Can anyone explain how the moth got it's owl eyes?

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
At least you now admit that physical random mutations are 100% luck. The luck that drives your fantasy. Like all the sequential mutations that create an eyeball that integrates w the brain, detailed owls eyes on both wings etc
You take for granted that all the mutations that created a complex mammal “just happened “
Whimsical!!!!!

“Natural selection is a process. It modifies physical biological organisms.”
It modifies nothing!!!
Organisms die w NO modification

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
“Natural selection is a process. It modifies physical biological organisms.”
It modifies nothing!!!
Organisms die w NO modification

Why are you incapable of quoting from other people? You look like a madman talking to yourself.

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
Why are you incapable of quoting from other people? You look like a madman talking to yourself.

Are the billions of monkeys typing on a billion typewriters for a billion yrs going to give even one page of legibility?

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
Are the billions of monkeys typing on a billion typewriters for a billion yrs going to give even one page of legibility?

So I take it you've never heard of a rhetorical argument. That tracks with what you've shown on this thread...

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
So I take it you've never heard of a rhetorical argument. That tracks with what you've shown on this thread...

I do need wings, already told you that
Maybe birds don’t according to you
Pretty pompous of you to declare what I do or don’t need

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
I do need wings, already told you that
Maybe birds don’t according to you
Pretty pompous of you to declare what I do or don’t need

Answer the monkey question

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
So I take it you've never heard of a rhetorical argument. That tracks with what you've shown on this thread...

Answer the monkey question

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
I do need wings, already told you that
Maybe birds don’t according to you
Pretty pompous of you to declare what I do or don’t need

But your need is not an environmental pressure. That's the nub of evolution: natural selection works because of environmental pressures on the populations. Humans don't need wings because our method of transportation fits the environment, and since we've created vehicles that do our flying for us, we do not need wings at all.

Birds have evolved wings because that is their niche due to environmental pressures and the only one acting with any form of pomposity is you, which fits with your name, I have to say.

Thurston-howell-III said:
Answer the monkey question

I did. I said: So I take it you've never heard of a rhetorical argument. That tracks with what you've shown on this thread...

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
But your need is not an environmental pressure. That's the nub of evolution: natural selection works because of environmental pressures on the populations. Humans don't need wings because our method of transportation fits the environment, and since we've created vehicles that do our flying for us, we do not need wings at all.

Birds have evolved wings because that is their niche due to environmental pressures and the only one acting with any form of pomposity is you, which fits with your name, I have to say.

I did. I said: So I take it you've never heard of a rhetorical argument. That tracks with what you've shown on this thread...

Ok say I needed wings due to environmental pressure just like birds did
Do I then get them?

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
Ok say I needed wings due to environmental pressure just like birds did
Do I then get them?

No. Because evolution is not *snap your fingers* magic. It occurs through populations via successive generations. Following mammalian evolution, if humans evolved wings, they'd be akin to a bat's wings but... huge.

BCP1928 · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
Ok say I needed wings due to environmental pressure just like birds did
Do I then get them?

No. You're stuck with how you are. If there was serious environmental pressure for wings, then your offspring might develop them, gradually over many generations by modification of their arms.

BCP1928 · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
While ignoring the gist of my post.
What about all the just right mutations that “just happened “?
Coincidence?

Well, the mutations that happened are the ones which happened. Lucky for the species they happened to, I guess. But if different mutations had happened they might have been lucky for the species in some other way, or lucky for another species in the competition for survival. There is nothing necessary about any particular outcome. If you wound back the clock to the beginning of life and let it evolve all over again, you would get an entirely different collection of creatures making up the biosphere. Or, you might get a dead planet--after all, most of the species which have lived on Earth are now extinct.

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
No. Because evolution is not *snap your fingers* magic. It occurs through populations via successive generations. Following mammalian evolution, if humans evolved wings, they'd be akin to a bat's wings but... huge.
View attachment 347001

I know that, but do we eventually get them like the birds did?

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
I know that, but do we eventually get them like the birds did?

When you say "eventually get them like the birds did?" what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean like feathers and such? Because is so, no.

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

I mean wings,

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
When you say "eventually get them like the birds did?" what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean like feathers and such? Because is so, no.

you said the birds needed them and got them, that’s what I mean, would we eventually get them too?

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
I mean wings,

you said the birds needed them and got them, that’s what I mean, would we eventually get them too?

If humans needed them because of environmental pressures, then we would evolve wings.

Since we don't, we won't.

Ophiolite · May 2, 2024

Thurston-howell-III said:
There is not enough time in the universe’s existence for chance to create even one useful protein. I site Douglas Axe on his research.

1. You are mistaken.
2. You have certainly not sited (sic) Douglas Axe. This is how you cite a research article:
Citation: Rousselle M, Simion P, Tilak M-K, Figuet E, Nabholz B, Galtier N (2020) Is adaptation limited by mutation? A timescale-dependent effect of genetic diversity on the adaptive substitution rate in animals. PLoS Genet 16(4):

Not only are useful mutations commonplace, but the above research does a study of the extent to which adaptation is limited by the supply of mutations. Just so you are clear, to carry out the study there need to be enough useful mutations to have a positive influence on adaptation. The reality of useful proteins is implicit in the study, or do you seriously contend the researchers are just making this stuff up in order to . . . . .well what?

If you choose to continue denying the reality of positve mutations, I'll just post research examples. I realise it is highly unlikely you will read them, but others will. The more you deny reality, the more other readers will be given the opprtunity to learn how mistaken you are.

Ophiolite · May 2, 2024

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
If humans needed them because of environmental pressures, then we would evolve wings.

Since we don't, we won't.

Not necessarily. The evolution of wings would be contingent upon the necessary mutations being available to the population. If alternative solutions emerged, via other mutations, to adapt to environmental constraints then we would evolve in a that way. There is more than one way to adapt to any environment. And if no mutations occured that effectively adapted the population to the environment then the population would either move, seeking to "follow the environment", or go extinct.

There would need to be some major transitions to radically different environment before humans got to a point where wings were a viable and accessible adaptation option.

Thurston-howell-III · May 2, 2024

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
If humans needed them because of environmental pressures, then we would evolve wings.

Since we don't, we won't.

Ok so I have you on record saying if we needed them, we would get them.
Very interesting, tell me what would cause the correct mutations to enable this.

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 2, 2024

Ophiolite said:
Not necessarily. The evolution of wings would be contingent upon the necessary mutations being available to the population. If alternative solutions emerged, via other mutations, to adapt to environmental constraints then we would evolve in a that way. There is more than one way to adapt to any environment. And if no mutations occured that effectively adapted the population to the environment then the population would either move, seeking to "follow the environment", or go extinct.

There would need to be some major transitions to radically different environment before humans got to a point where wings were a viable and accessible adaptation option.

Hence why, since we don't face the environmental pressures that would see humans needing to evolve wings, we won't evolve them.

Can anyone explain how the moth got it's owl eyes?

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