Anyone else have a unique eschatology?

FredVB said:

I find so many Christians have a passive sort of faith which uses the rapture understood from the Bible to excuse them from action they should take, it has them answer that God will just take us out, and passages like, "Come out from her!" just refer to God's action to take the believers up from this world, and that they are not going to have to see coming trouble in this world from what they still are involved in, and they do not have to answer to the required stewardship we are here for, that being in the image of God really involves. The Bible is not showing what justifies that sort of faith. We must do things ourselves, being taken out from this world is not for believers now to be away from troubles coming here anymore than earlier believers who saw more troubles than we do, it will be with coming judgment from God on the unrepentant.

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Right, The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven' is a Satanic lie.
It has made millions of Christians complacent and unaware of what God actually does plan for His people.
But God has allowed it to be spread widely, as when the great test of our faith comes; 1 Peter 4:12....the fiery ordeal which has [will] come to test you......
Many will renounce God as they remain on earth when disaster strikes. It will be the fulfilment of Matthew 3:11b-12

I do think believers will be caught up to be with the Lord, when it is time to have believers out of this world when there is actual events in judgment from God on the unrepentant who are still in the world, who will be even worse than unbelievers generally so far. God still hates the destruction to this earth that those here contribute to, and so God hates the excuse from those who say, God is going to destroy this creation anyway. It isn't like that. God's people do not belong here in Mystery Babylon, it is up to them to get out, and what is said about that is not involving believers being caught up, a separate and significantly later occurrence. Being in Mystery Babylon is involving the destruction to this earth. We shouldn't be involved with it. God never said anything that permits people to live the way they now live in civilization. What God will do ultimately in the very end of this world will be creating the earth that is restoration of what it should be, as the new earth described in the Bible. Only unrepentant wicked people perish, and the curse is abolished, and the creatures groaning for it with hope would have it fulfilled and be there, looking as they do for the redemption we should come to. This is what Romans 8 is showing.

FredVB said:

I do think believers will be caught up to be with the Lord

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Sure, it will happen when Jesus Returns, as Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17 tell us.
To where He will be - Jerusalem.

FredVB said:

God's people do not belong here in Mystery Babylon,

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Right, but in the meantime, we have to live in a Babylon-ish world. We must behave as faithful Christians and shine the light of our faith to the world.
As the Prophesies say, the time will come when we will live in our own Christian nation, in all of the Holy Land area. Isaiah 11:11, Ezekiel 40 to 48, Romans 9:24-26, Isaiah 62:1-5,+

Not at all. We who are God's people do not belong in Mystery Babylon. Being here is being a part of the destruction to the world God hates, Revelation 11:18, while the worldly materialism and ungodly lifestyles compromise a large number of believers. Cities were not meant for us, God did not ordain them, and there should already be awareness to come out from them, while groups of believers could plan together and move out to land together, living sustainably with more simplicity remembering stewardship we should have and caring not to be hurting any environments.

FredVB said:

Not at all. We who are God's people do not belong in Mystery Babylon. Being here is being a part of the destruction to the world God hates, Revelation 11:18, while the worldly materialism and ungodly lifestyles compromise a large number of believers. Cities were not meant for us, God did not ordain them, and there should already be awareness to come out from them, while groups of believers could plan together and move out to land together, living sustainably with more simplicity remembering stewardship we should have and caring not to be hurting any environments.

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There is design from God shown, in the beginning of the Bible, right from God's will for how it should be, which was the only thing where it is shown God called it Very Good. It is a model to us still, which we do not have good basis to avoid. Since the fall, what was given to us was still to grow what we could from the ground where it could be good for that, this was actually never rescinded, though so many act like it was. Cities were not given to us and certainly never required of us, there are examples of a need to depart from living in a city, and God's call for that. The model shows, our work should be with growing things for what we need, from the ground, even with some sweat, even while we age and grow old. This is God's will, until we will be taken from here, even with hope for being called up to be with the Lord.

Those who trust in the Lord will live in the holy Land:

Isaiah 41:8-20 But you, Israel My servant – Jacob whom I have chosen, the descendants of My friend Abraham. I have summoned you from the ends of the earth and called you My servants. Have no fear, for I am with you – I am your God. I shall strengthen you with My victorious right hand.
Now, all who defy you will be humiliated. They will be as nothing and will perish. Your enemies will no longer be found.

