Which Commandments?

[doubtingmerle]

To Merle in post #218, I will reply more later but I want to address what is taken as “easy believism”. St. John in his 1st epistle clearly illustrates in his 1st epistle that there are commitments to striving to do good ( 1 John 1:5-10, 1 John 2:1-5).

Ah, so 1 John contradicts the verses that say faith is all you need.

St. Paul does not preach an easy believism either ( Romans 11:22, all of Colossians 1 in particular Colossians 1:9-14, Colossians 1:23, Galatians 6 etc,).

That doesn't change the fact that verses like Romans 4:5 say it is by faith alone.

It is upon keeping the commandments ( John 14:15-18) as best we can that grace covers are shortcomings.

Ah, do the best you can, and God will overlook human shortcomings. That is the opposite of what several others have said here.

Let's suppose you are right, and all we need to do is keep certain commandments the best we can. That leads to a natural follow-up question, the one that started this thread. Which commandments?

 

[Lukaris]

I believe the commandments as given in Matthew 19:16-19 & Romans 13:8-10 are the same ultimately. It all comes down to love of God & neighbor. The Lord ( as a man a Jew) was speaking to a young man who was a Jew. The great commandment to love God was a given ( Deuteronomy 6:1-9, in particular Deuteronomy 6:5) from which the other commandments derive. St. Paul is preaching the kingdom of God & salvation to the Gentiles; they do not have the foundation of knowing to love God as a given. The spirit & basic human conduct of the commandments given by the Lord & those given by Paul are consistent with how they preach.

Once the Gentiles know God (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, the commandment to love God ( Deuteronomy 6:5) becomes foundational to the commandments. This ties in with great commandments given by the Lord in Matthew 22:36-40. Still, this within the Lord’s preaching to the Jews in scripture. This was preached to the early church as mirrored in the ancient church manual of the Didache.

 

[dcalling]

Whew! I guess it is a good thing I don't hate, huh?

Are you sure you don't hate? Never hate before and you can guaranty that you will not hate in the future? You never got angry when someone cut you off, never angry at Trump, Biden or other people who offend you in other ways?

With all due respect, I once was where you are now.

I know we were at each other's position before.

I thought I was free. But I never really knew what it was like to be free until I abandoned my beliefs in a God.

Just curious, when you say you thought you were free, what is that you thought you were freed from?

And now you say you are free, is the afraid of hell the only thing you are free from now after you became an atheist?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Are you sure you don't hate? Never hate before and you can guaranty that you will not hate in the future? You never got angry when someone cut you off, never angry at Trump, Biden or other people who offend you in other ways?

Ah, you would like to explore my inner self. You think perhaps there are a lot of cobwebs inside.

By contrast, you speak of your own self like this:

We have to follow commandments, but that is not because we have to follow it, it is because the believe in God that make us want to follow it. i.e. you don't kill not because the law says you don't kill, but because your heart won't let you kill.

Yes, it is called love, and it is from God.

So are Christians inherently good, just naturally doing what is loving, while unbelievers are trapped with an evil mind? I started a new thread to discuss this. See Are Christians better people on the inside? | Christian Forums

 

[dcalling]

Ah, you would like to explore my inner self. You think perhaps there are a lot of cobwebs inside.

I am responding to you statement that "Whew! I guess it is a good thing I don't hate, huh?"

and I am simply point out God's standards, and want to see how you judge yourself vs the law of God.

By contrast, you speak of your own self like this:

I also been very blunt that I can't totally follow God's law, just like you.

So are Christians inherently good, just naturally doing what is loving, while unbelievers are trapped with an evil mind? I started a new thread to discuss this. See Are Christians better people on the inside? | Christian Forums

I have said multiple times, Christians are not better than unbelievers in anyway (some might act worse than unbelievers). The only advantage Christians have is that Christians knows we are bad (vs most unbelievers think they are good), and that we are saved by God and not by ourselves.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I believe the commandments as given in Matthew 19:16-19 & Romans 13:8-10 are the same ultimately. It all comes down to love of God & neighbor.

