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Ethics & Morality
Free will and determinism
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<blockquote data-quote="stevevw" data-source="post: 77678607" data-attributes="member: 342064"><p>Yes but its not "just' comparing but an important destinction. A conscious deliberation is different to an unconscious one. The main difference is that unlike most unconscious ones consciousness involves a deeper level of awareness, of self in the equation and of certain knowledge about reality that non conscious process don't have which can make a difference to reality. . </p><p></p><p>Yes so it makes sense that because we are conscious of what is happening, looking deeper, giving attention this implies some level of control because in having that deeper insight and knowledge also gives us agency.</p><p></p><p>Yeah I thought I'd throw that in just to remind that science has not even worked out consciousness let along free will. The idea of there being no free will is premised on the assumption that consciousness is a by product of the physical brain. Hense if the subjective belief and experience of consciousness is caused by a physical antecedent or mechanism then so is free will. If consciousness is something beyond the physical brain which enables agents to have a degree of control over the physical then free will makes more sense. </p><p></p><p>So I am reminding that any arguement about there being no free will has no basis just like saying there is no consciousness beyond the physical brain. The only way we can ultimately know about free will and consciousness is to ask the subject, the observer who has the actual experiences and whether they believe they are an agent with control or not because that is 1st hand evidence and not 3rd hand rationalisations based on a limited measure of quantity of a qualitative experience. </p><p></p><p>When I say forces I don't mean forced but influential forces like conditioning or subcconscious processes that determine certain behaviours we have little control over. These are always operating in the background. I am saying that despite these influences we are not bound by them all the time. </p><p></p><p>We can intervene and overide these factors. Its more a matter of degrees than an either and or situation. Either antecedents block our free will or are completely absent when they may be present while being able to override these factors in various degrees which may lead to bigger changes and different trajectories that overide these factors. </p><p></p><p>I'm not saying we can act without involving antecedent conditions. I am saying we can act despite these antecendent conditions to various degrees. It doesn't have to be complete absense of antecedents and complete and total control. Its a bit of both depending on the individual and in some cases people can lose all control and be subject to the prior conditioning which makes it harder for them to have control and agency. </p><p></p><p>But at the same time others can have more control. I think its a case of aligning yourself with reality, tuning in so to speak which allows a person to gain a deeper level of agency and control. Thats why I think the spiritual and transcendent needs are important as they help develop that part of self which rises above the material world and gives more ability and control to be in touch with self and reality. </p><p></p><p>This actually has some support in that those with belief in spirtuality have better health, wellbeing and life outcomes and are not subject to pathologies but rise above. Any great achievement in life though physical ability is important really comes from the inner strength, the mindset that overcomes all odds and gives almost superhuman ability. </p><p></p><p>Quantum physics is random until the observation and measure is taken. Its also about how we measure and the type of questions we ask of reality. So in that sense though it is random at the quantum level we find it collapses into a non radom state when consciously observed and measured.</p><p></p><p>In that sense the observations and choices we make about reality, about the world, about our world and lives in some aspects collapse down into certain outcomes over others. So you can choose to get fit or choose to be a slob and this will have a real consequence in the world and create a certain reality. </p><p></p><p>This same idea can also be applied to groups of conscious observers culturally and socially. How we choose to set ourselves up, treat the world, see the world have a bearing on the world and how we see the world. </p><p></p><p>But our minds cannot be reduced to the quantum world like all physical aspects which contain particles and physics. Our conscious observations are not physical or measured in physics. Rather its a direct conscious experience of the physical world. So in that sense when we make choices and measures of what we observe we are injecting our consciousness into the physical and creating the state as a result. </p><p></p><p>We can observe directly the quantum world through an apartus but we are not reducibel to the aparatus or the physical constitutes of what we are measuring. In that sense what we choose to measure and observe, the questions we ask are what creates reality.</p><p></p><p>I don't know, evolution doesn't really care as far as survival of life. The most proficent and robust life are bacteria who I don;t think have agency. Yet they perform better evolutionary than eukaryotes. </p><p></p><p>So I don't think its about agency as far as survival is concerned as other creatures with no agency or less agency have done just as well in survival terms. We have only been around a fraction of the time. </p><p></p><p>Its more than agency and consciousness are a qualitative aspect rather than a necessity for quantative evolution. We have evolved to a higher level of quality that enriches our lives as opposed to other creatures. The question of why is still an ongoing research. But certainly evolution is inadequate to explain consciousness and agency considering that it deals with the physical aspects like genes, proteins, DNA ect and theres no genes for consciousness or subjective experiences.