School Field Trip to Teacher's Lesbian Wedding Sparks Controversy

[catlover]

What is a form of hatred is the belief that anything that does not promote the liberal agenda is spurred on by hatred.

Do liberals hate conservatives so much that the best they can do is call them hateful for disagreeing with their values or lack thereof?

Liberals are doing the same thing with the election. If you disagree with Obama, you're branded hateful and a racist.

Frankly, I don't care if liberals think I hate LGBTs. I'd much rather stand before God's throne with assurance that I shared His truth in love than to not share His truth and be accused of hate.

How do you know you will stand before God's throne?

 

[dinonum]

The biggest issue I see with all of this is just that there is no real reason or justification that any kind of wedding (same-sex or not) as a field trip is actually viable. When's the last time any of us were taken on a field trip with our teacher to see a wedding, I mean seriously?!

To answer the poll, I plan on homeschooling my children. Technically the method I'd prefer to use will be non-schooling, but we are going to be a traveling family.

 

[No Swansong]

Well, I don't think so, given the horror stories I mentioned.

My experience with home school students, which I would imagine is far greater than most involved in this discussion would indicate that the socially inept student is by far the exception instead of the rule.

I do think its a pretty huge assumption to imagine that your child will be one of the 0.0001% of students killed in a school shooting if you let them attend a school with peers.

Except that there were real shootings at his school with real victims. Young people he knew and had attended class with. It is obvious that if these two who were doing nothing except changing classes, (one building to the next) that it could have been anyone.

There are still shootings by the way within a half mile of this school almost weekly and certainly monthly. Fortunately no other students have been harmed but that is more a matter of luck than it is anything else. [/quote]

I mean, school shootings are a horrible horrible phenomenon, however, lets be honest, your child is far more likely to die crossing the street on the way to the park than they are to die in a school shooting.

Tell that to the parents of the two youngsters who were shot.

I think the benefits of exposure to real world life experience that a school environment gives a child are greater than the risks the child is exposed to.

Well fortunately they are not your children they are mine and it's a huge assumption of yours that my children are not exposed to real world life experience. School is not the only place this occurs.

 

[No Swansong]

Okay, it's off topic. You're right.



They have a right but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. When hatred is taught to the next generation eventually somebody has to correct it.

Thus my comment that it isn't the choice I would make. However I would question the idea that homeschooling a child because of a lack of confidence in the curriculum of the school equates to teaching hate.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

My experience with home school students, which I would imagine is far greater than most involved in this discussion would indicate that the socially inept student is by far the exception instead of the rule.

Except that there were real shootings at his school with real victims. Young people he knew and had attended class with. It is obvious that if these two who were doing nothing except changing classes, (one building to the next) that it could have been anyone.

There are still shootings by the way within a half mile of this school almost weekly and certainly monthly. Fortunately no other students have been harmed but that is more a matter of luck than it is anything else.

Tell that to the parents of the two youngsters who were shot.

Well fortunately they are not your children they are mine and it's a huge assumption of yours that my children are not exposed to real world life experience. School is not the only place this occurs.[/quote]

I'm really not trying to sound snide, this is a serious question... if you life in such a bad area, why don't you move?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Tell that to the parents of the two youngsters who were shot.

Well fortunately they are not your children they are mine and it's a huge assumption of yours that my children are not exposed to real world life experience. School is not the only place this occurs.

I'm really not trying to sound snide, this is a serious question... if you life in such a bad area, why don't you move?[/QUOTE]

I don't think Lynn has that option the same way most parents do. IIRC, she is a foster parent of GLBT kids who are wards of the state.

 

[No Swansong]

Tell that to the parents of the two youngsters who were shot.

Well fortunately they are not your children they are mine and it's a huge assumption of yours that my children are not exposed to real world life experience. School is not the only place this occurs.

I'm really not trying to sound snide, this is a serious question... if you life in such a bad area, why don't you move?

We did two years ago. Only after we could finally afford to. By this time my oldest had finished high school and my youngest was mostly through. By the way they are both intelligent, well rounded, socially capable young men who have and will continue to succeed in higher education.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

We did two years ago. Only after we could finally afford to. By this time my oldest had finished high school and my youngest was mostly through. By the way they are both intelligent, well rounded, socially capable young men who have and will continue to succeed in higher education.

And I wish them all the best, I genuinely do. But please understand I can opnly go of my own experience. And while I am happy for you that you are happy with the way your kids are (really, I am) I've just got to mention that often the way parents relate to their kids, and the way those kids relate to others in a social setting, is not always the same.

I honestly hope you're kids go on to be happy, popular, inteligent contributors to the community, and that you can be proud of your part in them turning out that way. And I'm sure there are a great many home school students who turn out exactly like that. Just none of the ones I have encountered in my personal experience seem to integrate into wider society without difficulties.

 

[No Swansong]

And I wish them all the best, I genuinely do. But please understand I can opnly go of my own experience. And while I am happy for you that you are happy with the way your kids are (really, I am) I've just got to mention that often the way parents relate to their kids, and the way those kids relate to others in a social setting, is not always the same.