As I said before:

Nothing is mystifying about practicing basic courtesy toward people. Is this your answer? Just treat people courteously, and you will go to heaven? Or is there more involved?
​

Some places you seem to indicate that all you need is love, and some places you seem to indicate you also need things such as belief. Please give me a list of all the things you think are required to go to heaven.

​

 

[klutedavid]

As I said before:

Nothing is mystifying about practicing basic courtesy toward people. Is this your answer? Just treat people courteously, and you will go to heaven? Or is there more involved?
​

Some places you seem to indicate that all you need is love, and some places you seem to indicate you also need things such as belief. Please give me a list of all the things you think are required to go to heaven.

​

Here are the commandments.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[doubtingmerle]

and I am simply point out God's standards

You are? I seem to have missed it. In fact, that is the whole point of this thread. What standard must one follow to get to heaven?

You now throw in "Don't hate" as one of the things we need to follow. That's odd. If "Don't hate" is a requirement, why is it not in the list that Jesus gave?

So in the text quoted in the OP, Jesus meant to tell the man, "Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself (and don't ever think a hateful thought, etc.).

What all is in the fine print?

I also been very blunt that I can't totally follow God's law, just like you.

I wear garments of mixed fabrics and eat bacon. Are these a violation of God's laws?

It is hard to tell if I am violating God's laws if you cannot tell me where I can find a list of God's laws.

I have said multiple times, Christians are not better than unbelievers in anyway (some might act worse than unbelievers).

I agree.

The only advantage Christians have is that Christians knows we are bad (vs most unbelievers think they are good),

And how is it good to "know we are bad"?

That statement does not do much for one's self esteem. Are you saying God wants us to have low self esteem?

...and that we are saved by God and not by ourselves.

I am not asking who saves us. I am asking what we need to do to go to heaven. Is there anything we need to do, or do we just sit back, relax and enjoy the ride?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Here are the commandments.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Ah, so we finally have a list of the requirements. The complete list consists of:

1. believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ
2. love one another
​

Is that your final answer?

Why did Jesus give the man in the OP a list of six commandments instead of this list? Matthew left out "believe in the name of his son." One wonders why he left that requirement off of his list. Was his list inadequate?

And what exactly does it mean to believe in the name of his Son?

 

[coffee4u]

In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)​

This reply was to a Jewish man. At that time before the crucifixion they were under the Mosaic law which included the ten commandments.
However nobody could keep God's law. This was partly why it was given, to show mankind that he could not keep the law by his own strength that no one was good enough, that all sin.
Once a man acknowledges that he was a sinner who needed God he would turn to God rather than his own strength. This is because at the root of most sin is pride and to acknowledge himself as a sinner without strength is a place of humility. To fall on your face before God saying I am a wretched sinner means putting all pride aside.

The man Jesus was talking to already had a god and it was money. This is why Jesus told him to sell all he had, not because this is what he wants everyone to do, but for that particular man, money was what his pride was clinging to. For another person the answer would have been different. Jesus knew the man would not come to that place of humility while he kept his wealth.

​

Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven?

None, because you can't. If any man could keep God's commandments he would not have had to come and be nailed to a cross.
We get to heaven through faith in Jesus.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
But not through our own striving because then we are back at point 1 again. Trying to be good through our own strength.

God says it is a gift
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast
Otherwise people could boast about how good they are which goes right back to point one yet again -pride.

We gain God's gift of grace by faith.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
It is that simple. People try and complicate it. ​

 

[doubtingmerle]

We gain God's gift of grace by faith.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
It is that simple. People try and complicate it. ​

Ah, so we have a new list to consider:

1. Declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord.”
2. Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
​

Is this your final answer?

So "Do not murder" makes no difference in whether one goes to heaven? One can either murder or not murder, either way, he will still go to heaven as long as he keeps the two commands on your list?

And "Do not steal", "Do not bear false witness" and "Love your neighbor" make no difference in whether one goes to heaven? One can rape, pillage and plunder, and he will still go to heaven, as long as he follows your 2 step program?