For I, the Lord your God will help you. Have no fear Jacob, you worm, Israel you maggot, your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. See; I shall make of you a sharp threshing sledge. You will thresh and winnow the land and the wind will carry away all that pollutes the Holy Land. Then you will rejoice in the Lord.
The poor and needy look for water and find none. The Lord will not forsake them, He will open up springs in the hills and pools in the desert. All kinds of trees will flourish in the Land, so that everyone may see and understand that the Lord Himself has created this.

Isaiah 40:27-31 Jacob, why do you complain? You Israel, why do you say: my cause goes unheeded by my God? Do you not know, have you not heard – the Lord does not grow weary or faint and His understanding cannot be fathomed.
The Lord gives strength to the weary and those who trust in Him will soar as on eagles wings, they will run and not feel faint, march on and not be tired.
Ref. REB some verses abridged.

‘Israel My servant, the descendants of Jacob, whom I have chosen. I have summoned My servants from the ends of the earth; out of every nation.’ The Lord’s righteous people, now every faithful Christian, called out of the nations after the Lord’s Day of vengeance. They will be helped and strengthened by their God. As we know from other prophesies and the New Testament, the Lord’s servants also include people of every race, tribe, language and nation. We Christians are His people by faith.

‘Any who oppose them will be destroyed, by God’s victorious Right Hand’. The Lord Jesus will instigate this judgement/punishment of the nations; Psalms 83, Psalms 110:5-6, Luke 3:16-17, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Micah 7:10, by sending fire from the sun.

‘Jacob you worm, Israel you maggot’ The Lord has a sense of humour! The people of all the 12 tribes are unworthy, but God will fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs through their descendants who believe in God by faith; Galatians 3:26-29 and all who have accepted the Salvation offered by Jesus.

‘The storm wind sent by the Lord, will remove all that pollutes the holy Land’, This refers to the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a terrible worldwide devastation by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

‘The Lord will provide water and the Land will flourish, all will acknowledge the Lords hand in this’. Once again it will be all habitable and fertile. Ezekiel 25:5-7, Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 25:9, Amos 9:13, Isaiah 51:3, Isaiah 49:19

“The poor and needy”, This is a description of His people, when they first enter the Land. ‘The Lord will give them strength, they will march into their heritage and not be weary’. Psalms 107:1-43, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jer. 31:7-14, Psalms 68:24-27

Be patient, Israel, God is in control. Psalms 37:5, Jeremiah 23:24
Put your trust in the Lord, He will help and strengthen you. 2 Corinthians 6:1-2

Spiritual Jew said:

I agree. If someone has a view that no one else has, then that raises a red flag because God doesn't reveal truth to just one person.

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Not usually. But it’s a good thing no one was there to give Moses this advice. Or Jonah. Or Daniel. Or…

Petros2015 said:

My apologies, I will edit my earlier post.

The Roman and Eastern Catholic traditions tend to treat Revelations more as a spiritual event, or as something which has already been brought to pass (i.e. the fall of Jerusalem, 666 representing Nero - there is a strong argument for this), though I definitely see hallmarks of fulfillment in current or potential events (i.e. the tanks) for some of it's passages. "the sky rolling back like a scroll" or "something like a burning mountain cast into the sea" sound suspiciously like nuclear or asteroid strike events John would not have been familiar with, that I don't think have been seen yet, but certainly could be. I grew up on "the Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey, but also grew out of it, I suppose. I am not anticipating a rapture, but wouldn't say no if invited, or be too disheartened if not. "Thy will be done." I can certainly foresee a cataclysm or two with or without Christ's return.

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By Eastern Catholic do you mean the Eastern orthodox and Oriental orthodox and Assyrian churches or do you mean the various sui juris Eastern Catholic churches subordinate to, or at least, in communion, with the Pope of Rome?

I do naturally regard the Orthodox Churches as comprising the authentic Catholic Church, but since eastern Catholics regard the word Uniate as offensive I feel, we have to be careful to differentiate them from us, and to clarify whether we are speaking about those churches, or about the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.

The Liturgist said:

By Eastern Catholic do you mean the Eastern orthodox and Oriental orthodox and Assyrian churches or do you mean the various sui juris Eastern Catholic churches subordinate to, or at least, in communion, with the Pope of Rome?

