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It apparently is hard to figure out without the Holy Spirit conforming the human mind to the mind of Christ. Or perhaps it's hard to figure out if Satan has made it too lucrative.

It has been Christianity and Christianity alone among religions to create an anti-slavery doctrine...and even secular philosophers of John Locke's era and afterward cannot pretend they were not "tainted" by a Christian worldview.

However, I still argue that the anti-slavery doctrine discoverable in scripture is a For Christians by Christians doctrine, a law of the Kingdom of Heaven, and it is clear that it was not part of the gospel Paul directed at non-believers. At no point, for instance, did Paul mention to Felix or Festus, "and, btw, slavery is bad." That is something one learned after becoming a servant of Christ.


They had access to both scripture and John Locke, which the still-slave-trading Africans did not have. The man who was perhaps the first bona fide African-American national leader, Richard Allen, was explicitly said to have learned through scripture that slavery was bad. Allen then proceeded to preach the gospel to his master, and his master--converted--permitted Allen freedom.

Gospel first--the core mission of the Church--and then make the Church the model of a Heavenly society.

I can agree to some extent with your interpretation, but I don't think the Gospel is a separate element from the active efforts we are to make in being beneficent as best we each can within our respective Christian lives. I don't think that when Paul penned one of our earliest Scriptures, he meant for it to be applied 'between' Christians only. See Galatians 5:6; Galatians 6:10

Even in the case of Jesus, when He said He fulfilled what the prophet Isaiah wrote, it doesn't sound like its semantic force and logistics were to only or ultimately end within His Church. See Luke 4:17-19. Shame on folks for insisting that Jesus ONLY and ever meant to convey a solely "spiritual" meaning, applying only to human sin and freedom toward eternal life. No, I think He meant for it to eventually sink in much more deeply than that into the World in due time. Can you imagine that Jesus' fulfillment only meant to convey a spiritualized application, such that when He said the blind would see, He was only referring to people coming to 'understand' the Gospel but not to be actually healed of blindness ... ... ... ? No, I think He meant for various effects to bear themselves out in due time. Some effects were done then, like healing of the blind or release from sin or even demons; other effects would come upon the world in greater measure in the outworking of History.
 
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RDKirk

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Sorry, I’m not quite understanding how Paul invalidated it. I only see him talking about fair treatment of slaves and fair treatment from their masters as in Ephesians 6:9.
Something important to note is that it was not (and is not) the mission of the Church to "fix" the Roman empire. Scripture is not about "fixing" the world, it is about how the people of God are to live while in the world. If you read 1 Peter, you see that the Body of Christ operates as a "diplomatic mission" to the nations of the world, representing the Kingdom of Heaven.


And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. -- Ephesians 6

To a Christian who had slaves this verse is a jaw dropper. Look carefully at it, because this verse changes everything.

If the slave owner considered the slave his personal property, this verse creates a different relationship. Both persons are actually the slaves of the Lord. That makes the "slave" no longer the property of the "master," but his responsibility under the one who is the Master of both of them (see the Unwise Steward in Luke 12 and the Unforgiving Steward in Matthew 18)--for the Master sees no difference between them--they are both His property, both bought for a price.

The "slavery" permitted within the culture of believers, both OT and NT, was debt bondage, not chattel slavery. God did not create Jews to be chattel to other Jews, but He did permit Jews to become indebted to other Jews. Debt bondage is the same thing any of us might enter as an "unsecured loan." Like debt bondage in ancient times, that unsecured loan debt can be bought and sold by its owners.

However, debt bondage in the Mosaic Law had distinct and severe limits to prevent a "slave class" from ever occurring among Jews. As well, even while in debt bondage, the debtor could not be treated as chattel, but still was recognized as a Jew and chosen of God.

This continued in the New Testament. It was not the mission of the Body of Christ to "fix" the Roman Empire. The Body of Christ is a diplomatic mission to the nations of this world, and as any diplomatic mission, it must obey the laws of the host nation outside its gates. However, within the gates of the diplomatic mission, the laws of the home nation prevail.

