A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Matthew 10:16 comes to mind.
“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

I don't know how to be both. I am easily taken in. These two are Christians and I trusted their Christianity as I suppose they trusted mine. In the end, we all disappointed each other. Pray for us please.

 

[HatGuy]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman Catholic beliefs such a prayer to Mary and the Saints, and Purgatory, also their view of Justification.

Our contention is that Christ has made satisfaction for our sins, once for all, completely. Asking God therefore, to be propitious toward us because of the merits and prayers of the saints, especially Mary is unfounded. Also, we cannot nor we need not think that by our own merits, we can alleviate temporal punishment or increase in virtue.

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

Help.

Have a read of Gerhard Forde's "Where God Meets Man".

Yes he can be controversial in some Lutheran circles but he's honestly a gem IMO.

It gets to this matter quite nicely. I'm not sure I could do it justice here. But basically, sometimes "appeasement" is over played. The point is to die with Christ and so leave the system of "points" completely. It's not that Jesus fills up our points for us, but rather that He died under the Law and so do we when we come to faith, to be raised a new creation.

I believe in penal substitution, but also Christus Victor. When you start putting these together it makes more sense, I think. It's about entering into his death and victory. It seems this is where Luther's theology in particular was focused, and was going.

It's early so I might have worded this badly.

 

[Fervent]

It seems you're touching on an important distance between the OT and later thought on the matter in that there is a great deal of abstraction in modern theology. Guilt is a very abstract concept, and is not presented as the principal issue in the OT regarding sin. Instead, the issue is a physical change implemented by sin in uncleanness. While today we think clean/unclean as an abstract notion it was not so in OT thinking. The sacrifices removed and destroyed the stain left by sin, and guilt was addressed through repentance and amends(such as paying back 3/5/7 fold what was taken). In the same way a Christus Victor atonement model captures that Christ's death removed a physical curse against the flesh that would put us in bondage to death. While the abstract guilt is likely a part of atonement, it is not as central as Western theology often holds it to be.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman ...
Help.

1 John 1:8-10
Easy-to-Read Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching.

Read full chapter
2 Peter 3
1 John 2
2 Peter 1
Easy-to-Read Version
1 Greetings from Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.

To all of you who share in the same valuable faith that we have. This faith was given to us because our God and Savior Jesus Christ always does what is good and right.

2 Grace and peace be given to you more and more, because now you know God and Jesus our Lord.

God Has Given Us Everything We Need
3 Jesus has the power of God. And his power has given us everything we need to live a life devoted to God. We have these things because we know him. Jesus chose us by his glory and goodness, 4 through which he also gave us the very great and rich gifts that he promised us. With these gifts you can share in being like God. And so you will escape the ruin that comes to people in the world because of the evil things they want.

5 Because you have these blessings, do all you can to add to your life these things: to your faith add goodness; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add patience; to your patience add devotion to God; 7 to your devotion add kindness toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, and to this kindness add love. 8 If all these things are in you and growing, you will never fail to be useful to God. You will produce the kind of fruit that should come from your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But those who don’t grow in these blessings are blind. They cannot see clearly what they have. They have forgotten that they were cleansed from their past sins.

10 My brothers and sisters, God called you and chose you to be his. Do your best to live in a way that shows you really are God’s called and chosen people. If you do all this, you will never fall. 11 And you will be given a very great welcome into the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a kingdom that never ends.

12 You already know these things. You are very strong in the truth you have. But I am always going to help you remember them. 13 While I am still living here on earth, I think it is right for me to remind you of them. 14 I know that I must soon leave this body. Our Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that. 15 I will try my best to make sure you remember these things even after I am gone.

We Saw Christ’s Glory
16 We told you about the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. We told you about his coming. The things we told you were not just clever stories that people invented. No, we saw the greatness of Jesus with our own eyes. 17 Jesus heard the voice of the great and glorious God. That was when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, “This is my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with him.” 18 And we heard that voice. It came from heaven while we were with Jesus on the holy mountain.[a]

19 This makes us more sure about what the prophets said. And it is good for you to follow closely what they said, which is like a light shining in a dark place. You have that light until the day begins and the morning star brings new light to your minds. 20 Most important of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures comes from the prophet’s own understanding. 21 No prophecy ever came from what some person wanted to say. But people were led by the Holy Spirit and spoke words from God.