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I suppose by Eastern Catholic I meant to be referring to 'those Catholics not in communion with Rome, generally found to the east of it' and by Roman Catholic "those in communion with Rome". Eastern Orthodox is the only side I can speak for/of; I know there have been branches and sub-branches and little fiddly bits here and there at various Ecumenical councils and other points of history, but I generally don't pay them too much mind. I will say that before I knew much of anything about the Catholic experience, I met and worked with a man from Africa who had the spirit of Christ about everything he did; his tradition was from the Coptic Catholic Church, and he followed it well. Syoum was his name. Brilliant, and all the fruits of the Spirit. I have no idea about the current dogma differences between Coptic and anything else; nor need I. Fruit speaks for itself when you bite into it

It is simple if we see that God really likes if we will follow God's highest will. This includes what is shown in the beginning of the Bible for us, it doesn't include us having cities. Ultimately God just has to tell us to get out.

dwb001 said:

Just that.

I am looking to see if there are people with a unique eschatology AND are open to changing their minds.

I put a bit of a twist on the end but there you go. I can't be the only person with a unique (in my opinion) eschatology and still approach eschatology with an open mind.

My particular flavor of eschatology is pre-trib post-mill rapture. Who out there is also an odd duck?

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My eschatology is based on the fact that there is no such thing as a temporary "church age" I base that on the following scriptures.

Isaiah 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.


Daniel 2:44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”


Daniel 7:
13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,
and I saw One like the Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence.
14And He was given dominion,
glory, and kingship,
that the people of every nation and language
should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one
that will never be destroyed.

Ephesians 3:20Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 1:23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
“All flesh is like grass,
and all its glory like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord stands forever.”
And this is the word that was proclaimed to you.



Revelation 14:6Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.

Revelation 14:And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

I'm presently on the fence between premillennialism and amillennialism.

There are things that keep in the premill camp: the fact that Satan is still deceiving the world, and I find it difficult to accept that the circumstances surrounding modern Israel are mere coincidence.

However, I will admit that Revelation 20 seems to lend itself to the amillennial position as the most straightforward interpretation.

Also, despite my premillennial leaning, I'm not committed to the idea the Millennium is a literal 1,000 years.

So, I don't want to rule out either side.

9Rock9 said:

I'm presently on the fence between premillennialism and amillennialism.

There are things that keep in the premill camp: the fact that Satan is still deceiving the world, and I find it difficult to accept that the circumstances surrounding modern Israel are mere coincidence.

However, I will admit that Revelation 20 seems to lend itself to the amillennial position as the most straightforward interpretation.

Also, despite my premillennial leaning, I'm not committed to the idea the Millennium is a literal 1,000 years.

So, I don't want to rule out either side.

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There are a lot of uncertainties, and I know better than to claim certainty about much of anything, and especially eschatology, on which so many have divisive positions. Still the idea of Christ returning and reigning a thousand years on this earth appears to be in the future and not conforming to history up to now that we have seen. In fact the most certain thing I see, with Mystery Babylon described with so many things corresponding to descriptions in Isaiah 24, is that collapse is still ahead, it will happen soon, and it is not just one city, which is not so consequential to scriptural prophecy of the end times, it would be all cities generally, which the people of God do not belong in and they should come out from. And time will be running out. Christ will return after one who in prophecy is described as a beast is deceiving almost all on the earth, and there is nothing that could deceive so many as almost all on earth at the time like promises from that deceiving one to rebuild civilization from what is left, while there would be nothing but godlessness with that, but so many will be deceived and follow that one. God's people should live very sustainably with good stewardship and never be deceived to follow any back to having civilization. Christ will return in battle against that one and the army of his followers.

My position on what sequence happens in eschatology has evolved, and maybe is yet evolving. I come to this with excluding what really does not work, ultimately, and am led to a narrower sequence of events that way.

After the collapse, all who are in the world, besides some of God's people who came out as they were told to and are living separately in the way God meant for God's people to live with the responsible ways, will follow the one who makes promises that will actually lead to just great ungodliness, and the rebuilding from all the collapse, which is promised, is what would seduce all in the world to follow that one. Then finally with much godless unity built that one will lead all his forces from that unity against God's people who are those in Jerusalem now calling on Yeshua who is Jesus with recognition of him as the savior and promised Messiah, and he will return on the flying creature he rides though he could just come on his own with as much power, with hosts of heaven following him, to destroy the armies coming against those in Jerusalem, and he will return there, to reign and under him will there be restoration of the earth to approach what it should have been. The new earth that the redeemed come to later with all creation that groaned for that will totally be what the earth should have been since the very good creation at the beginning. The unrepentant will not be there, being excluded then.