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="stevevw, post: 77678607, member: 342064"] Yes but its not "just' comparing but an important destinction. A conscious deliberation is different to an unconscious one. The main difference is that unlike most unconscious ones consciousness involves a deeper level of awareness, of self in the equation and of certain knowledge about reality that non conscious process don't have which can make a difference to reality. . Yes so it makes sense that because we are conscious of what is happening, looking deeper, giving attention this implies some level of control because in having that deeper insight and knowledge also gives us agency. Yeah I thought I'd throw that in just to remind that science has not even worked out consciousness let along free will. The idea of there being no free will is premised on the assumption that consciousness is a by product of the physical brain. Hense if the subjective belief and experience of consciousness is caused by a physical antecedent or mechanism then so is free will. If consciousness is something beyond the physical brain which enables agents to have a degree of control over the physical then free will makes more sense. So I am reminding that any arguement about there being no free will has no basis just like saying there is no consciousness beyond the physical brain. The only way we can ultimately know about free will and consciousness is to ask the subject, the observer who has the actual experiences and whether they believe they are an agent with control or not because that is 1st hand evidence and not 3rd hand rationalisations based on a limited measure of quantity of a qualitative experience. When I say forces I don't mean forced but influential forces like conditioning or subcconscious processes that determine certain behaviours we have little control over. These are always operating in the background. I am saying that despite these influences we are not bound by them all the time. We can intervene and overide these factors. Its more a matter of degrees than an either and or situation. Either antecedents block our free will or are completely absent when they may be present while being able to override these factors in various degrees which may lead to bigger changes and different trajectories that overide these factors. I'm not saying we can act without involving antecedent conditions. I am saying we can act despite these antecendent conditions to various degrees. It doesn't have to be complete absense of antecedents and complete and total control. Its a bit of both depending on the individual and in some cases people can lose all control and be subject to the prior conditioning which makes it harder for them to have control and agency. But at the same time others can have more control. I think its a case of aligning yourself with reality, tuning in so to speak which allows a person to gain a deeper level of agency and control. Thats why I think the spiritual and transcendent needs are important as they help develop that part of self which rises above the material world and gives more ability and control to be in touch with self and reality. This actually has some support in that those with belief in spirtuality have better health, wellbeing and life outcomes and are not subject to pathologies but rise above. Any great achievement in life though physical ability is important really comes from the inner strength, the mindset that overcomes all odds and gives almost superhuman ability. Quantum physics is random until the observation and measure is taken. Its also about how we measure and the type of questions we ask of reality. So in that sense though it is random at the quantum level we find it collapses into a non radom state when consciously observed and measured. In that sense the observations and choices we make about reality, about the world, about our world and lives in some aspects collapse down into certain outcomes over others. So you can choose to get fit or choose to be a slob and this will have a real consequence in the world and create a certain reality. This same idea can also be applied to groups of conscious observers culturally and socially. How we choose to set ourselves up, treat the world, see the world have a bearing on the world and how we see the world. But our minds cannot be reduced to the quantum world like all physical aspects which contain particles and physics. Our conscious observations are not physical or measured in physics. Rather its a direct conscious experience of the physical world. So in that sense when we make choices and measures of what we observe we are injecting our consciousness into the physical and creating the state as a result. We can observe directly the quantum world through an apartus but we are not reducibel to the aparatus or the physical constitutes of what we are measuring. In that sense what we choose to measure and observe, the questions we ask are what creates reality. I don't know, evolution doesn't really care as far as survival of life. The most proficent and robust life are bacteria who I don;t think have agency. Yet they perform better evolutionary than eukaryotes. So I don't think its about agency as far as survival is concerned as other creatures with no agency or less agency have done just as well in survival terms. We have only been around a fraction of the time. Its more than agency and consciousness are a qualitative aspect rather than a necessity for quantative evolution. We have evolved to a higher level of quality that enriches our lives as opposed to other creatures. The question of why is still an ongoing research. But certainly evolution is inadequate to explain consciousness and agency considering that it deals with the physical aspects like genes, proteins, DNA ect and theres no genes for consciousness or subjective experiences. [/QUOTE]
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