The Danger of "Keeping Sabbath."

HIM said:

The Sabbath and fornication are the most ignored. So?

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Does it matter since if you break one, you break them all. That was Moses' point when he tossed down the tablets of stone at the sight of idol worship in the camp.

Gary K said:

So you think Sabbath keeping is all about the nitpicking details? It's about spending the day in communion with with God.

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Why do you keep telling me what I think instead of asking me what I think.

Would you call God’s instructions “nitpicking?” If there are no guidelines for Sabbath observance then there really isn’t anything different about that day.


And by the way why would you not consider every day a day to commune with God?

Gary K said:

You said a person needs to explain all the details of keeping the Sabbath. That strongly implies rules based Sabbath keeping. It's legalism.

The Sabbath is a day God asked us to set aside for communion with Him without the distractions of every day life. A holy convocation. Exodus 12: 16

Isaiah 58 is a good description of worshiping God with verse 13 being a good description of keeping the Sabbath.

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How is telling people that they must keep the Sabbath not legalism but telling them how is?

When we seek righteousness from law keeping that is legalism whether it is telling people they must keep the sabbath or how to keep it.

Since you describe explaining how to keep the law, at least the 4th commandment as legalism would that not make Jesus a legalist based on His teachings like His sermon on the mount?

Now to be clear, anything we do for God including Sabbath keeping is not the issue. Why we do them is.

We have a righteousness apart from the law that does what the law couldn’t. Whether we keep the Sabbath or not does not effect that righteousness.

Paul wrote that in Christ all things are made new. Furthermore He added, that we should not judge one another over this issue.

If a person keeps the sabbath onto the lord because He saved them, praise God; if a bother or sister keeps all days alike onto the lord for their salvation, praise the. Lord.

guevaraj said:

Brother, God saves us from sin through obeying the Fourth Commandment and not through forgiveness alone. Forgiveness takes care of our past sins and obedience to the Fourth Commandment takes care of our future sins. A leopard can not change his spots alone, but God can change the leopard's spots! God is changing us from sinners to non-sinners as we obey His Fourth Commandment! Forgiveness only deals with our past sins and not with our future sins.

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The scriptures do not teach this. We are specifically told,” Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law, no one will be justified. "(Galatians 2:16)

We are justified by faith. Being justified means measuring up to God's law. Faith saves us; love motivates us to obey. Obedience is not what saves us but what happens as we walk after the spirit.

Remember what it says in Romans? Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Yet even before faith, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and then sincere repentance, a turning away from it that occurs by the Holy Spirit. But it is finally faith in Christ that saves us. Faith that He became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:21)

Once we believe His promise to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, we are clean and stand before God as if we had never sinned.

Some may ask, “Does that mean I can sin as much as I want?” I would ask those, “How much do you want to sin?” Those in love with their savior do not want to sin.

guevaraj said:

Without growing in obedience to God to obtain freedom from future sin, made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus dealing with our past sins, you will never come out of future sin to be like Jesus who obeyed the Fourth Commandment. The view that heaven is free for the disobedient sinner who continues to sin by disobeying God even though Jesus' sacrifice made possible our escape from future sin when we obey the Fourth Commandment, is described in the following passage as an invented human "myth" by teachers who don't want to worry about the "truth" in God's word. Instead of listening to God's true message to obey the Fourth Commandment, these teachers are making God what they want Him to be, twisting the scriptures to their destruction. These teachers have abandoned the truth of obeying the Fourth Commandment and replaced God's message with invented human "myths" and many have embraced their lies.

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Salvation is for those who desire to be saved. A person willfully practicing sin does not want to be saved; they want to sin. God will not force anyone to be saved; He saves those who receive Him; it is a gift to them and not a wage. You can't buy your way into salvation by your good behavior. Your behavior grows from what your heart is full of, and you have no power to change that to be saved.

You can't obey the fourth commandment to be saved. The Bible does not say that anywhere. It is spiritual virtue signaling that does not get God's attention in the least. If one obeys the Ten Commandments to be saved, they are still lost, but it is a good thing if they obey because they have been saved.

guevaraj said:

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. (2 Timothy 4:1-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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It is not a sound doctrine to teach salvation by obeying the 4th command saves a person. Salvation is not found in obeying; obeying is found in salvation.

guevaraj said:

Brother, Paul is explaining that the law alone kills for past sin,

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He does not say that. Paul does not say "past sins" he says we are justified. Furthermore, we read in Heb 10:14,
For by one sacrifice, he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. How long is the perfection? Forever! If you receive this by faith, you are perfect forever while still being made Holy.