Those who have set their eschatological views to standard ones they learn in fellowship or in church somewhere will tend to dismiss needed information of what is happening in this world like the depletion of important resources, climate change, and extinction of many species of insects and other animals among wildlife, with destruction of more natural environments, and more things threatening ongoing civilization. But promises for civilization, or its cities, to continue on, are not there in biblical prophecy. Our current administration in this country is very pointedly reckless, while changing our country from democratic processes toward totalitarianism, and increasing aggression to some other countries with not as much strength. This should have our conscious attention, to not just let it go further.

All of the world will change very suddenly and dramatically, on the forthcoming Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7
Cities will be destroyed, but some of the survivors at least, will live in cities again and after the Millennium: in the new Jerusalem, Revelation 21-22

I would describe my eschatological framework as quite distinctive, particularly because I believe it aligns more closely with biblical accuracy than any other system I’ve encountered. This conviction is grounded in the foundational understanding that Scripture points to an eschatological figure intimately connected with both Elijah and the prophet foretold by Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-18). Recognising this link has helped clarify many of the Bible's more challenging parables and prophetic messages.

My understanding deepened significantly as I continued to study Scripture from this perspective. While I’ve refined and adjusted specific interpretations over time, the core of my belief has remained intact. One notable shift came when a member here pointed out the lack of biblical support for the so-called “Star of David.” Instead, this symbol more closely resembles the star of Remphan mentioned in Acts 7:43—an emblem associated with false worship and the occult. This insight prompted a deeper exploration into the origins of the modern state of Israel and the identity of the Palestinians. I came to view modern Israel as a political entity masquerading as the fulfilment of divine prophecy, without biblical substantiation for being a nation “blessed by Jesus.” Moreover, the ongoing experiences of Palestinians raise important ethical and theological questions regarding Christian Zionism. This realisation further affirmed the validity of my eschatological perspective and marked a bittersweet turning point in my revelations.

Reevaluating traditional eschatological doctrines in light of these insights led me to conclude that dispensational interpretations of Revelation are not only flawed but deceptively harmful. For instance, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine lacks any real foundation in the teachings of Christ or the apostles, resting entirely on speculative notions, such as the rebuilding of a physical third temple and the continued "prophetic" role of ethnic Israel. If this were to be the case, it would require the removal or elimination of Palestinians, irrespective of whether they are Christian or Muslim. Dispensationalism, as widely known today, is a relatively modern theology, largely propagated by Cyrus I. Scofield through his Scofield Reference Bible, which played a key role in popularising rapture theology within modern evangelicalism.

That said, my understanding of Revelation is not complete. It is focused specifically on the arrival of the Elijah figure who, according to Jesus (Matthew 17:11; Malachi 4:5-6; Acts 3:21-22), must come to restore all things before the appearance of the Antichrist. Unlike others, I do not claim to fully understand the entirety of Revelation, particularly the nature of the Millennial reign or how the final events unfold. My framework is especially concerned with identifying the precursor signs that mark the beginning of the end-times era—how it starts, what initiates the final sequence of events, and how God raises up prophetic voices to lead the faithful into the restorative process. In that regard, it is a perspective of beginnings more than conclusions, emphasising restoration and preparation over speculation about end-stage timelines.

I summarize Revelation with: Look out! It’s all going to happen and we should be aware and prepared for it. Be not in the dark as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:3-4
Actually the first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11 and Zechariah 6:1-7
Proved by the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then.

The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.
Then the Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3
The proof that we ARE in the end times, is all the time periods as given in the Bible up to the conquest of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and from then until today: adds up to 5991 years, +/- 1 or 2 years.

People can argue against the truth of mankind being given 6000 years to rule themselves and then Jesus will rule for 1000 years, however; this decreed time can be plainly discerned from the Bible. The Creation as per Genesis 1, models this period.
The fact is that there were exactly 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus, so it is logical to assume there will be 2000 years of this Christian era to complete, which will finally demonstrate our inability to self rule. The reign of Jesus for the final 1000 years will show that His rule of benevolent dictatorship is the best form of Government.

I think there is reason, that I don't see any showing otherwise, that all who are in the world, besides some of God's people who came out as they were told to and are living separately in the way God meant for God's people to live with the responsible ways, will follow the one who makes promises that will actually lead to just great ungodliness, and the rebuilding from all the collapse, which is promised, is what would seduce all in the world to follow that one. Then finally with much godless unity built that one will lead all his forces from that unity against God's people who are those in Jerusalem now calling on Yeshua who is Jesus with recognition of him as the savior and promised Messiah, who returns then to subdue the enemies and to reign from there.