Your tradition or Paul’s tradition?

HopeSings · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
I'm not arguing with John, nor am I opposing you.
I simply made the observation that, as far as I know, you will not physically be dragged off to prison by non Christians who are opposing your faith.

If there are non Christians who hate you for being a Christian, that is persecution. It's mild, compared with what some people go through, but it's still real.
If Christians hate you, that is wrong and it should not be like that.

It's not mild when you want to kill yourself. Maybe some people do. Weep with those who weep and stop judging them.

Aaron112 · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
I simply made the observation that, as far as I know, you will not physically be dragged off to prison by non Christians who are opposing your faith.

Until it happens , that is; and then only if/when someone lets you know (unless it happens to you) . We (believers) are daily led to slaughter world wide. Even in the USA.

Humans worldwide are chattel every day - commodities bought and sold by those in power.

HopeSings · May 12, 2024

Aaron112 said:
Until it happens , that is; and then only if/when someone lets you know (unless it happens to you) . We (believers) are daily led to slaughter world wide. Even in the USA.

Humans worldwide are chattel every day - commodities bought and sold by those in popower

Yes. Hate is persecution because John said that hate is murder.

Aaron112 · May 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
My question is how did it evolve with today's Christians pointing out all nonbeliever's sins?

Evolve is not the right word, for many reasons. But that does not matter here nor on the forum.

False doctrines , false teachings, even apostates and anti-christs and enemies ,
infiltrated
and demons easily influenced "today's Christians" to start pointing out other's sins without Christ's Motive, i.e. in flagrant disobedience to God and His Word.
It has been happening much longer than we have been alive. Yes, for many generations.

Aaron112 · May 12, 2024

HopeSings said:
Yes. Hate is persecution because John said that hate is murder.

Better to realize it is Jesus Who Says This. As His Father Directed.
Not all hate, btw. Look and see/find/ IN BIBLE what and who God Hates Today.

HopeSings · May 12, 2024

Aaron112 said:
Better to realize it is Jesus Who Says This. As His Father Directed.
Not all hate, btw. Look and see/find/ IN BIBLE what and who God Hates Today.

The wrong type of hate is anything that is not from God in Christ. God is love.

Aaron112 · May 12, 2024

Diamond7 said:
But somehow you think we have a sheltered life and we have not had to endure persecution? Who told you that nonsense.

The devil often tells that. Just like the devil convinces multitudes that the devil Jesus talks about is not real and nothing to be concerned with , thus destroying many souls.

Aaron112 · May 12, 2024

Diamond7 said:
that is why people went to fight in WW2 to protect the freedom that we have paid a high price for.

Actually, truthfully, no. But not for here - gradually find out what world power instigated the blood shed, and don't worry nor be anxious about anything, REALIZE GOD has judged them, and they will suffer His Vengeance and His Wrath ....

Strong in Him · May 12, 2024

Diamond7 said:
I think you miss the point. You are the one that is persecuting her and treating her like worthless trash all the time feeling justified in what you are doing and saying.

I have no intention of persecuting anybody.
My only comment was that, as far as I know, we in the west are not persecuted for our faith in the way that the early church were.

And how do you know I am "feeling justified in what I am doing and saying?"

Diamond7 said:
This is why we left England and came to America to get away from this sort of persecution.

Disagreement, and/or challenging a statement, is not persecution.

Diamond7 said:
I am a direct descendant of the first person Bloody Mary burned at the stake. So we have endured the kind of persecution you are talking about and that is why people went to fight in WW2 to protect the freedom that we have paid a high price for. The director and principal of my high school were holocaust survivors. My dorm father was actually been a prisoner of war in Poland where a guard knocked out one of his eyes with the butt of a rifle. He wore a patch on that eye. Later on he escaped when he cut down a tree and pole voted over the barb wire fence.

Maybe you have not been persecuted but here in American we have paid a high price for the freedom that we have today.

