Question

[kiwiekat]

I was watching TV, and this guy killed another guy by punching him twice. It turns out that the killed guy was hurt by a previous injury, and that the punching triggered his death. The guy who killed him didn't intend to kill him though. So my question is, if that was a real case and the guy was Christian, would he be forgiven? Even if he did intend to kill the guy, would he be forgiven? When I was a kid, I was taught in Sunday School that when a Christian already knew he shouldn't murder, but he still did then he wouldn't be forgiven. However, doesn't the Bible says that all sins are forgiven...exept for the blasphemy of the Spirit? That leads me to another question, what is blasphemy of the Spirit?

Thanks. :)

[kyzar]

Good question... The bible does say though that all sins will be forgiven... Try looking at it like this. The bible says no one sin is greater or smaller than any other (all sins are equal in God's eyes)... If God can forgive me for lying, or swearing, or many 'minor' sins (not that there are any) then God can forgive me killing someone, or being adulterous... As Christians we know we shouldn't kill, be adulterous, lie etc... So I feel a whole lot more 'guilty' of sinning until i ask for forgiveness, but God will forigve me as He has promised to do...

[Sword-In-Hand]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the rejection of Christ as the Savior. It's like when you are in a service or just anywhere and you feel God calling you and you turn your back on Him and don't accept His call to salvation. That's why that is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. You have to have Christ to be forgiven in the first place and if reject Him, obviously you don't have Him for forgiveness.


And yes all sins are the same in God's eyes, but there are different levels of punishment. I.e. someone would be punished to a different degree for commiting say murder than someone else would be for telling a white lie, but both are still sins. David and Paul are prime examples of murderers who were forgiven. The Bible does however speak on knowingly sinning even though you are a Christian. When a Christian does this, then they are toying with God's wrath being poured out on them.

[kyzar]

The Bible does however speak on knowingly sinning even though you are a Christian. When a Christian does this, then they are toying with God's wrath being poured out on them.
I agree with the punishment etc. and pushing God. But I was simply saying that God will forigve any sin (except for rejection as you pointed out) if you truely come to Him asking forgiveness...

[daveleau]

If he had intended to kill him, he would have been forgiven. There is a sin that is no forgiven, which is the sin of the unsaved.

God bless,
Dave

[ZiSunka]

I was watching TV, and this guy killed another guy by punching him twice. It turns out that the killed guy was hurt by a previous injury, and that the punching triggered his death. The guy who killed him didn't intend to kill him though. So my question is, if that was a real case and the guy was Christian, would he be forgiven? Even if he did intend to kill the guy, would he be forgiven? When I was a kid, I was taught in Sunday School that when a Christian already knew he shouldn't murder, but he still did then he wouldn't be forgiven. However, doesn't the Bible says that all sins are forgiven...exept for the blasphemy of the Spirit? That leads me to another question, what is blasphemy of the Spirit?

Thanks. :)
Why on earth would a Christian be punching another person??

[12volt_man]

So my question is, if that was a real case and the guy was Christian, would he be forgiven? Even if he did intend to kill the guy, would he be forgiven?

Did he repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ?

When I was a kid, I was taught in Sunday School that when a Christian already knew he shouldn't murder, but he still did then he wouldn't be forgiven.

I don't believe that's true. Every one of us knows what God's laws are when we break them.

There's a big difference between a momentary moral lapse and a lifestyle of willfully disobedient sin.

[Gold Dragon]

Why on earth would a Christian be punching another person??
Maybe it was a Christian boxing club. Although that does give new meaning to "turn the other cheek". :)

[ZiSunka]

When I was a kid, I was taught in Sunday School that when a Christian already knew he shouldn't murder, but he still did then he wouldn't be forgiven.

You must have gone to a Jehovah's Witness, because it is what they believe.

[jenptcfan]

God is able to forgive any sin (except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). Christians slip up and sin, even after they are saved, and God is faithful to forgive us.

[Sword-In-Hand]

I'm a Christian and I punch people all the time, but only in sparring matches:D

[kiwiekat]

Oh thanks. The show wasn't real, but it just got me wondering about God. I probably heard wrong about the murder thing in Sunday School.

I have another question, if somebody is already saved can the Holy Spirit leave that person?

[Sword-In-Hand]

I have another question, if somebody is already saved can the Holy Spirit leave that person?
No!!

Ephesians 4:30, “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”

[kiwiekat]

Thank you!

I have another question (yet again)...do Christians go through the tribulation? I heard that some think that the rapture comes before, and some thinks it comes after...which is it? If so, does it mean Christians at that time could fall away? "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.... "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." (Matthew 24:10, 13) If they do, are they destined to hell?

[MbiaJc]

I was watching TV, and this guy killed another guy by punching him twice. It turns out that the killed guy was hurt by a previous injury, and that the punching triggered his death. The guy who killed him didn't intend to kill him though. So my question is, if that was a real case and the guy was Christian, would he be forgiven? Even if he did intend to kill the guy, would he be forgiven? When I was a kid, I was taught in Sunday School that when a Christian already knew he shouldn't murder, but he still did then he wouldn't be forgiven. However, doesn't the Bible says that all sins are forgiven...exept for the blasphemy of the Spirit? That leads me to another question, what is blasphemy of the Spirit?

Thanks. :)The answer to the first question: I believe yes.

Second question: Unbelief, not believing the Holy Spirit when He is trying to teach you is one way. Another is to contribut the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil.


I have another question (yet again)...do Christians go through the tribulation? I heard that some think that the rapture comes before, and some thinks it comes after...which is it? If so, does it mean Christians at that time could fall away? "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.... "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." (Matthew 24:10, 13) If they do, are they destined to hell?I think not, the rapture is just before the tribulation.

