? for the Torah-observant

[Mordechai18]

In the mitzvah regarding the keeping of Shabbat, G-d doesn't merely tell us to cease all work on the 7th day; the full commandement is to work 6 days and rest on the 7th. How many of us actually make certain to work 6 days a week out of obedience to this law?
For example, do you make certain if you have a totally restful Sunday, to do some small piece of manual labor or paperwork from your profession?

[Hix]

According to Halacha and Oral Law the Shabbat is a day of rest from the same thing that HaShem rested for, creation. So, on Shabbat we are to abstain from things that create something else. So on Sunday if you came and posted once here at CF you would have kept the Mitzvah I guess ;)

[Henaynei]

According to Halacha and Oral Law the Shabbat is a day of rest from the same thing that HaShem rested for, creation. So, on Shabbat we are to abstain from things that create something else. So on Sunday if you came and posted once here at CF you would have kept the Mitzvah I guess ;)
GO HIX!!! WUW-HU!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_202.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)YIPPIE!! http://forum.witz.de/images/smilies/rosahuepfer.gif

It makes me SO happy to hear some one who understands Shabbat!!!

[Mordechai18]

I guess I have a second question, then:
Are there any Torah-observant folks around here who aren't also Talmud-observant?
(Without debating the relative merits of each stance in this thread.)

Will discussions here end up being exercises in frustration for me (and you) if I don't hold the Talmud in very high regard? (Or at least don't afford it full legislative authority?)

[iitb]

I guess I have a second question, then:
Are there any Torah-observant folks around here who aren't also Talmud-observant?
(Without debating the relative merits of each stance in this thread.)

Will discussions here end up being exercises in frustration for me (and you) if I don't hold the Talmud in very high regard? (Or at least don't afford it full legislative authority?)There are a couple(Charlesinflorida immediately comes to mind). I think I fall somewhere in the middle. ;)

[Henaynei]

My husband and I hold the Oral Traditions to be critical to the success of Torah observance. But even we recognize that there may be things in Talmud that run contrary to keeping Torah at times - when Shavuot is comes to mind..... I'm sure there are others.

I also recognize that others may not hold to the letter of my views!! No one holds to the letter of G-d's views and I certainly can't stand as tall as He!! LOL

[Pray4Isrel]

I guess I have a second question, then:
Are there any Torah-observant folks around here who aren't also Talmud-observant?
(Without debating the relative merits of each stance in this thread.)

Will discussions here end up being exercises in frustration for me (and you) if I don't hold the Talmud in very high regard? (Or at least don't afford it full legislative authority?)
I am still learning where I fall when it comes to this.
While I am observant to the best of my convictions, I still am not as observant as many others here. I can say, however, that I am striving and actively growing in Torah-Observancy but I honestly doubt I will become Talmud-observant.
I wouldn't say that any dicussions would end up in frustration unless the tone of the discussions were to become personal attacks.
I do quite well discussing with people rather than people telling me who I am in their eyes. Casting judgement is only appropriate when it falls in line with Scriptural standards, not out of selfish arrogance... sorry, that's a "sermon" for another time! :D

[Charlesinflorida]

I guess I have a second question, then:
Are there any Torah-observant folks around here who aren't also Talmud-observant?
(Without debating the relative merits of each stance in this thread.)

Will discussions here end up being exercises in frustration for me (and you) if I don't hold the Talmud in very high regard? (Or at least don't afford it full legislative authority?)

Hello Mordechai,

We have not met or conversed. I am Charles in Florida.

My position on Talmud is that it has great value in helping us undersand some things in Torah from an ancient Jewish view, and provides us with some historical insights. It may also provide us, in places, tangible ways of exercising Torah observance. I would not on the other hand consider it inspired, or egual to Torah as many others do. I would say that many of the teachings of Yeshua and Paul were in opposition to Talmud, especially where it's hedges and laws were developed to errect a wall of separation (through doctrine) between Jews and Gentiles. As you probably know before the Mishna/Talmud, there was no special ritual or process for gentiles to enter into the covenants of Israel. All that was required was faith in the God of Israel and willingness to follow the instructions of God, which is Torah. One of the most significant points of the work of YTeshua, and the entire New testament is the tearing down of the wall of separation which set ethnicity as the checkpoint for inclusion into the coveants God made THROUGH ISRAEL to all the peoples of the earth.

So I use Talmud as a reference, but agree with it's commentary or decisions only to the end that they bing light to the scriptures, where they uphold the Torah and agree with the Halacha of Yeshua the Messiah.

In the second temple period, Judaism and later post destruction Christianty split completely and went separate directions, and neither one was the vessel carrying the complete truth by itself. The truth was left behind hidden in the Toah and affirmed in the Gospels. But the Rabbinate made accellerated strides in making salvation and coveant inclusion exclusive to the Jews (by ethnicity), requiring gentiles to be proselytised and circumcised to enter, by ritually changing their appearant ethnicity and with it their covenant status. (Most of those doctrines are encapsulated with Talmud) The Gentile believers wanted to hijack salvation and the blessing of Israel for themselves and attempted to do so, by forming doctrines that countered all Jewish doctrine; abolishing Torah, renouncing connection to Judaism, new feast days, new Sabbath on Sunday, Claiming replacement theology, writing the Jews off as rejected christ killers, ect.

