Inverted Crosses..

[Metalhead777]

I found this off a Christian Metal site.. Dead Zine..Check it out.. I found this quite interesting, and true...
------------------------------------------------------------
What is it about an inverted cross that causes such negative feelings amongst Christians? The instant response to that questions is "They are satanic."

This is the most basic of flaws with the entire satanism point of view. Let me explain by going back first.

What is it about a cross that makes it a holy symbol? Well obviously it is a symbol of the the supreme sacrifice made by God of his son, who died on a cross for forgiveness of our sins. So by looking upon a cross we are reminded of that sacrifice and therefore we hold it up as a holy icon.

What then is the background of an inverted cross that makes it satanic or unholy? None that I can find. In fact the only story behind an inverted cross that I have been able to unearth is one of pure love for Jesus.

After the burning of Rome, the Roman government laid blame for the cities destruction on the Christians. St. Peter was tried, convicted and sentenced to death for these crimes. He was crucified upside down in an effort to mock the belief he held so tightly to. He was persecuted for his belief in God. Just as the Bible says all Christians will be persecuted in the name of God.

So it would seem to me that if Jesus died on a cross and we now look upon a cross as a symbol of his undying love for us who are not worthy of his glory, than an inverted cross would logically only stand as a symbol of the persecution we face as Christians. A symbol for us to hold up and say "Yes I am a Christian, persecute me now there will be not time for it in eternity."

My point is, satanism tries to tell you that an inverted cross is their's, but it's just a lie. The symbol is ours, and we deserve it. God almighty created everything in this universe, satan can only corrupt and disfigure those things. This is what has happened to the inverted cross.

So don't fear a simple cross wether it's inverted or not, it is rightfully a symbol of Christianity.

Does this mean we should now sport the inverted cross, and take pride in it? Well one would think that it is ours and we should. Unfortunatly this world's ignorance won't stand for that. The corruption of the inverted cross has been done, we will only be associated with satanism if we wear it. The next time your in a conversation with some fan of Death Metal, who thinks your views of Christianity are outdated and contricting, just tell him that the symbol on his Deicide shirt is a holy symbol, and that he is supporting the plight of all Chirstians by wearing it.
Dead Zine
Isnt it great? :clap:

[Brother_Joey_Gowdy]

Ill be blunt... Inverted crosses and even bent crosses are evil

[Metalhead777]

yeah, your right.. I guess ill have to brush up on my facts..

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Brother_Joey_Gowdy
Ill be blunt... Inverted crosses and even bent crosses are evil

Why do you believe that?

If Jesus were stabbed to death by the Romans, would we all instead be wearing little daggers on our necks? And would it be evil to wear them upside down?

[Brother_Joey_Gowdy]

This thread belongs in the Bible Studies, will move it there.

[LMD_777]

I think it is evil it was taken by satan and put upside down as blasphemy twords God just like he does to so many other things such as the star of david he took a regular star inverted it and circled it and now the occult surrounds it the same with a goat he uses it instead of a lamb just because its so close but its now there yet
just because it wasn't evil in the past doesn't mean its not bad now or that because it was bad in the past it doesn't mean its wrong now
like woman in the church they use to have to wear something to cover their head and they couldn't talk in church but things have changed over the years
we have to use discretion in everything that is around us and also look at what the culture says is good or bad not that they should entirely control what we think but we are to obey the laws of the government and culture changes throught history things will become god and bad all throught life

[OldBadfish]

In my opinion, just the fact that we have the knowledge and association of what an upside down cross symbolizes makes it evil, I mean it is common knowledge that an upside down cross symbolizes evil, why try to change anyones mind?

[Wolseley]

Just the input of an informed Catholic---if you study your early Church history, you'll discover that Peter was put to death by being crucified upside-down. The inverted cross is a symbol of Peter's martyrdom. Jack Chick and others of his ilk have tried to put across that it's a satanic symbol, but as with so many things, "it ain't necessarily so".

[Dave Ulchers]

Originally posted by Badfish
I mean it is common knowledge that an upside down cross symbolizes evil, why try to change anyones mind?
It's common knowledge in the U.S that it is bad luck if a black cat crosses your path.

It's common knowledge in France that it is good luck if a black cat crosses your path.

Which one is right?

None of my satanist friends use the inverted cross as a symbol of their faith. Aren't they the experts?

[Christi]

Just out of curiosity, Dave, why do you have Satanist friends?