That is how it is with the Body of Christ. Outside the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the host nation laws prevail. Within the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven prevail (this is referenced in practical detail in 1 Corinthians 5).

Before we get to the letter to Philemon, there are some other points to note. Slavery in the Roman empire occurred in two ways:

1. As a person kidnapped or taken as a war prisoner into slavery, becoming a chattel slave.
2. A freeborn man entering debt bondage or becoming a slave as a penalty for a crime.

Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. -- 1 Corinthians 7

Paul speaks of slavery as though it had an optional component. That was possible for debt bondage. It was not possible for chattel slavery. Paul could say, "Don't go into debt." Paul could not say, "Don't be kidnapped." So Paul was talking about debt bondage.

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine -- 1 Timothy 1

Thus, the slave trade of kidnapping is made illegal within the Body of Christ, but going into debt is permitted.
Now, to Paul's letter to Philemon. The first question to ask: What is the purpose of this letter? Latter apologists for slavery and those who wish to accuse Christianity of condoning slavery both claim the letter is nothing more than a plea from Paul for Philemon merely to be nice to Onesimus.

One would have to explain, though, why a mere "be nice" letter would have been cherished, preserved, copied, and shared among the early Christians and eventually considered of such significant doctrinal importance to have been included as part of the Canon.

The tone and deep emotion of the letter also belies the claim that its purpose is so shallow. If the point were merely "be nice," it's more likely Paul would have included it as a closing point to a congregational letter, such as he did to Euodia and Syntyche at the end of the letter to the Philippians.

At the same time Paul wrote this personal letter to Philemon, he also wrote the congregational letter to Philemon's congregation, the church at Colossae. It was probably Onesimus who carried both letters. If the letter to Philemon was to be merely a plea to "be nice," Paul could have added it to the end of the letter to the Colossians the same way he pleaded for Euodia and Syntyche to "be nice" at the end of the letter to the Philippians.

No, this letter clearly has a singular and very important message personally to Philemon and doctrinally to the Body of Christ. It's purpose was to secure the freedom of Onesimus, and as preserved by the early Christians for doctrine, it was recognized as directive to the entire early church.

Indeed, history indicates that slavery among Christians had died out until Christianity became the national religion of the Empire...which depended economically on slavery. At that point, the empire was able to use the Church to validate all of its actions. That's the reason the Church should remain unentangled with government: So that the Church need never countersign the actions of earthly governments.

On to Philemon:

Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love.

Translation: I have a big stick, but I'm going to speak softly.

It is as none other than Paul, an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus

Translation: You know me--I am your elder and I suffer even now for the Body in which you are a member.

that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains....I am sending him who is my very heart back to you.

Translation: I consider Onesimus my own son--which is about the most important familial relationship possible in this society. Men value their sons more than they value their wives. Just want you to know how serious this is to me.

I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary.

Translation: But there is a legal matter I need you to attend to.

Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

Translation: What part of "no longer as a slave" is hard to understand? "No longer as a slave" does not mean "be nice to him as a slave." "No longer as a slave" actually means "no longer as a slave."

If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

Translation: He was a slave as a penalty for a crime he committed against you or a debt he owed you (which is the only bondage we allow among Christians). Put that debt on my tab. That makes him free.

I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back, not to mention that you owe me your very self.

Translation: Oh, and by the way, I won't mention that you owe me a whole lot more. Well, maybe I did mention it...so that cancels whatever Onesimus owed...and you're still in debt to me.

Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

Translation: Capish? Good. I expect you to do it.

And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.

Translation: I'm going to drop by soon to make sure you have done what I--ahem--"asked" you to do.
 
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RDKirk

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I can agree to some extent with you interpretation, but I don't think the Gospel is a separate element from the active efforts we are to make in being beneficent as best we each can within our respective Christian lives. I don't think that when Paul penned one of our earliest Scriptures, he meant for it to be applied 'between' Christians only. See Galatians 5:6; Galatians 6:10

Did you see that clause "...especially unto them who are of the household of faith." That means the household of faith takes priority. We haven't yet even taken care of all those who are of the household of faith.