Footnotes
2 Peter 1:18 This event is described in the Gospels. See Mt. 17:1-8; Mk. 9:2-8; Lk. 9:28-36.
1 Peter 5

 

[Taodeching]

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

I find this a foreign concept myself. I believe in the Recapitulation Theory of Atonement which is a very ancient theory of atonement. This looks like a great article explaining the theory https://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2011/11/09/the-recapitulation-theory/

 

[Buzzard3]

Not by our works but by the work of Christ.

James 2:24-26 says "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone" and "faith without works is dead". Sounds like our works are very important.

In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven Churches and mentions "works" ten times. Sounds like our works are very important.

In Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that their sins (ie, their works) can land them in hell. Sounds like our works are very important.

 

[The Liturgist]

I find this a foreign concept myself. I believe in the Recapitulation Theory of Atonement which is a very ancient theory of atonement. This looks like a great article explaining the theory What Is the Eastern Orthodox View of the Atonement?

I myself regard this as one of the models that we should hold as correct.

 

[Albion]

James 2:24-26 says "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone" and "faith without works is dead". Sounds like our works are very important.

In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven Churches and mentions "works" ten times. Sounds like our works are very important.

In Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that their sins (ie, their works) can land them in hell. Sounds like our works are very important.

No one who understands Sola Fide would say that works aren't very important, so I'm not finding anything that's especially revealing in that post.

 

[fhansen]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman Catholic beliefs such a prayer to Mary and the Saints, and Purgatory, also their view of Justification.

Our contention is that Christ has made satisfaction for our sins, once for all, completely. Asking God therefore, to be propitious toward us because of the merits and prayers of the saints, especially Mary is unfounded. Also, we cannot nor we need not think that by our own merits, we can alleviate temporal punishment or increase in virtue.

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

Help.

I agree. And it just ends up being God appeasing God anyway, God the Son appeasing God the Father. And why demand even faith in that case, if righteousness of the person is not required? Or why even demand an imputed righteousness if future sin, unrighteousness, is no longer counted against us?

 

[Buzzard3]

No one who understands Sola Fide would say that works aren't very important, so I'm not finding anything that's especially revealing in that post.

I wish I had a dollar for every "Bible-believing Christian" who believes they are saved by faith alone and that their sins - no matter how serious or plentiful - are irrelevant to salvation.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I wish I had a dollar for every "Bible-believing Christian" who believes they are saved by faith alone and that their sins - no matter how serious or plentiful - are irrelevant to salvation.

I'd be rich.

 

[Leaf473]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman Catholic beliefs such a prayer to Mary and the Saints, and Purgatory, also their view of Justification.

Our contention is that Christ has made satisfaction for our sins, once for all, completely. Asking God therefore, to be propitious toward us because of the merits and prayers of the saints, especially Mary is unfounded. Also, we cannot nor we need not think that by our own merits, we can alleviate temporal punishment or increase in virtue.

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

Help.

I think I've asked myself a similar question: why does God have such high standards and then get bent out of shape when we don't measure up?

But then he provides a fairly easy way out, just believe that Jesus died for our sins and came back to life again.

Can you then just live any way you want? Well yes, but... If you truly believe that Jesus died for our sins you'll want to do things that make God happy.

May the peace of the Lord be always with you!

 

[Albion]

I wish I had a dollar for every "Bible-believing Christian" who believes they are saved by faith alone and that their sins - no matter how serious or plentiful - are irrelevant to salvation.

We are saved by Faith rather than by accumulating a certain number of good deeds.

However what you wrote--three times for emphasis--in the prior post made the mistaken claim that they (Protestants) don't think good works are very important.

 

[Buzzard3]

Can you then just live any way you want? Well yes, but...

Well, I'll be darned ... a believer can live like Ted Bundy or Pablo Escobar and God will reward his life of evil with eternal life in Heaven!