 

[dcalling]

You are? I seem to have missed it. In fact, that is the whole point of this thread. What standard must one follow to get to heaven?

You now throw in "Don't hate" as one of the things we need to follow. That's odd. If "Don't hate" is a requirement, why is it not in the list that Jesus gave?

1 John 3:15 "Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him".

So in the text quoted in the OP, Jesus meant to tell the man, "Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself (and don't ever think a hateful thought, etc.).

What all is in the fine print?


I wear garments of mixed fabrics and eat bacon. Are these a violation of God's laws?

No one can obey the law to the fullest.

It is hard to tell if I am violating God's laws if you cannot tell me where I can find a list of God's laws.


I agree.

And how is it good to "know we are bad"?

If we don't know you are sick, we won't seek a doctor. If we don't know our shortcomings, we can't improve.

That statement does not do much for one's self esteem. Are you saying God wants us to have low self esteem?

self esteem has nothing to do with one's abilities or loving heart. It is better to have low self esteem and got to heaven than confidently go to hell.

I am not asking who saves us. I am asking what we need to do to go to heaven. Is there anything we need to do, or do we just sit back, relax and enjoy the ride?

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …” (Acts 16:31 NIV)

 

[doubtingmerle]

1 John 3:15 "Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him".

You ignored the question. This is the question you were responding to:

You now throw in "Don't hate" as one of the things we need to follow. That's odd. If "Don't hate" is a requirement, why is it not in the list that Jesus gave?
​

OK, so you won't tell us why Jesus left "Don't hate" out of the list. What else did he leave out of the list? Where can I find a complete list?

No one can obey the law to the fullest.

No one gets 100% on the bar exam. That does not mean there are no lawyers.

I am not asking what you need to do to obey the law to the fullest. I am asking what you need to do to go to heaven.

If we don't know our shortcomings, we can't improve.

You say this in response to:

How is it good to "know we are bad"?​

I am fine with knowing our shortcomings. But knowing our shortcomings does not mean we are bad.

If you were giving a job review to a model employee, and everything he did was excellent except for one minor shortcoming, would you tell this employee he is a bad employee and not worthy of working here?

Can you honestly not see the difference between saying, "You are a great employee and here is one thing we can work on" or saying "You are a bad, worthless employee who does not deserve to work here"?

self esteem has nothing to do with one's abilities or loving heart.

I disagree. It is well known that self esteem affects our abilities.

And your words do not do much for our self esteem.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …” (Acts 16:31 NIV)

Sigh. Now we come up with yet another list.

1. Believe in the Lord Jesus.
​

Is this your final answer? Is this the full list?

Are you saying that murdering or not murdering makes no difference as to whether we go to heaven?

Are you saying that one can rape, pillage and plunder with reckless abandon, as long as he believes, and he will still go to heaven?

 

[klutedavid]

Ah, so we finally have a list of the requirements. The complete list consists of:

1. believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ
2. love one another
​

Is that your final answer?

Yes.

Why did Jesus give the man in the OP a list of six commandments instead of this list? Matthew left out "believe in the name of his son." One wonders why he left that requirement off of his list. Was his list inadequate?

The rich young ruler asked Jesus what he had to inherit eternal life. Jesus gave the young fellow a list of commands plus an extra command to throw away his wealth. Then Jesus said 'come follow me'.

Of course the rich young ruler went away sad because he treasured his wealth. The apostles were surprised that even though the rich young man obeyed the set of commandments. That salvation was not available to him.

The key point is that we cannot save ourselves by our behavior.

Now read what Jesus says to the apostles.

Luke 18:26-27
They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

 

[doubtingmerle]

Yes.