Meanwhile right down the middle, was this small group of misfits made up of both Jews and Gentiles who all understood that it was faith in God and His Messiah that brought us into the covenant, making us Israel or Gods family and which brought our justification before God; and that the new life that grew up in us was outlined in Gods law, to which all covenant memeber are to be obedient. That small group (distrusted and hated by both Judaim and christainity) is of course Messianic Judaism. And that is where many of us sit, waiting for the return of Messiah.

CIF

[sojeru]

Greetings to all,

May all who read this be in good health, in Peace and prospering most copisously; all thanks be to HaShem, Most blessed is He!

I know that hardly any have the knowledge of this, however, christians and Messianics read a talmud almost everyday...
How?
it is the Mishna of Marqos(Mark) and the Gemara of Luqas(Luke_ I and II Luqas [acts])
The Gemara can never be read alone, it must always be read with the mishna.
However, the Mishna can be read alone.

Those who know how Talmud is organized it is in this structure Mishna (p'[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]- literal) and Gemara (Remetz- hint/allegory)
Pirkei Avot 1:1 (mishna) goes in exact accordance with Mishna Morqos 1:1 and Luqas alef : 1-4 expounds on Marqos 1:1.

It is my belief that if Anti-Semetism grew to a state that the world obliterated what they have knowledge of the Talmud to be, that the Rabbis (if they have knowledge of it) can reconstruct the Talmud by these 3 books (Marqos, 1 and 2 Luqas)

Mark and Luke are only a condensed version of the Talmud- the Talmud before the fall of the Temple- thus these nazarean writtings are superior (partially) to the full version.
The "NT" even mentions Hillel,

Your Excellency Adon "Hix",
if you read this, can you tell me where Hillel is found in the "NT"
*note* pay attention to the way i write the next line***

This is a HINT for you, his name is mentioned in a list.

and Your Excellency Adon Mordechai, what you proposed in the 1st post is all fine and dandy for gentiles, However, never for a Jew.
Sunday rest is alright in the mind of a Jew for the gentile, but not in the mind of a Jew for the Jew.

So if you wish to rest on sunday, that is fine- we have no quarrel, but this is not to be imposed on any Jew. And the Gentiles will still have a place in the world to come- at least some.

shalom u'brachot
Antonio

[ShirChadash]

I guess I have a second question, then:
Are there any Torah-observant folks around here who aren't also Talmud-observant?
(Without debating the relative merits of each stance in this thread.)

Will discussions here end up being exercises in frustration for me (and you) if I don't hold the Talmud in very high regard? (Or at least don't afford it full legislative authority?)
:wave:
We are learning and endeavoring to be as Torah-observant as we may, moving forward slowly and embracing what we feel led to... but we are not Talmud-observant at this point and will likely never "fully" be, as far as I can see. We see value in the Talmud, intend to consider and weigh it and much of it we will probably embrace. But as in all things, we believers are called to glean the pearls, so to speak.

I've never felt uncomfortable or frustrated here... I like hearing the viewpoints of people who are coming from both "sides". And actually, I think that most Messianics here are not 100% sold-out observant to Talmud. :confused:

[Hix]

lol good, I would hate to think that opinions on matters such as these would make ANYONE in this community feel uncomfortable :)

Oh and Sojeru, youve had me looking through the NT for a while now but I cant find it lol. It was some connection with Shaul wasnt it?

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[sojeru]

no achi Adon "Hix"

look in "TOLEDOT Talmud" (geneologies of the Talmud) of the Nazarean compilement.

If you want me to tell you flat out, please email me

shalom u'brachot
Antonio

[Charlesinflorida]

Mark and Luke are only a condensed version of the Talmud- the Talmud before the fall of the Temple- thus these nazarean writtings are superior (partially) to the full version.


Greetings to you as well,

I would be intersted in a deeper explanation of this. For my limited exposure Talmud reads nothing like Mark or Luke.

Also I think you may have (or I have) misunderstood the original post. I thought the question was "To correctly oberve Sabbath, then the other six common days must be occupied with work. Are you doing this?

It is sort of reversing the emphasis from the day of Rest, to the days of work. I think this misses the intent. Some people have to work six days without choice. This was especially true in ancient times and in many eastern countries today.Other people can not even get 5 days work. So the Commandment is to emphasis the sanctification of the entire week by pacing it through Sabbath rest a day that points to Messiah and His Kingdom.

If the emphasis was on the working, then it should have read, "In the 7 days you have one to rest, sabbath, thereore you must work all the other six days of the week, because the Lord worked six days and rested on only one."

But Sabbath points to Gods rest through Messiah, when we rest from our labors, and become sons who jointly inherit the kingdom.