I honestly hope you're kids go on to be happy, popular, inteligent contributors to the community, and that you can be proud of your part in them turning out that way. And I'm sure there are a great many home school students who turn out exactly like that. Just none of the ones I have encountered in my personal experience seem to integrate into wider society without difficulties.

I appreciate your kind words and well wishes. I cannot argue against your personal experience except to point out that it has not been my experience but I will agree with you that homeschooling takes discipline, attention and hard work. I would never make a blanket statement that home schooling is best for all students or families. Obviously it isn't. But it is a very good option for many and those parents who make such a decision should not be accused of everything from neglect to child abuse. (these comments have been made on other threads not on this one.)


Now as to the OP. I support parents having the right to remove their children from Public Schools if they strongly oppose the schools. I do not however agree with them taking their tax money to do so.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Thus my comment that it isn't the choice I would make. However I would question the idea that homeschooling a child because of a lack of confidence in the curriculum of the school equates to teaching hate.

I think the objection to schools teaching respect for diversity cannot be correctly labeled as merely "a lack of confidence in the curriculum".

 

[Texas Lynn]

I don't think Lynn has that option the same way most parents do. IIRC, she is a foster parent of GLBT kids who are wards of the state.

That would depend on the real estate market which isn't good right now. But I'm satisfied with our location. Everywhere you go there are social problems. Remeber what I said above about the school shootings in Paducah, Kentucky, and Jonesboro, Arkansas? These seemingly pristine "safe" communities were where these henious crimes occurred.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn,
What some people see as hatred others see as dysfuctional perversion and child abuse. I think I would rather see a discussion on it before anyone suggests ditching one for the other.

I agree. People who would do things like withdraw kids from school over such a thing are a "classic "dysfunctional family" as much as that term is a redundancy and it is emotionally abusive to kids to teach them to hate but in the present reality not too much can be done about it until they grow into adults.

then you don’t agree, you disagree with my view.

It is certainly a "perversion" to have such extremist views. LGBT kids are often victims of child abuse, targeted by homophobic parents and caretakers.

No the perversion and dysfunctional extremist views are yours. To subject children to such dysfunction presented as normal is child abuse in my opinion. And who are LGBT kids as opposed to kids?

 

[Texas Lynn]

To Texas Lynn,
What some people see as hatred others see as dysfuctional perversion and child abuse. I think I would rather see a discussion on it before anyone suggests ditching one for the other.
then you don’t agree, you disagree with my view.

No the perversion and dysfunctional extremist views are yours. To subject children to such dysfunction presented as normal is child abuse in my opinion. And who are LGBT kids as opposed to kids?

I'm sorry I'm not understanding this post. I'm opposed to teaching kids hatred and bigotry. That's a form of child abuse IMO. That's hardly 'extremist".

In 1977 California voted on the "Briggs Initiative" to ban LGBTs from serving as teachers. It failed by about a 67-33% margin. and the world has gotten a lot more tolerant in the last 31 years. So it seems now the extremists are those advocating harm to LGBTs.

 

[No Swansong]

I think the objection to schools teaching respect for diversity cannot be correctly labeled as merely "a lack of confidence in the curriculum".

Fine, we can disagree. However please remember that what some people call teaching diversity others consider indoctrination. I am confident enough in the critical thinking skills that my children possess that I wouldn't consider such a curriculum a threat, but others do not have such confidence, nor might their children have strong critical thinking skills.

I'll give you an example. While my oldest was still in the public middle schools he had a teacher that taught that over 10% of the population is homosexual. This was a social studies class and the subject was appropriate and well taught. My son countered with statistics from at least 3 secular organizations including the American Psychological Association which were peer reviewed that demonstrated the percentage to actually be much lower. The teacher refused to allow such information to be presented to the class, refused him the opportunity to make his presentation and instead simply didn't permit him to complete his assignment. (she didn't count the points against him) She told him that they would just have to agree to disagree. Now my son didn't question morality all he did was present alternative statistics from reputable sources, yet they weren't allowed. In fact part of my sons presentation was meant to address the prejudice that homosexuals have been subjected to over the course of the past several decades. My son was able to understand that the teacher had an agenda and let the issue die. Not all students have this kind of self confidence. More importantly no other student in the class questioned the 10% statistic that the teacher presented.

Some parents would see such behavior as indoctrination. I consider it simple ignorance and after all even teachers and curriculum authors can make mistakes but I would not oppose parents having their children excused from such classes.

But like I wrote earlier, it's ok that we disagree, your posts are usually thought provoking at the least, and I enjoy reading them.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Texas Lynn,

I'm sorry I'm not understanding this post. I'm opposed to teaching kids hatred and bigotry. That's a form of child abuse IMO. That's hardly 'extremist".

But that’s just your view, my view is that teaching same sex unions which are dysfunctional and against God’s purposes is tantamount to child abuse. You seem unable to acknowledge other people’s views.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Fine, we can disagree. However please remember that what some people call teaching diversity others consider indoctrination. I am confident enough in the critical thinking skills that my children possess that I wouldn't consider such a curriculum a threat, but others do not have such confidence, nor might their children have strong critical thinking skills.

