians here, because he did not want to be accused of "speaking evil of a ruler of thy people", as he mentioned when he was on trial before Ananias in Acts 23:5. This was the same high priest Ananias who was the restraining influence on the Zealot leaders in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the war in AD 66. The Zealot leader Menahem murdered Ananias, who had been restraining Menahem from declaring himself King of the Jews in Jerusalem until then. That was when the restrainer was "taken out of the way".

Paul's prediction to Ananias came true at that point in AD 66. "God is ABOUT TO smite thee, thou whited wall", he said to Ananias when Paul was on trial before the Sanhedrin in AD 60.

Douggg said:

Copy and paste the whole verse and inform us what translation. I am quoting from the kjv.

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Why? Everyone posting above has already done so. It doesn't matter which translation you use. They all use the word "NOW" for the time when the Antichrist / Man of Lawlessness was being restrained in Paul's days.

3 Resurrections said:

There would be no point in saying that the restrainer was "NOW" restraining the Man of Lawlessness if there was nothing there to be restrained. This requires that the Man of Lawlessness also had to be in existence at the same time as the restrainer.

Back in the first-century days, the Zealot insurrectionists were being held in check by the high priesthood who had been working in conjunction and cooperation with the Romans in order to "preserve their place and their nation" (as Caiphas once said). The "HE" in 2 Thess. 2:7 who was restraining the Man of Lawlessness was the high priest Ananias. The "WHAT" that was doing the restraining (2 Thess. 2:6) was the institution of the high priesthood system of which Ananias was a part.

At the very beginning of the AD 66 rebellion (the "apostasia"), there were a number of former high priests (including Ananias) who were holding the radical Zealot leaders in check in Jerusalem. But once Menahem murdered the high priest Ananias, his restrainer, Menahem the Zealot leader became what Josephus called "an insupportable tyrant" in Jerusalem. It was then that Menahem "exalted himself" by presenting himself as the King of the Jews in the temple itself.


That still means "right now at the present time" . "NOW" means just that. Paul had told the Thessalonians of these things before in person, and he was reminding them of that fact. They "NOW" knew then at that present time what Paul was talking about. "He who NOW restrains" at that present time Paul was writing is a proof text regarding the first-century existence of both of these individuals.

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“The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come”

When the southern tribe of Judah returned to their land, after their captivity in Babylon, they remained there until Christ had come.
They continued to have a ruler or judge over them as the people of Judah.
After Jesus had come, the lawgiver, judge or ruler was taken out of the midst of the land, the temple was destroyed and the people dispersed among the nations

It had to happen that Judah be taken out of the way so that Jesus, whose right it is, to be ruler, lawgiver and judge to return and claim what is rightfully his.

One God and Father of All said:

It had to happen that Judah be taken out of the way so that Jesus, whose right it is, to be ruler, lawgiver and judge to return and claim what is rightfully his.

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The kingdom was given to Christ on His resurrection-day ascension to the Father. He became the Great High Priest King of kings after the superior order of Melchizedek on that morning. This is why Christ could say to the disciples in Matthew 28:18, (even before He had ascended finally in Acts 1), "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..." Christ did not have to wait for His return to be given that kingdom.

Peter's speech to the crown on Pentecost agreed with Christ Jesus having already been enthroned at the right hand of God, being made both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:29-36).

Douggg said:

Why are you being so evasive ?

The word "now" appears in verse 1, verse 6, verse 7 verse 16. Others cannot read you mind which particular verse you are referring to, while reading your comments.

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Douggg, I am not being evasive, I am posting in the middle of a heavy work schedule deadline, so I am presuming that no one needs yet another listing of this verse. But in case there is one so unfortunate as not to have read through the entire post yet...

2 Thessalonians 2: 6 and 7, "And NOW ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who NOW letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." (KJV)

And in case someone is stumped by the antique word "let", here it is in the ESV: "And you know what is restraining him NOW so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who NOW restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."

Notice in this ESV translation, that the"HIM" that was being restrained is the very same as the "IT" which is being restrained. This "IT" was Zealotry that was being held in check by the high priesthood, as well as being "HE", the specific Zealot leader named Menahem.

Likewise, the "WHAT" that was doing the restraining (the high priesthood institution) is also the same as the "HE" that is doing the restraining (one particular high priest named Ananias).

Paul was going to great efforts to avoid naming the high priesthood or its members in this Thessalonians letter, since the high priesthood utterly hated Paul and his ministry. The high priests regarded Paul as a traitor who had switched to the enemy's side. If this Thessalonians letter had fallen into the wrong hands, Paul could have created more persecution for his fellow believers if he had been specific in naming this restrainer. God was going to get rid of the high priesthood system soon enough.