Also I will say that I do not agree with the connection that you make at the bottom portion of you post concerning not imposing Sabbath rest on Gentiles and not imposing Sunday rest on Jews. This is an afront to the Gospel which tells us that the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles is torn down. We are both under the same Covenant, the same God, the same Messiah, the same ordinace, the same Torah. There is one God, and there can only be one people (family) of God. It is not by ethnicity, it is by election. And from the very beginning even before there was such a thing as a Jew, God had already determined that all the nations of the earth would be brought near to him, through Messiah.

The Gentiles have rejected Torah, and their works of obedience (Mitzvot). The Jews have rejected Messiah beause he seems to be the possession of the Gentiles. So the Jews have taken Torah obedience and ethnicity for its connection to God, not acording to Torah but by the Rabbinical sages.

And both of these groups will be very much suprised in the end. Because the plan of God is one people all saved through faith and through love, and the new life in the spirit are obedient to Gods word, Torah. Not two people one. Not two covenants OLD and NEW, just one continuous covenant.

CIF

[sojeru]

Greetings Your Excellency Adon Charles,

you said:
I would be intersted in a deeper explanation of this. For my limited exposure Talmud reads nothing like Mark or Luke.

Also I think you may have (or I have) misunderstood the original post. I thought the question was "To correctly oberve Sabbath, then the other six common days must be occupied with work. Are you doing this?
y
okay, email me concerning Mark and Luke at my email address

and about the original question, yes, the other days would have to be filled with work in order to REST correctly, however, if a person is full of wealth, there isnt much work for him depending on what he does for a living.

So just because a Jew is wealthy and has no need to work like everyone else does, should he disregard the seventh day? by no means!

what about a poor Jew?
what if his resting on the sabbath constitutes that his family cannot eat on the sabbath, because he does not make enough to provide for two days?
Then by the Talmud, it is a MTZVA that the Jew should work in make sure that his family lives- maybe HaShem will bless him on the earth for his good works.

now- not any day is the shabbat, the shabbat is the seventh day.
But was the shabbat given to the world? by no means!
And this is the only statement i will make concerning this- for you are not one open to understand the way that I see it- you only blatantly oppose.
And by seeing this- I will not waste my time arguing with you on this subject matter.

If you wished to understand, and then still disagree then i would have issued forth my understanding- but you do not reside in that house.

shalom u'brachot
Antonio

[Charlesinflorida]

Greetings Your Excellency Adon Charles,

you said:
I would be intersted in a deeper explanation of this. For my limited exposure Talmud reads nothing like Mark or Luke.

Also I think you may have (or I have) misunderstood the original post. I thought the question was "To correctly oberve Sabbath, then the other six common days must be occupied with work. Are you doing this?
y
okay, email me concerning Mark and Luke at my email address

and about the original question, yes, the other days would have to be filled with work in order to REST correctly, however, if a person is full of wealth, there isnt much work for him depending on what he does for a living.

So just because a Jew is wealthy and has no need to work like everyone else does, should he disregard the seventh day? by no means!

what about a poor Jew?
what if his resting on the sabbath constitutes that his family cannot eat on the sabbath, because he does not make enough to provide for two days?
Then by the Talmud, it is a MTZVA that the Jew should work in make sure that his family lives- maybe HaShem will bless him on the earth for his good works.

now- not any day is the shabbat, the shabbat is the seventh day.
But was the shabbat given to the world? by no means!
And this is the only statement i will make concerning this- for you are not one open to understand the way that I see it- you only blatantly oppose.
And by seeing this- I will not waste my time arguing with you on this subject matter.

If you wished to understand, and then still disagree then i would have issued forth my understanding- but you do not reside in that house.

shalom u'brachot
Antonio

That's OK.
I do observe the Sabath... Friday sunset to Saturady Sunset.
My Sundays are usually very productive with the business of life.

I am not perfect at keeping all the commandments. I try, and I do a lot of repenting for the times that I fail. I have no one to teach me or encourage me, for there is no fellowship here for Messianics, and no synagogue either.

Some argue that to drive to church on Sabbath is sin. You must kindle a fire in your car engine, it is work to drive. Some say you can not play catch with your child, beause it involves work. Some people tear off pieces of toilet paper from the roll on friday and stack them ready to use in case a need arrises on Sabbath. Different people have different ideas of how to correctly observe Sabbath or to observe any of the commandments. I observe it the best I can with my small family holding Gods word in our hearts, and Yeshua before us as ou Messiah.

By the way, at one time I was required to work on Sabbath by my employer. I had to earn a living and support my family. I asked for forgiveness for my situation and prayed that God would change it for me. Eventually he did. Perhaps He saw my heart and knew that I really wanted to rest on Sabbath.

Blessings to you Antonio,

CIF

[Mordechai18]

Interesting replies, everyone. Thank you.
It seems there's quite a wide range of opinions, observances, and practices within Messianic Judaism. I find that both comforting and confusing. :)

P.S. - P4I, was your "sermon" directed at me? I'd hope that I haven't come across as very judgmental (so far).

[ShirChadash]

*pokes Morry*
I'm not P4I but I'll say I highly doubt it... you haven't even posted much! ;)

:D