I'll give you an example. While my oldest was still in the public middle schools he had a teacher that taught that over 10% of the population is homosexual. This was a social studies class and the subject was appropriate and well taught. My son countered with statistics from at least 3 secular organizations including the American Psychological Association which were peer reviewed that demonstrated the percentage to actually be much lower. The teacher refused to allow such information to be presented to the class, refused him the opportunity to make his presentation and instead simply didn't permit him to complete his assignment. (she didn't count the points against him) She told him that they would just have to agree to disagree. Now my son didn't question morality all he did was present alternative statistics from reputable sources, yet they weren't allowed. In fact part of my sons presentation was meant to address the prejudice that homosexuals have been subjected to over the course of the past several decades. My son was able to understand that the teacher had an agenda and let the issue die. Not all students have this kind of self confidence. More importantly no other student in the class questioned the 10% statistic that the teacher presented.

Some parents would see such behavior as indoctrination. I consider it simple ignorance and after all even teachers and curriculum authors can make mistakes but I would not oppose parents having their children excused from such classes.

But like I wrote earlier, it's ok that we disagree, your posts are usually thought provoking at the least, and I enjoy reading them.

That may be a specific instance of a teacher getting her back up over a trivial matter but by and large reeducation against prejudices is a worthwhile goal.

Being in the child protection business I can tell you most in our field look in askance at parents wanting to opt out of sex education class for instance because it raises suspicion that sexual assault or incest is being covered up. I am probably much more tolerant than most of my colleagues when it comes to dealing with clients who are paranoid of such things. I will accept the individual diversity of them but make sure I dot my i's and cross my t's in my reports because if I don't and something is revealed later the finger comes back to point at me.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn,

Being in the child protection business I can tell you most in our field look in askance at parents wanting to opt out of sex education class for instance because it raises suspicion that sexual assault or incest is being covered up.

yet the parents are withdrawing them from the abuse that isnt being covered up, but flaunted and paraded in the lessons.

 

[No Swansong]

That may be a specific instance of a teacher getting her back up over a trivial matter but by and large reeducation against prejudices is a worthwhile goal.

Being in the child protection business I can tell you most in our field look in askance at parents wanting to opt out of sex education class for instance because it raises suspicion that sexual assault or incest is being covered up. I am probably much more tolerant than most of my colleagues when it comes to dealing with clients who are paranoid of such things. I will accept the individual diversity of them but make sure I dot my i's and cross my t's in my reports because if I don't and something is revealed later the finger comes back to point at me.

Do you have statistics Lynn that show a correlation between parents who want to opt out of Sexual Education classes and sexual abuse?

 

[Texas Lynn]

Dear Texas Lynn,
But that’s just your view, my view is that teaching same sex unions which are dysfunctional and against God’s purposes is tantamount to child abuse. You seem unable to acknowledge other people’s views.

I can acknowledge that your view and my view on this issue are 180° apart. I'm not sure what my "acknowledging" that accomplishes. I respectfully plan to advocate for my view and against yours.

I think you needed an "and" between "purposes" and "is" there.

You make 3 claims, sort of about "same sex unions":

1. They are dysfunctional
2. They are "against God's purposes"
3. They are "tantamount to child abuse"

All are easily refuted:

1. A "dysfunctional family" is a redundancy. Given that outside such places as Canada and Massachusetts same sex unions are not legally permitted the committment to be a same sex couple is a stronger degree of commitment than most heterosexual ones, and the relationships tend to be more egalitarian. The term is primarily merely an epithet. It is used for families in which alcoholism and domestic violence are present, but it is more often applied to religious extremists than LGBTs.

2. No human being is capable of understanding "God's Purposes" and any assertion otherwise is generally an act of hubris.

3. Child abuse amounts to harm to children. Teaching love, respect and diversity is precisely the opposite. Again, we see so many more cases among religious extremists than among LGBTs, except among LGBTs who are religious extremists.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn

I can acknowledge that your view and my view on this issue are 180° apart. I'm not sure what my "acknowledging" that accomplishes. I respectfully plan to advocate for my view and against yours.

I agree, likewise.

You make 3 claims, sort of about "same sex unions":

1. They are dysfunctional
Whatever laws Canada and Massachusetts pass, other nations and states pass laws that aren’t dysfunctional. The main reason same sex unions are dysfunctional is that the sexual reproductive organs of man and woman are designed to interact together. The penis to deliver sperm to the vagina

2. They are "against God's purposes"
If you believe no human being is capable of understanding God’s purposes, you must act of all your own views. Of course men can know God’s purposes, Jesus says obey all His commands and has given the Holy Spirit to lead and guide those who believe. (John 14-15) Same sex unions are against God’s purposes because God’s purpose in creation was woman for man to be united. Genesis 2, Matthew 19, Ephesians 5)

3. They are "tantamount to child abuse"
Teaching dysfunction is abuse. Children need to be taught the truth. The truth also includes love and not harming others, but love and harm are different from sex. Liberal secular extremists want to teach dysfunction.