Even in the case of Jesus, when He said He fulfilled what the prophet Isaiah wrote, it doesn't sound like its semantic force and logistics were to only or ultimately end within His Church. See Luke 4:17-19. Shame on folks for insisting that Jesus ONLY and ever meant to convey a solely "spiritual" meaning, applying only to human sin and freedom toward eternal life. No, I think He meant for it to eventually sink in much more deeply than that into the World in due time. Can you imagine that Jesus' fulfillment only meant to convey a spiritualized application, such that when He said the blind would see, He was only referring to people coming to 'understand' the Gospel but not to be actually healed of blindness ... ... ... ? No, I think He meant for various effects to bear themselves out in due time. Some effects were done then, like healing of the blind or release from sin or even demons; other effects would come upon the world in greater measure in the outworking of History.
No, I don't see that anywhere. Jesus did not come to fix the kingdoms of men, Jesus came to bring the world into His kingdom.
 
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saved24

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I saw the commercial, and it might make someone curious about Christianity, but still it was not presenting Jesus in a true light. Jesus loves us, but wants to save us from our sins, He does not want to leave us where we are.
Here is what Jamie Bambrick thinks they should have done:
 
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Rose_bud

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I assume many of you saw that "He Gets Us" Super Bowl commercial

or maybe some of you have experience with the organization

seem like it was very controversial--I am curious to hear your thoughts on it
Hi there:wave:

I've been reading the posts on the thread and was interested to see what the fuss was about the commercial, and since you asked for thoughts on it, this is mine. Albeit not viewed through an American political lens, but just as an ad.

For me it was more of the content directed at what would Jesus do in our context with all these people that do not conform to our religious ideals, how would He respond to them? I loved the rebuttal video as well, the after we meet Jesus this is the result....I think it would be pretty interesting to see what the ad would look like, taking into consideration how Jesus responded to the religious legalist?? "you brood of vipers, white washed tombs" an ad with this as graphics... some food for thought?

Some times the greatest apologetic is friendship, love and respect.

Also the creators have this disclaimer on their site

"We will make mistakes. Like anyone with a public message or who sets out to share an idea, we won’t always get it right. Expect us to be human".
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Did you see that clause "...especially unto them who are of the household of faith." That means the household of faith takes priority. We haven't yet even taken care of all those who are of the household of faith.
Yes, I saw that adverb very clearly ... μάλιστα Strong's Greek: 3122. μάλιστα (malista) -- most

... thank you for amplifying what I was already quoting.

It should now be even more clear to everyone that "priority of one group" doesn't imply "preclusion of one group due to the importance of another." It's a BOTH/AND directive, not one that's EITHER/OR.


No, I don't see that anywhere. Jesus did not come to fix the kingdoms of men, Jesus came to bring the world into His kingdom.

I never said anything about Jesus coming to "fix" the kingdoms of men. No, all I've insisted on is that Christian beneficence is supposed to extend into the World and beyond just The Church alone.

Still, I think that you and I may have different views on Eschatology, and that difference may, despite some similarities in our thinking, color our respective views on what Jesus has intended for the world.

And that's ok since neither of us knows fully how it's supposed to work itself out.
 
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FameBright

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Something important to note is that it was not (and is not) the mission of the Church to "fix" the Roman empire. Scripture is not about "fixing" the world, it is about how the people of God are to live while in the world. If you read 1 Peter, you see that the Body of Christ operates as a "diplomatic mission" to the nations of the world, representing the Kingdom of Heaven.


And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. -- Ephesians 6

To a Christian who had slaves this verse is a jaw dropper. Look carefully at it, because this verse changes everything.

If the slave owner considered the slave his personal property, this verse creates a different relationship. Both persons are actually the slaves of the Lord. That makes the "slave" no longer the property of the "master," but his responsibility under the one who is the Master of both of them (see the Unwise Steward in Luke 12 and the Unforgiving Steward in Matthew 18)--for the Master sees no difference between them--they are both His property, both bought for a price.