Ah, we finally have someone who will give us a final answer. So we find that there are two and only two things that are necessary:

1. Declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord.”
2. Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.​

Notice that this list does not include any restriction on murdering or any requirement to love. In fact, in the post to which you responded I had asked:

So "Do not murder" makes no difference in whether one goes to heaven? One can either murder or not murder, either way, he will still go to heaven as long as he keeps the two commands on your list?​

And you did not answer. So you already know my follow up question. Since your list--your final list--in no way excludes murder, and since you do not answer the question asking for a clarification if murder is excluded, I will assume that for you, murder, rape, pillaging and plundering are not excluded. One can do those things all with reckless abandon and still go to heaven.

A lot of Christians will disagree with you.

The key point is that we cannot save ourselves by our behavior.

Then please start a thread discussing whether we can save ourselves by our behavior. The question of this thread is what we need to do to go to heaven. Apparently "refrain from murdering" and "love your neighbor" are not on your list.

Now read what Jesus says to the apostles.

Luke 18:26-27
They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

In context, Jesus seems to be saying that the rich man could not do the behaviors he needed to do to go to heaven, but God would help him do those things, so he could go to heaven.

 

[dcalling]

You ignored the question. This is the question you were responding to:

You now throw in "Don't hate" as one of the things we need to follow. That's odd. If "Don't hate" is a requirement, why is it not in the list that Jesus gave?
​

OK, so you won't tell us why Jesus left "Don't hate" out of the list. What else did he leave out of the list? Where can I find a complete list?

"Thou knowest the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, defraud not, honor thy father and mother.’”" Mark 10:19.

1 John 3:15 "Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him".

if we know a=b, b=c
then a=c. The transitive law.

I am a bit surprised that you can't see this, either you lack logical reasoning (very unlikely) or you are trolling here.

No one gets 100% on the bar exam. That does not mean there are no lawyers.

I am not asking what you need to do to obey the law to the fullest. I am asking what you need to do to go to heaven.



You say this in response to:

How is it good to "know we are bad"?​

I am fine with knowing our shortcomings. But knowing our shortcomings does not mean we are bad.

If you were giving a job review to a model employee, and everything he did was excellent except for one minor shortcoming, would you tell this employee he is a bad employee and not worthy of working here?

Can you honestly not see the difference between saying, "You are a great employee and here is one thing we can work on" or saying "You are a bad, worthless employee who does not deserve to work here"?


I disagree. It is well known that self esteem affects our abilities.

And your words do not do much for our self esteem.


Sigh. Now we come up with yet another list.

1. Believe in the Lord Jesus.
​

Is this your final answer? Is this the full list?

Are you saying that murdering or not murdering makes no difference as to whether we go to heaven?

Are you saying that one can rape, pillage and plunder with reckless abandon, as long as he believes, and he will still go to heaven?

If you claim to believe in Jesus, yet you willingly commit murder (or hate your brother which is the same), you don't really believe Him. Make distinction between mans outward appearance and his heart.

And if you truly believe in Jesus, God's spirit will enter you and change you to be better, and not wanting to do those things that is evil to God (you might still do them out of impulse but won't be planned).

 

[cvanwey]

@doubtingmerle I don't know about you, but reading through this thread is becoming quite frustrating. I've lost count of how many times the goalposts have been moved by Christisans.

 

[dcalling]

@doubtingmerle I don't know about you, but reading through this thread is becoming quite frustrating. I've lost count of how many times the goalposts have been moved by Christisans.

It is the same with me (not sure about other Christians), specifically seeing how @doubtingmerle ignores basic logic on transitive law.

 

[cvanwey]

It is the same with me (not sure about other Christians), specifically seeing how @doubtingmerle ignores basic logic on transitive law.

Sounds like you are stating that to be chosen by God, and granted into heaven, you must believe, worship, and also never willfully commit adultery, murder, theft, bear false witness, fraud, and dishonor your parents?

 

[dcalling]

Sounds like you are stating that to be chosen by God, and granted into heaven, you must believe, worship, and also never willfully commit adultery, murder, theft, bear false witness, fraud, and dishonor your parents?

All people will have done that at some stage of time, so that is not what I am stating.

Also God chooses by His own will, not what we have done. We became a different person once touched by His spirit (my own interpretation of the Bible, as not all Christian believe in per-destination).