I don't doubt that at all.

I said that we - and I meant those of us here, who are writing on this public forum - do not face the kind of persecution that the early church faced, and which some Christians still face today.
It is not a crime to write on a Christian forum. It is not a crime to proclaim the Gospel to non Christians nor to debate with other Christians. Read some of the threads on these forums - people have even criticised their government without any fear of reprisals, being censored, dragged off to prison, or whatever.

THAT is what I meant and was referring to.
Clearly none of us are in prison or dead - or we would not be able to write our posts and engage in this debate.

Diamond7 said:
Maybe you have not been persecuted but here in American we have paid a high price for the freedom that we have today. My dad served his country and was stationed in Germany right after the war. He was one of the first to go into the concentration camps after they were liberated. He want back 20 years later and he said he could still smell the burnt flesh. I wonder if that was his imagination.

Of course it wasn't, not did I say otherwise.

My family were in the Royal Scots Fusiliers and the Navy. My great uncle was killed in WW1, my grandfather was in both wars.
None of that has anything to do with my statements.

Diamond7 said:
But somehow you think we have a sheltered life and we have not had to endure persecution? Who told you that nonsense.

I'm sorry, but I suggest that you read my posts more carefully.
I said:

Strong in Him said:
We aren't persecuted and don't experience that.

Present tense.

Strong in Him said:
We can go to church without ;looking over our shoulders in case someone is waiting to arrest us. We can walk into any bookshop, buy a Bible and read it without fear that we will be arrested and imprisoned/tortured.
We can share our testimony, talk about our faith, give, and listen to, sermons. There are even Christian forums which allow us to debate with, and talk to, others - all without fear of punishment and death.

Present tense.

I never said that the OP has never endured opposition, persecution or hardship.
Some countries today do not allow freedom of speech. In some countries Christians are opposed, reported on, jailed etc for proclaiming their faith and publicly challenging authorities. The Apostles endured this; Peter, John and Paul were imprisoned, maybe more than once. James was beheaded, others had to flee overseas to avoid persecution and death.

As far as I know people on these forums do not experience that daily.
Of course, I may be wrong. Some Christians who post here may be doing so from a prison cell, while handcuffed to a wall. Some may have personally been beaten or starved for daring to express a view. Some may be looking over their shoulders as they write.
In a couple of hours, I will be leaving to walk to church - maybe you, or others on here, cannot do that. Maybe you have to hold any meetings at night, in a secret room and believers have a secret password so that other Christians know they belong to the group.
If so, I take back what I said.

But if the above does not describe what you are going through right now, then my statement "we, in the west, are not persecuted for our faith", is a valid one.

Strong in Him · May 12, 2024

HopeSings said:
It's not mild when you want to kill yourself. Maybe some people do. Weep with those who weep and stop judging them.

I'm not judging them, or you - I am sorry, and appalled, that anyone has made you feel that way.

I suppose you know that I am a volunteer for a charity that helps suicidal people?
No?
Well how do you know I don't weep with those who want to end their own lives?

Diamond7 · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
My only comment was that, as far as I know, we in the west are not persecuted for our faith in the way that the early church were.

I have read corrie tan boons book and I have also read tortured for christ.

Diamond7 · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
I said that we - and I meant those of us here, who are writing on this public forum

We here on this forum include our friends and family and the people we associate with. We are the body of Christ and we feel each others pain. We have compassion for our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

In Acts 5:41, after the apostles were brought before the Sanhedrin and threatened for preaching in the name of Jesus, they left rejoicing. The verse states: “The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing that they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name” 1. This highlights their perspective that suffering for Christ was an honor.

Strong in Him · May 12, 2024

Diamond7 said:
I have read corrie tan boons book and I have also read tortured for christ.

So have I; what's that got to do with it?

HopeSings · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
I have no intention of persecuting anybody.
My only comment was that, as far as I know, we in the west are not persecuted for our faith in the way that the early church were.