The "slavery" permitted within the culture of believers, both OT and NT, was debt bondage, not chattel slavery. God did not create Jews to be chattel to other Jews, but He did permit Jews to become indebted to other Jews. Debt bondage is the same thing any of us might enter as an "unsecured loan." Like debt bondage in ancient times, that unsecured loan debt can be bought and sold by its owners.

However, debt bondage in the Mosaic Law had distinct and severe limits to prevent a "slave class" from ever occurring among Jews. As well, even while in debt bondage, the debtor could not be treated as chattel, but still was recognized as a Jew and chosen of God.

This continued in the New Testament. It was not the mission of the Body of Christ to "fix" the Roman Empire. The Body of Christ is a diplomatic mission to the nations of this world, and as any diplomatic mission, it must obey the laws of the host nation outside its gates. However, within the gates of the diplomatic mission, the laws of the home nation prevail.

That is how it is with the Body of Christ. Outside the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the host nation laws prevail. Within the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven prevail (this is referenced in practical detail in 1 Corinthians 5).

Before we get to the letter to Philemon, there are some other points to note. Slavery in the Roman empire occurred in two ways:

1. As a person kidnapped or taken as a war prisoner into slavery, becoming a chattel slave.
2. A freeborn man entering debt bondage or becoming a slave as a penalty for a crime.

Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. -- 1 Corinthians 7

Paul speaks of slavery as though it had an optional component. That was possible for debt bondage. It was not possible for chattel slavery. Paul could say, "Don't go into debt." Paul could not say, "Don't be kidnapped." So Paul was talking about debt bondage.

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine -- 1 Timothy 1

Thus, the slave trade of kidnapping is made illegal within the Body of Christ, but going into debt is permitted.
Now, to Paul's letter to Philemon. The first question to ask: What is the purpose of this letter? Latter apologists for slavery and those who wish to accuse Christianity of condoning slavery both claim the letter is nothing more than a plea from Paul for Philemon merely to be nice to Onesimus.

One would have to explain, though, why a mere "be nice" letter would have been cherished, preserved, copied, and shared among the early Christians and eventually considered of such significant doctrinal importance to have been included as part of the Canon.

The tone and deep emotion of the letter also belies the claim that its purpose is so shallow. If the point were merely "be nice," it's more likely Paul would have included it as a closing point to a congregational letter, such as he did to Euodia and Syntyche at the end of the letter to the Philippians.

At the same time Paul wrote this personal letter to Philemon, he also wrote the congregational letter to Philemon's congregation, the church at Colossae. It was probably Onesimus who carried both letters. If the letter to Philemon was to be merely a plea to "be nice," Paul could have added it to the end of the letter to the Colossians the same way he pleaded for Euodia and Syntyche to "be nice" at the end of the letter to the Philippians.

No, this letter clearly has a singular and very important message personally to Philemon and doctrinally to the Body of Christ. It's purpose was to secure the freedom of Onesimus, and as preserved by the early Christians for doctrine, it was recognized as directive to the entire early church.

Indeed, history indicates that slavery among Christians had died out until Christianity became the national religion of the Empire...which depended economically on slavery. At that point, the empire was able to use the Church to validate all of its actions. That's the reason the Church should remain unentangled with government: So that the Church need never countersign the actions of earthly governments.

On to Philemon:

Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love.

Translation: I have a big stick, but I'm going to speak softly.

It is as none other than Paul, an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus

Translation: You know me--I am your elder and I suffer even now for the Body in which you are a member.

that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains....I am sending him who is my very heart back to you.

Translation: I consider Onesimus my own son--which is about the most important familial relationship possible in this society. Men value their sons more than they value their wives. Just want you to know how serious this is to me.

I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary.

Translation: But there is a legal matter I need you to attend to.

Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

Translation: What part of "no longer as a slave" is hard to understand? "No longer as a slave" does not mean "be nice to him as a slave." "No longer as a slave" actually means "no longer as a slave."

If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

Translation: He was a slave as a penalty for a crime he committed against you or a debt he owed you (which is the only bondage we allow among Christians). Put that debt on my tab. That makes him free.

I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back, not to mention that you owe me your very self.

Translation: Oh, and by the way, I won't mention that you owe me a whole lot more. Well, maybe I did mention it...so that cancels whatever Onesimus owed...and you're still in debt to me.

Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

Translation: Capish? Good. I expect you to do it.

And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.

Translation: I'm going to drop by soon to make sure you have done what I--ahem--"asked" you to do.
Was Onesimus's slavery to Philemon chattel or debt bondage?
 
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Rose_bud

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Still, I think that you and I may have different views on Eschatology, and that difference may, despite some similarities in our thinking, color our respective views on what Jesus has intended for the world.

And that's ok since neither of us knows fully how it's supposed to work itself out.
I agree, how the end is perceived or when the end is perceived, does impact belief and behaviour in the here and now. I'd even add the various views of the kingdom and what good news means:confused:.
 
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RDKirk

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Was Onesimus's slavery to Philemon chattel or debt bondage?
If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

That would have been a useless comment if Onesimus had been a chattel slave. And, again, chattel slavery was impermissible for Christians anyway.
 
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Clare73

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Ordained? I think we need to be careful of this time dependent notion.

And there's a reason why: because early Christians figured out that they needed to be as shrewd as serpents in carrying our their lives and ministries. Telling the Romans to "release the captives" would have been met by more than just ridicule ... it would have added to the already egregious reactions to Christians by the Romans.
Did the apostles govern the Romans, or the people of God?
No, slavery is immoral. And I think we realize that Jesus came to set us on track to recognize this truth among all people in the world.
I guess I have a different view of the word of God written. . .more akin to pre-NT believers; i.e., it means what it states and is not a compromise with the world, nor is it the apostles compromising God's truth for the sake of shrewdness.

If that were the case, they would never have referred to Jesus as "Lord," along side Nero.
 
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Clare73

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Something important to note is that it was not (and is not) the mission of the Church to "fix" the Roman empire. Scripture is not about "fixing" the world, it is about how the people of God are to live while in the world. If you read 1 Peter, you see that the Body of Christ operates as a "diplomatic mission" to the nations of the world, representing the Kingdom of Heaven.

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. -- Ephesians 6
Eph 6 does not attempt to alter the laws of slavery.
Rather, it enforces slave ownership, requiring Christian slave owners to treat their slaves well.
To a Christian who had slaves this verse is a jaw dropper. Look carefully at it, because this verse changes everything.

If the slave owner considered the slave his personal property, this verse creates a different relationship. Both persons are actually the slaves of the Lord. That makes the "slave" no longer the property of the "master,"
If that were the case, Paul would not have had Onesimus, after apparently stealing (Phm 18) and running away from Philemon his owner, then meeting Paul and becoming a Christian willing to return to his master, whereupon Paul personally appeals to Philemon that Onesimus be accepted as a Christian brother.
Translation: But there is a legal matter I need you to attend to.

Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.
That legal matter being Philemon's legal ownership of Onesimus, and Paul's appeal to free him as a Christian brother.
There is no change in the legal status of Onesimus apart from that which Philemon will grant as his owner.
 
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Halbhh

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Rather, it enforces slave ownership,
If we read Philemon we learn what it looked like to obey Christ after a slave owner is converted, if he/she had real faith -- in that time, as they began to realize that of course a slave master must treat a slave well (as we read word for word) -- for example, they could not just expel a dependent slave onto the street to starve -- but must love them fully.

And if the slave wanted freedom they must give it and free that slave.


The instruction to Philemon isn't an exception, but the rule for us all always, and for them in the 1rst century too!

8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, b who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me.


If Philemon had not done as Paul asked (and never repented of that sinful refusal to treat Onesimus well....) then Philemon would have gone to perish in the lake of fire. Hell.

But we can expect that instead Philemon did just what Paul asked me to do, from love.

Here's an interesting seeming outcome: Onesimus (Greek: Ὀνήσιμος, translit. Onēsimos, meaning "useful"; died c. 68 AD, according to Catholic tradition),[1] also called Onesimus of Byzantium and The Holy Apostle Onesimus in the Eastern Orthodox Church,[2] was probably a slave[3] to Philemon of Colossae, a man of Christian faith. He may also be the same Onesimus named by Ignatius of Antioch (died c. 107) as bishop in Ephesus[4] which would put Onesimus's death closer to 95. If so, Onesimus went from slave to brother to bishop.
Onesimus - Wikipedia


We can learn: Christ simply ended what modern people think of as slavery in Matthew 7:12 for all who are true believers!