[Tinker Grey]

I am not Dave, but Jesus was a friend of the prostitutes and tax collectors. This is not indicative of Dave's condonment (necessarily, he could say otherwise), merely his following of Christ's example (perhaps).

Tinker

[soulsisterclaire]

There is a HUGE difference between being friends with a sinner, such as a prostitute, and being friends with someone that WORSHIPS Satan.

I would say that it is not a good idea to be friends with Satanists.

Dave must be kidding.... :confused:

[Christi]

Yes, Tinker, and I am especially asking this question of Dave because it seems to contradict some of his past attitudes towards much smaller issues. And by the way, the fact that Jesus befriended sinners and prostitutes is one of the things I love about Him most. :)

[ZiSunka]

I found this off a Christian Metal site.. Dead Zine..

A CHRISTIAN website called Deazine????!!!!

There is no way it is Christian, if it is affliating itself with death!!!! :(

My aunts are satanists, and they DO wear inverted crosses and have them in their homes as symbols of their faith. They say it mocks Christ. They even say there is a ritual in which one male satanist will agree to be bound upsidedown on an inverted cross while perverted acts are committed on him.

If you don't think the inverted cross is counter to what Christians believe about the cross, then you don't kow anything about satanism or about Christ.

I am sickened by this whole post. To think that some Christian would try to make this perversion of the Cross into something acceptable to Christians makes me sick.

[Metalhead777]

now that you guys put it that way.. it makes since.. thanks for the update... well go see the site for your self at www.deadzine.com im kinda confused right now :scratch:

[Metalhead777]

sorry for upsetting you.. just had to clerify that if the Zine was true.. apparently not.. :sorry:

[christpunx]

Originally posted by lambslove


A CHRISTIAN website called Deazine????!!!!

There is no way it is Christian, if it is affliating itself with death!!!! :(



I haven't heard of deadzine before but I'm sure when it says dead they could possibly be meaning dead to sin or dead to this world.

[Metalhead777]

now i dont wnat you guys to think i like/worship the Devil.. dont worry just had to clerify this mis-understanding.

[christpunx]

Since Dead's inception, plenty of people have challenged me about my choice in naming the zine. "Why not call it 'Life' instead of 'Dead'?" they'd ask. Well first off and the most obvious is Dead covers extreme music and the word Dead fits much more nicely than 'Life'...besides there has already been a magazine called Life, not to mention a breakfast cereal.

On a spiritual note, Paul was very fond of using words like death, dead, die, etc. I've found that I'm a BIG fan of Paul's, is it any wonder? So let me give you some of his words concerning the matter.

Romans 8:10

"And if Christ be in you, the flesh is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness."
King James Version

Galatians 2:20

"For I am crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."
New International Version

I Corinthians 15:31

"I die everyday-I mean that brothers-just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord."
New International Version

What Dead Believes
We don't want to get into too many technicalities here. Basically what we support is Christianity. The belief that Jesus Christ the son of God came to this earth and died as a living sacrifice to pardon us of our sins. Three days later Jesus arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to be reunited with His Father, our Lord. There he waits until the day he returns to bring his children home.

We believe that to be saved you must, as the Bible says, "Confess with thy tongue" and in doing so if you "believe in Him" then "Thou shalt be saved."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have ever lasting life."
John 3:16
King James Version

So in closing let's return to the name thing. Many times over in the Bible you will read about death/dying/being dead. Never-the-less the Bible is God's Holy Living Word, and is beautiful. By calling the zine Dead we are aligning ourselves with Paul's thoughts on how to become closer to Christ and live as He would have us live.

[ZiSunka]

Dead covers extreme music and the word Dead fits much more nicely than 'Life'...besides there has already been a magazine called Life, not to mention a breakfast cereal.

What an incredibly lame explanation. :(

[christpunx]

Originally posted by lambslove


What an incredibly lame explanation. :(

That part might have been a little lame...true. But what about the rest of it?

[ZooMom]

Does no-one have anything to say regarding Peter's death on an inverted cross? Or the fact that Peter requested that the cross be turned upside down, because he thought he was not worthy to suffer the exact same death as our Lord?

I'm thinking of Christmas and Easter and very rich irony.

[Metalhead777]

ill have to look into it..

[Tinker Grey]

Originally Posted by Christi

Yes, Tinker, and I am especially asking this question of Dave because it seems to contradict some of his past attitudes towards much smaller issues. And by the way, the fact that Jesus befriended sinners and prostitutes is one of the things I love about Him most.