Not sure which Bible you're reading, but in mine Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven ... so much for living any way you want.

 

[Buzzard3]

We are saved by Faith rather than by accumulating a certain number of good deeds.

We are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and obedience:
"Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

Adam and Eve got us into this mess in the first place by being disobedient.

 

[Albion]

We are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and obedience:
"Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

Several problems with that reply.

Adam and Eve lived before Jesus Christ and the saving work he accomplished, thus having Faith in him and his work on the Cross was not part of their lives. But it is for us.

And to think that we're saved by being "obedient" doesn't address the issue at Faith in Christ is what saves for the reason that we have not been capable of obeying consistently.

What's more, performing of good deeds with the intention of earning merit in God's eyes is not even the same as doing certain acts for the sake of obedience. There are a lof of verses which make this fact clear.

And you also got Leaf473's post completely backwards.

 

[Buzzard3]

Adam and Eve lived before Jesus Christ and the saving work he accomplished, thus having Faith in him and his work on the Cross was not part of their lives. But it is for us.

Obedience is a constant theme throughout the Bible; it's there from beginning to end. God demanded obedience from Adam and Eve, from the OT Jews and he demands it from Christians.

What's more, performing of good deeds with the intention of earning merit in God's eyes is not even the same as doing certain acts for the sake of obedience

What's wrong with "earning merit in God's eyes"? Sounds like a good idea to me!

What's more, performing of good deeds with the intention of earning merit in God's eyes is not even the same as doing certain acts for the sake of obedience

Being obedient DOES earn you merit in
God's eyes.
For one thing, it demonstrates your love of God (John 14:15).
For another, obeying the commandment to love your neighbour creates peace and harmony in society, which pleases God and therefore earns merit in God's eyes.

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Matt 5:9)

"Now there was at Joppa a disciple named Tabitha ... She was full of good works and acts of charity." (Acts 9:36)

 

[Albion]

Obedience is a constant theme throughout the Bible; it's there from beginning to end.

Of course, but it wasn't what our discussion here was about.

As I was saying, this lack of attention to what's being posted is what's gotten this discussion way off track.

What's wrong with "earning merit in God's eyes"? Sounds like a good idea to me!

Well, that IS the way we humans tend to do things, I agree. Complete the school's required coursework and you earn the degree. Be nice to your co-workers and you become worthy of their respect and friendship.

HOWEVER, that is not how salvation comes--by flattering God or earning a certain number of "points."

Rather, it's through relying upon Christ and trusting in his promises. That's a matter of Faith in what HE did for us since we cannot not do enough on our own to earn our way to heaven. If we could, we wouldn't have needed a Savior.

That said, obedience and charitable living are NOT being dismissed as unimportant, but they are not what our salvation is based on.

For one thing, it demonstrates your love of God (John 14:15).

Okay.

For another, obeying the commandment to love your neighbour creates peace and harmony in society, which pleases God and therefore earns merit in God's eyes.

Okay.

We agree that these are important or "very important" to do, but that's not what we had been talking about.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Bible also tells us to lay up treasures in Heaven; regarding this Pastor did a Bible Study on the Biblical teachings regarding merits.

While all believers who's faith is manifested in repentance will receive eternal life; those with the ability to do so, and who's faith is also manifested in works as well as repentance do earn merits in heaven... what those mean to us, we do not know; maybe a place closer to the head of the table (Revelation)?

 

[Albion]

The Bible also tells us to lay up treasures in Heaven; regarding this Pastor did a Bible Study on the Biblical teachings regarding merits.

While all believers who's faith is manifested in repentance will receive eternal life; those with the ability to do so, and who's faith is also manifested in works as well as repentance do earn merits in heaven...

what those mean to us, we do not know; maybe a place closer to the head of the table (Revelation)?

That's right. What some people misunderstand is that salvation comes first and is a matter of Faith in Christ. For true believers, there will be rewards in heaven according to the lives they led on Earth, although their good deeds counted nothing towards salvation itself. That (the redemption of men) was accomplished by Christ.