Why would it be added to the scripture when it is not there? Not only did Jesus die for all our sins, but He died for the sins of the world. (1John 2:2)

guevaraj said:

even if you never sin again. If a child who wants to learn to walk is killed if they fall, no child would ever live long enough to learn to walk. This was our problem with the law; it does not allow growth through practice as one would learn to play the piano. Paul in Galatians explains how Jesus changed our relationship with the law. Judaism had placed their trust in their writing of human laws to protect them from God's law when they needed to put their trust in the practice made possible by Jesus instead of their human laws. It is not the writing of more laws that saves, but Jesus allowing growth through practice is what saves.

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You are disagreeing with scripture, Nowhere does the bible say we are saved by the law. Romans 9:10 makes it clear, Romans 10:9-10 NKJV that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jesus says in John 6:47 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who believes in Me [who adheres to, trusts in, relies on, and has faith in Me] has (now possesses) eternal life.

Jesus also stated 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Do you believe this?

guevaraj said:

The Law without the death of Jesus does not allow a sinner to come out of his death sentence for past sin. Jesus' death made it possible for a sinner to grow out of his sin to obey the law through the practice made possible at the heavenly temple, where Jesus' daily ministry as our High Priest gives us as much forgiveness as needed to grow out of sin. The law became a promise of fulfillment through practice rather than certain death for past sin.

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Our salvation allows us to turn and walk in the opposite direction we used to walk. We walk after the spirit. God's law has been fulfilled in us by Jesus' indwelling and imputed righteousness. If we depend on our efforts to keep the law, we are at the feast without the wedding garment and will be cast out into outer darkness.

If we claim to keep the law (have no sin), we are liars, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8) If we claim we are perfected by Christ's perfection, then we will have no sin counted against us. And we will gladly walk after the spirit because we love Him, trust Him and adhere to Him.

guevaraj said:

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7:25-28 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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Yes, he offered it once and for all, so once and for all, we are made perfect before God, past, present, and future. The only way to be lost is to fall away from Christ. But why would we?

guevaraj said:

Brother, you are wrong about your simplistic understanding of the meaning of Jesus' death on the cross.

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What you teach will not save anyone. We have good news and not legalistic works which do not impress God. We have a father in heaven. A father. Not a task master or a God who says love me or die. That is not love. What God did for us in sending us Jesus was to kill all of our sins in Jesus body on the tree. I have pointed out many scriptures which directly contradict your teachings but so far you have not even addressed them.

As Paul told Titus, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," Do not neglect so great a salvation as this.

guevaraj said:

Jesus did not grant forgiveness for sin on the cross, as evidenced in the following passage. Jesus' sacrifice is what allows Jesus to forgive in the temple daily as our High Priest. Notice in this next passage that the disciples' deaths will take place after Jesus' death, but Jesus says you "will die in your sin", even though their death took place after Jesus' death on the cross, showing that their sins were not forgiven on the cross, but are actually forgiven on the daily High Priestly ministry of Jesus in the heavenly temple for which there is more biblical evidence in the second passage below.

Later Jesus said to them again, “I am going away. You will search for me but will die in your sin. You cannot come where I am going.” (John 8:21 NLT)​

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All sin was paid for on the cross. The gift of eternal life was granted to all, but so many did not accept because they did not believe it. It is sad that people die in their sins when God paid the price for them in Jesus. They do not die in their sins because of their sins, no. They die in their sins because they loved darkness more than light and refused to dwell in God's life giving presence.

The natural arc of men's lives leads to death eternal and unless they receive eternal life, they will eventually die to never rise again. But that is not a payment for their sins, it is the natural result of refusing eternal life in favor of the darkness of sin. If someone throws you a life ring and you swim away from it, you will die, but it is not a punishment, it is a result.