And how do you know I am "feeling justified in what I am doing and saying?"

Disagreement, and/or challenging a statement, is not persecution.

I don't doubt that at all.

I said that we - and I meant those of us here, who are writing on this public forum - do not face the kind of persecution that the early church faced, and which some Christians still face today.
It is not a crime to write on a Christian forum. It is not a crime to proclaim the Gospel to non Christians nor to debate with other Christians. Read some of the threads on these forums - people have even criticised their government without any fear of reprisals, being censored, dragged off to prison, or whatever.

THAT is what I meant and was referring to.
Clearly none of us are in prison or dead - or we would not be able to write our posts and engage in this debate.

Of course it wasn't, not did I say otherwise.

My family were in the Royal Scots Fusiliers and the Navy. My great uncle was killed in WW1, my grandfather was in both wars.
None of that has anything to do with my statements.

I'm sorry, but I suggest that you read my posts more carefully.
I said:

Present tense.

Present tense.

I never said that the OP has never endured opposition, persecution or hardship.
Some countries today do not allow freedom of speech. In some countries Christians are opposed, reported on, jailed etc for proclaiming their faith and publicly challenging authorities. The Apostles endured this; Peter, John and Paul were imprisoned, maybe more than once. James was beheaded, others had to flee overseas to avoid persecution and death.

As far as I know people on these forums do not experience that daily.
Of course, I may be wrong. Some Christians who post here may be doing so from a prison cell, while handcuffed to a wall. Some may have personally been beaten or starved for daring to express a view. Some may be looking over their shoulders as they write.
In a couple of hours, I will be leaving to walk to church - maybe you, or others on here, cannot do that. Maybe you have to hold any meetings at night, in a secret room and believers have a secret password so that other Christians know they belong to the group.
If so, I take back what I said.

But if the above does not describe what you are going through right now, then my statement "we, in the west, are not persecuted for our faith", is a valid one.

The apostles persecution was not just death and jail time. Why would we belittle any persecution?

fhansen · May 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
This made me think. A lot of people reverence Paul's teachings and his teachings were directed toward Christians. As far as I know, when Paul spoke to non-Christian it was about Jesus. My question is how did it evolve with today's Christians pointing out all nonbeliever's sins?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean. Both Jesus and Paul spoke about sin, of course. And while many believers like to point out other's sins, many other believers don't seem to possess such self-righteousness-and are aware of their own sinfulness-and their struggle against it.

HopeSings · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
I'm not judging them, or you - I am sorry, and appalled, that anyone has made you feel that way.

I suppose you know that I am a volunteer for a charity that helps suicidal people?
No?
Well how do you know I don't weep with those who want to end their own lives?

I'm saying that you need to stop saying that people's feelings of persecution mean little in comparison to the apostles suffering. That doesn't share tears at all. It just says to stop crying.

Strong in Him · May 12, 2024

Diamond7 said:
We here on this forum include our friends and family and the people we associate with. We are the body of Christ and we feel each others pain. We have compassion for our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

But I was asking about personal experience.

Are you, personally, in prison for proclaiming your faith as the Apostles were?
Have you got someone pointing a gun at your head if you write on these forums, go to church, read the Bible?
If not, then my observation in post #39 is valid; we are not persecuted for our faith.

We might know people in other countries who are. We pray for them, stand with them and offer them prayers and support, and we will not be persecuted for doing so.

Strong in Him · May 12, 2024

HopeSings said:
The apostles persecution was not just death and jail time. Why would we belittle any persecution?

I'm not.

Diamond7 · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
So have I; what's that got to do with it?

I thought maybe you wanted to talk about Corrie Tan Boon and what she suffered and endured but I guess you don't.

HopeSings · May 12, 2024

Strong in Him said:
I'm not.

Sure you are. I'm not dead so my suffering means little to you.

Your tradition or Paul’s tradition?

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