And the stakes of whether or not we obey are given in the immediate next 2 verses:

12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
 
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Halbhh

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I assume many of you saw that "He Gets Us" Super Bowl commercial

or maybe some of you have experience with the organization

seem like it was very controversial--I am curious to hear your thoughts on it
That one commercial is a pretty good illustration of 2 key principles Christ taught and commanded us to follow.

That we serve one another (such as by foot washing), and that we love people across social divides, those that are not in our own closer group we are used to being with...

So, I quoted the Words from Christ then when I just a minute ago posted that video for music (which lyrics worked quite well by chance):

Have a look. :)
 
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Clare73

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If we read Philemon we learn what it looked like to obey Christ after a slave owner is converted, if he/she had real faith -- in that time, as they began to realize that of course a slave master must treat a slave well (as we read word for word) -- for example, they could not just expel a dependent slave onto the street to starve -- but must love them fully.

And if the slave wanted freedom they must give it and free that slave.
That is nowhere stated in the NT.
 
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Halbhh

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That is nowhere stated in the NT.
Read though and listen:



And for the quote from Matthew 7, it's even more crucially important: read and believe.

Don't argue with me about it -- I'm not God (these are not my quotes), I'm merely a mortal human like you. Trust in Him, and His words.

I will not debate whether Christ's words are real/true/applicable. It's not important to prove me right or wrong. We all need to just listen to Him, trust Him, and "obey" His words to us.
 
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FameBright

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If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

That would have been a useless comment if Onesimus had been a chattel slave. And, again, chattel slavery was impermissible for Christians anyway.
I guess I'm getting confused. I said that I didn't know how Paul was invalidating slavery.

Then you brought up the letter of Onesimus. Given our shared understanding that this situation involves debt bondage, were you suggesting that Paul was specifically invalidating this form of slavery?

The nuances of language play a significant role here. We recognize various forms of slavery: the oppressive kind, where people are treated as mere property; debt bondage; and even slavery as a social class.

In our modern context, chattel slavery—the ownership of individuals as property—is largely absent, except perhaps within prison systems. But what does the concept of slavery mean for us today? If we embrace Christianity, are we expected to relinquish our social status entirely, or should we simply set it aside when interacting with fellow believers? And how does this relate to the broader context of social equality?"
 
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Clare73

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Read though and listen:



And for the quote from Matthew 7, it's even more crucially important: read and believe.

Don't argue with me about it -- I'm not God (these are not my quotes), I'm merely a mortal human like you. Trust in Him, and His words.
Please specifically state the words and location of your assertion.
 
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Halbhh

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Please specifically state the words and location of your assertion.


The instruction to Philemon isn't an exception, but the rule for us all always, and for them in the 1rst century too!

8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, b who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me.


If Philemon had not done as Paul asked (and never repented of that sinful refusal to treat Onesimus well....) then Philemon would have gone to perish in the lake of fire. Hell.

But we can expect that instead Philemon did just what Paul asked me to do, from love.

Here's an interesting seeming outcome: Onesimus (Greek: Ὀνήσιμος, translit. Onēsimos, meaning "useful"; died c. 68 AD, according to Catholic tradition),[1] also called Onesimus of Byzantium and The Holy Apostle Onesimus in the Eastern Orthodox Church,[2] was probably a slave[3] to Philemon of Colossae, a man of Christian faith. He may also be the same Onesimus named by Ignatius of Antioch (died c. 107) as bishop in Ephesus[4] which would put Onesimus's death closer to 95. If so, Onesimus went from slave to brother to bishop.
Onesimus - Wikipedia


We can learn: Christ simply ended what modern people think of as slavery in Matthew 7:12 for all who are true believers!

And the stakes of whether or not we obey are given in the immediate next 2 verses:

12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
 
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Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0
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