Notice, Jesus said, "die in your sins" he did not say, die because of your sins. Jesus explains it all in John 3:19

guevaraj said:

In support of the above passage, where forgiveness is not given at the cross, is the next passage where forgiveness is obtained every time you pray on the condition that you have forgiven others. In the following passage, God has made His forgiveness also conditional on our forgiving others their sin against us, or God will not forgive us our sin at the time we ask for forgiveness in prayer. Before the Father placed Jesus as our High Priest, you turned to the earthly temple with human priests and animal sacrifices to benefit from God's much forgiveness. Since the Father placed Jesus as our High Priest to give much faster "daily" forgiveness than animal sacrifices, now you pray for forgiveness, which takes place in the true heavenly temple where Jesus serves as our High Priest for the many "daily" forgiveness mentioned in the following passage through prayer, for which the earthly was a shadow, a temporary stand-in copy for the true heavenly temple:

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There is a difference between forgiveness and justification. You seem to conflate the two.

guevaraj said:

Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today the food we need, and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And don’t let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:9-15 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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We ask for forgiveness not to be re-saved, but because we did something against the one we love. A person with an unforgiving spirit has not been born again. Jesus told Peter, "Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
We do not need to be re-saved every time we sin, but we will ask God's pardon and anyone we have wronged, because we love as our Dear Father does.

guevaraj said:

Brother, your statement contradicts the following passage about growing in obedience to the Fourth Commandment. Christians today do not know how to remove past sins by turning to our High Priest Jesus in the true heavenly temple to grow through practice like a child learns to walk. Christians today are self-sabotaging when compared to a child learning to walk, giving up on walking after falling for the first time and deciding that they will not be able to walk no matter how many times they try, so why even try to obey the Fourth Commandment, when a real child will rise again and again until he no longer falls. This learning through practice is how God saves us from future sin for those who obey His Fourth Commandment.

My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did. (1 John 2:1-6 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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It does not contradict this passage. This passage says nothing about being re-saved. This passage does not teach that we must obey His commands in order to know Him. It says that those who know Him obey his commands. There is an important difference there. What you teach contradicts what Christ told Peter. "Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” It contradicts what Hebrews said. Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

It does not say over and over again. Once for all.

It contradicts Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

guevaraj said:

Brother, human beings have said Jesus replaced His Ten Commandments with an Eleventh Commandment when Jesus asks us to obey "all" His Eleven Commandments in the following passage where, having answered with the previous Ten Commandments, Jesus adds "one more thing you haven't done", bringing the total after Him of Eleven Commandments. The following passage tells us that Jesus has given us an Eleventh Commandment with the phrase "one thing you haven't done", after answering the question with: you know "the commandments"! Jesus' answer makes the "one thing you haven't done" an additional Eleventh Commandment. Consistent with us knowing the additional Eleventh Commandment in the new covenant of following Jesus' example. Paul says, Jesus is our model "Spirit" to follow. We are not to follow Judaism's human system of "law" that sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not remove sin in the resulting sons of Hagar, instead of God's will that we be sons of Sarah obeying His previous Ten Commandments as well as the new Eleventh Commandment.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

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Why would you select this one instance where Jesus gives personal counsel to a specific person and disregard all of the ther places He gives personal counsel to specific individuals.

Did he tell Mary to keep the commandments to inherit eternal life? Did he tell Matha to keep the commandments inherit eternal life? How about Zacchaeus? The answer is no, no and no. In fact, Jesus never gave a pat answer to the quastion of salvation. He gave specific answers to specific individuals. Which of his disciples were told to keep the commandments in order to be saved? They were told just to follow Him. And what about the demoniac. After Jesus delivered Him from demon possession, did Jesus then invite Him to join the Pastors class to prepare for baptism. Did he instruct him to keep the Sabbath? No, He did not.

This rich young ruler had a greed problem and Jesus' aim was to get at that problem. Telling him to keep all of the commandments was a set up for that very purpose. Jesus knew the man had never kept all of the commandments and He knew that the man thought He did. Jesus revealed to that man that His commandment keeping was nothing but virtue signaling and not true wroship of God.