Yes. I was knee-jerking to what seemed like a knee-jerk question, forgetting that many of you folks are more active and know each other quite well. Perhaps, Dave will enlighten. Lately, the idea of trying to emulate Christ in this area is quite important to how I am trying to formulate my ideas about church ministry.

Originally Posted by soulsisterclaire

There is a HUGE difference between being friends with a sinner, such as a prostitute, and being friends with someone that WORSHIPS Satan.

I would say that it is not a good idea to be friends with Satanists.

I am not sure there is a difference. They need Jesus as much as a prostitute. If one Christian with whom a satanist is in regular contact is not a jerk, not a person who thumbs his/her nose, loves them in spite of who they profess to be, then maybe when the Holy Spirt, who is not willing that any should perish, woos them, perhaps they will respond.

If, OTOH, every Christian fails to love as Jesus did, then perhaps the satanist will reject the call even if sorely convicted. It is true that each person is responsible for their own decisions, but we should not be the stumbling blocks.

Tinker

[Christi]

Tinker Grey, I understand where you are coming from. I struggled with the thought of asking people struggling with sin to leave the church in another post. However, when I hear "Satanist" I think of someone with an indwelling of Satan, much the same way when I hear Christian I think of someone with an indwelling of Christ. See, I don't just think "sinner", I don't think someone of another faith....I think EVIL. I am concerned if we should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, how much more so should we not be yoked with Satan. However, I also agree with you about these people need Jesus THE MOST. And we are to be "salt and light." It is a confusing subject for me, just how tolerant should we be, where do we draw the line, where do we put our arms around someone, and when do we "be seperate?"

[ZiSunka]

There is actually no historic evidence that Peter died on an inverted cross. Although Roman records indicated that he was crucified, they don't mention inverting the cross. It's legend and nothing more.

Furthermore, I am astonished and offended that anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian would be trying so hard to get us to adopt and embrace a well-known symbol of satan, like the inverted cross!

[Wolseley]

There is actually no historic evidence that Peter died on an inverted cross. Although Roman records indicated that he was crucified, they don't mention inverting the cross. It's legend and nothing more.
Two things here: one, even if it is a legend, the inverted cross of Peter is based on the legend that he was crucified upside-down, and not out of honor to Satan or any such other nonsense; and two, the 1st-century corpse that was disinterred from under St. Peter's Basilica in Rome that is believed to be that of Peter is missing the feet from the ankles down; this would fit in with the Roman practice of simply hacking the feet off the deceased victim to get it off the cross beam, rather than actually taking time to remove the body by pulling the spikes. Arms were tied to the horizontal beam as often as they were nailed, so there may have been no reason to hack off the hands.
Furthermore, I am astonished and offended that anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian would be trying so hard to get us to adopt and embrace a well-known symbol of satan, like the inverted cross!
My question here would be, upon what evidence are you basing your assertion that the inverted cross is a Satanic symbol? Who said this, and where? Who told you this, or where did you read it? What are they basing their claim upon? Can you give me a reference than I can corroborate? If not, then the idea that an inverted cross is a Satanic symbol is just as much a legend as you assert that Peter's upside-down crucifixion is.

[Tinker Grey]

Christi,

Thank you for your comments. I agree that it is difficult. Since I have never met someone quite so diametrically opposed to myself as to be a Satanist, I am not sure how I would react. I think we agree that being "salt and light" is both required and not easy.

A baptist pastor, who had exchanged pulpits for one sunday with my pastor, said in his sermon that the Bible never commanded that we isolate ourselves from the people of this world. OTOH, the Bible does say to isolate ourselves from Christians who teach false doctrine (he provided references).

I think sometimes the confusion comes in the meaning of the word "friend". I don't think we set ourselves up for marriage of someone that different from our core. That would be, as you said, "being unequally yoked." But can I sit down at McD's have a burger & coke and listen to his troubles? You betcha. Should I worry that someone from church might see me? Nope (tho' I might).

So WRT Dave, I guess it depends on what he means by friends. Unfortunately for the purposes of communication, the word "acquaintance" has fallen into disuse.