Of all the people Christ ministered to, how many did he stop to give a lecture to on the keeping of the sabbath. The Sabbath has become an idol to many sabatarians. Not all by any means, but even one is to many. When we concentrate on a single doctrine to the exclusion of the corss, we are in sore need of a new saviour. This is because our favorite doctrines cannot and will not save us. Only Jesus does that and He does it to the uttermost. Our muking about trying to improve on God's salvation is like taking me a crayon to a Rembrandt painting to improve it.

guevaraj said:

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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What makes you think that Jesus commandments refers to the ten commandments. Have you never thought that perhaps they refer to the commands Jesus gave such as forgive 70X7. Or cast not your pearls before the swine. What makes you think he was refering to the ten commandments? Here is a short list for you to consider.


1. Repent-Matthew 4:17 Humility

2. Follow Me-Matthew 4:19 Meekness

3. Rejoice-Matthew 5:12 Joyfulness

4. Let Your Light Shine-Matthew 5:16 Generosity

5. Honor God's Law-Matthew 5:17-18 Love

6. Be Reconciled-Matthew 5:24-25 Responsibility

7. Do Not Commit Adultery-Matthew 5:29-30 Self-Control

8. Keep Your Word-Matthew 5:37 Truthfulness

9. Go the Second Mile-Matthew 5:38-42 Deference

10. Love Your Enemies-Matthew 5:44 Creativity

11. Be Perfect-Matthew 5:48 Sincerity

12. Practice Secret Disciplines-Matthew 6:1-18 Faith

13. Lay Up Treasures-Matthew 6:19-21 Thriftiness

14. Seek God's Kingdom-Matthew 6:33 Initiative

15. Judge Not-Matthew 7:1 Discernment

16. Do Not Cast Pearls-Matthew 7:6 Discretion

17. Ask, Seek, and Knock-Matthew 7:7-8 Resourcefulness

18. Do Unto Others-Matthew 7:12 Sensitivity

19. Choose the Narrow Way-Matthew 7:13-14 Decisiveness

20. Beware of False Prophets-Matthew 7:15 Alertness

21. Pray For Laborers-Matthew 9:38 Compassion

22. Be Wise as Serpents-Matthew 10:16 Wisdom

23. Fear Not-Matthew 10:26 Boldness

24. Hear God's Voice-Matthew 11:15 Attentiveness

25. Take My Yoke-Matthew 11:29 Obedience

26. Honor Your Parents-Matthew 15:4 Honor/Reverence

27. Beware of Leaven-Matthew 16:6 Virtue

28. Deny Yourself-Luke 9:23 Determination

29. Despise Not Little Ones-Matthew 18:10 Tolerance

30. Go To Offenders-Matthew 18:15 Justice

31. Beware of Covetousness-Luke 12:15 Contentment

32. Forgive Offenders-Matthew 18:21-22 Forgiveness

33. Honor Marriage-Matthew 19:6 Loyalty

34. Be a Servant-Matthew 20:26-28 Availability

35. Be a House of Prayer-Matthew 21:13 Persuasiveness

36. Ask in Faith-Matthew 21:21-22 Patience

37. Bring in the Poor-Luke 14:12-14 Hospitality

38. Render to Caesar-Matthew 22:19-21 Gratefulness

39. Love the Lord-Matthew 22:37-38 Enthusiasm

40. Love Your Neighbor-Matthew 22:39 Gentleness

41. Await My Return-Matthew 24:42-44 Punctuality

42. Take, Eat, and Drink-Matthew 26:26-27 Thoroughness

43. Be Born Again-John 3:7 Security

44. Keep My Commandments-John 14:15 Diligence

45. Watch and Pray-Matthew 26:41 Endurance

46. Feed My Sheep-John 21:15-16 Dependability

47. Baptize My Disciples-Matthew 28:19 Cautiousness

48. Receive God's Power-Luke 24:49 Orderliness

49. Make Disciples-Matthew 28:20 Flexibility

Grafted In said:

Doesn't Scripture instruct us to live each day unto The Lord?
That whatsoever we do, do it unto God.
Doesn't that go beyond observing just one day? Even then, it isn't we, ourselves, but Christ in us who is the only rightiousness in us who makes that happen?
I'm just asking. Can we make ourselves more rightious by observing one day to worship God when Christ in us worships The Father moment by moment for us and in us every moment?

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In the end there is no harm in observing a day for the lord if it is out of a greatful heart for His imputed righteousness. The danger is when we think we can eran merit with God for doing something, no matter what it is. We were created for good works, but they are downstream from our salvation and renewal in the Holy Spirit. These things are God's doings.

Godspeed.