The other mitigating factor with Satanists for me is that I don't see them as EVIL so much. Rather, because I am old enough to remember the seventies and the spate of bands that were "satanist". I look at the vast majority of satanism as a sham. I think the teens that claim to be satanist are looking for shock value just as a goth or punk might. In that sense, I tend to view satanists as merely troubled. I am sure that that is not always the case.

lambslove,

I am shocked and offended that you are shocked and offended! :) Ok, maybe not. But as one who's screen name reflects the love of God, perhaps you should put a little more effort into understanding the people defending the inverted cross.

Whether there is historical evidence the Peter died on an inverted cross, the tradition is probably ~1700 yrs old. It is certainly older than the tradition that the inverted cross is a symbol of Satan.

Partly, we should remember that a symbol is a symbol because we ourselves invest it with meaning. There is no inherent meaning in any symbol, nor, therefore in an inverted cross. Consider it like Paul eating meat offerred to idols. It is ok to do so if it doesn't cause your brother to stumble. (Romans 14:20).

So perhaps we can understand the psychology of a christian in the Heavy Metal industry (or just a fan, I didn't check out the website) defending inverted crosses. For one, he likes the music. For two, there is some evidence for his claims. For three, just like other Christians who find something interesting and simply must share ("did you know that Easter is a pagan holiday?!??!!?! EEEEEEK!"), he sharing and investing effort in that discovery.

If he/she is into heavy metal, than perhaps he likes shocking the established point of view. And challenging people's notions of the inverted cross apparently does that.

If we wish to put any effort in to faulting him, it could be based on Romans 14:20. That is, perhaps he is not as concerned with "causing his brother to stumble" as he should be.

God bless,

Tinker

[Christi]

Tinker Grey, Thanks for raising some thought-provoking issues about the "people" aspect of this. Maybe it's one of those things that you have to take on a case-by-case basis, like the teenagers. Perhaps the Holy Spirit within us would warn us when they is truly a situation we need to remove ourselves from. I did a search on inverted crosses to find out about the origin, and I found myself in several satanic websites. Some of them were pretty hokey, but some of them really creeped me out and I had to back click FAST. So maybe it will be like that with people? Maybe we will have discernment if we find ourselves in that situation? I don't really run in circles where I would meet any satanist's, though, so maybe I won't have to worry about it. Thanks for your thoughts, though. :)

[Tinker Grey]

Christi,

Thank you as well. Amen, especially on discernment and "case-by-case".

Go with God.

Tinker

[VOW]

Originally posted by lambslove
There is actually no historic evidence that Peter died on an inverted cross. Although Roman records indicated that he was crucified, they don't mention inverting the cross. It's legend and nothing more.


Concerning the manner of Peter's death, we possess a tradition--attested to by Tertullian at the end of the second century (see above) and by Origen (in Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", II, i)--that he suffered crucifixion. Origen says: "Peter was crucified at Rome with his head downwards, as he himself had desired to suffer".

Link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm#IV

I place my vote with Wolseley, in that perhaps it IS a legend, but the story had to come from somewhere. Of course, the plethora of "urban legends" that fill my email box can testify to the strength of a rumor!

The upright cross is practically a universal symbol of Christianity. I would think anyone wearing an inverted cross would be swamped with cute remarks: "Hey, fella, you need to stand on your head!" "Whoa, did you know your pin is upside down?" "Hey, you from Australia or something?"

If you get your jollies from explaining the same story over and over and over and OVER again, who am I to judge you? Knock yourself out! For me, I'll stay with the upright cross that tells everyone, "Hey, I'm a Christian," instead of creating confusion at the get-go, by saying, "Hey, I might be dyslexic!"


Peace be with you,
~VOW

[ZiSunka]

The upright cross is practically a universal symbol of Christianity. I would think anyone wearing an inverted cross would be swamped with cute remarks: "Hey, fella, you need to stand on your head!" "Whoa, did you know your pin is upside down?" "Hey, you from Australia or something?"

Where I come from, if you wore an inverted cross, people would run from you like the plague. They'd think you were a devil-worshipper, and never give you a chance to explain about persecution or Peter.

At best, it's a mixed message. At worse, it's trying to make the people of God embrace a symbol of satan.

[Metalhead777]

i agree.. i just had to know if that article was true..

[Christi]

Lambslove, when I did a search on "inverted cross" every single result was to a satanic site, except for two articles explaining why the Pope was sitting in front of an inverted cross. I have never known it to be anything BUT a symbol for satanism, although I have always heard that Peter was crucified upside down. You won't catch me in one, that's for sure! I've been causing enough stumbling blocks with the cigarette problem! lol!