The falling away is, falling away from sound doctrine. Having etching ears to hear what they won't to hear rather than what thus saith the Lord. I think we are already in the great falling away. For how many Churches the last few years have changed their doctring. To allow wonen, gays and lesbians as preachers\pastors. Also denying God's word by saying most of Genises is fables and fiction. That a lot of Paul's writings are not authorative, they are just his openion. And a lot more which is conturary to God's word the Bible.

[kiwiekat]

Hi, thanks for your reply. What does it mean to contribute the work of the Spirit to the devil? I hope a Christian can't do that...?

Also, the women being preachers, gay marriages...how come people think that when someone doesn't have these rights that it's unfair? I mean for the role of women according to the Bible, isn't it made for the sake of order rather than to limit their freedom?

[Sword-In-Hand]

Hi, thanks for your reply. What does it mean to contribute the work of the Spirit to the devil? I hope a Christian can't do that...?

Also, the women being preachers, gay marriages...how come people think that when someone doesn't have these rights that it's unfair? I mean for the role of women according to the Bible, isn't it made for the sake of order rather than to limit their freedom?
Well in the last days there will be many false prophets who claim they are doing God's work when in fact they are doing Satan's. Christians can, although I hope it is because of ignorance, contribute to the devil's work. Gossip, backbiting, teaching false doctrine, uplifting oneself instead of another and basically anything else that tears down the kingdom of heaven is doing Satan's work.

People think it is unfair because of the term known as "political correctness." This invention has helped society decline ever since it became popularized. In general people don't want what God thinks is best for them because we are ourselves and what we want is surely better than what God wants for us. *Please note the sarcasm :) * They don't want to hold on to the truth of the Bible because it doesn't suit their needs and usually what parts of the Bible they do hold onto are so twisted out of order that its hardly a remnant of what it really says. God has roles for us and He gives us guidelines, it should be only smart of us to follow the only Creator of the universe.

[kiwiekat]

Thank you, I'm learning a lot!!! :)

So for the tribulation (it's so scary), what are the verses that say Christians won't go through it?

[FranklinNoble]

These are great questions, and good answers. :)

[MbiaJc]

Hi, thanks for your reply. What does it mean to contribute the work of the Spirit to the devil? I hope a Christian can't do that...?

Also, the women being preachers, gay marriages...how come people think that when someone doesn't have these rights that it's unfair? I mean for the role of women according to the Bible, isn't it made for the sake of order rather than to limit their freedom?
Well the best example I would think is when, the works that Jesus was doing, was said to be done by the power of the devil. Mathew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.


Yes and its only when the whole Church has come together. In my view the woman is actually elevated higher than the man. For she is to teach the children and young women. Now think about it if she doesn't do her job, then how can the man do his job. I credit my faith to my mother, grandmother, and a old maid sundy school teacher + when I was a teenager a saintly woman sunday school teacher. Not my dady or grandpaw or any preacher when you get right down to it.

As for the gays they choose that lifestyle, they are not born that way, so I don't see where they deserve any special treatment. Rather should be condemned for their ungodly lifestyle.

[mesue]

All sin separates us from God, and Jesus died for all sins, including murder.

All sin separates us from God, and Jesus died for all sins, including murder.

1 John 1:9
is still in the Bible for any Christian to claim.
So is Romans 6:15
Galatians 2:21
and
Hebrews 12:1

[Vessel Of Mercy]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the rejection of Christ as the Savior. It's like when you are in a service or just anywhere and you feel God calling you and you turn your back on Him and don't accept His call to salvation. That's why that is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. You have to have Christ to be forgiven in the first place and if reject Him, obviously you don't have Him for forgiveness.
Sword-In-Hand, would a person be forgiven if he chose to accept Christ the next time he heard about Him? If he were forgiven then, then how is that first sin unforgivable?

Did he repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ? I don't believe that's true. Every one of us knows what God's laws are when we break them. There's a big difference between a momentary moral lapse and a lifestyle of willfully disobedient sin.
I completely agree with you! If the man were truly repentant than God would forgive him. It is God who leads us to true repentance. I quote this again because I can't say it better: "There's a big difference between a momentary moral lapse and a lifestyle of willfully disobedient sin."

I am sorry I have so little to say, but I hope that helped someone. May you all have grace and peace multiplied unto you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus.

Ben

[costlygrace]

I completely agree with you! If the man were truly repentant than God would forgive him... I quote this again because I can't say it better: "There's a big difference between a momentary moral lapse and a lifestyle of willfully disobedient sin."

Very true. But for someone to go that far, there is bound to be lifestyle issues involved, because it shows a hardened conscience. However, the opportunity for forgiveness is still there, if the sinner is truly repentant.

[Vessel Of Mercy]

Very true. But for someone to go that far, there is bound to be lifestyle issues involved, because it shows a hardened conscience. However, the opportunity for forgiveness is still there, if the sinner is truly repentant.

Yes, you're right. There are definitely problems with his lifestyle already if he could just murder someone.

[Sword-In-Hand]

Sword-In-Hand, would a person be forgiven if he chose to accept Christ the next time he heard about Him? If he were forgiven then, then how is that first sin unforgivable?
Definitely! The invitation to accept the Lord is always available. Once we have accepted Christ as our Savior then there isn't anything we can't be forgiven for.

People have often argued as to whether a lost person's prayers are heard by God. While I cannot judge what God hears and doesn't, I know through scripture that Jesus is our Mediator, Advocate and only way to the Father, so if we don't have a mediator or advocate how can we communicate with the Father? See what I mean?

The only sin that is unforgivable is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but if you accept Christ and don't reject Him, you're not committing that unforgivable sin.

[kiwiekat]

If someone threatened a Christian with a gun and tell him to deny his faith, and the Christian did out of fear...would he/she really be rejecting God or lying? Would the person be forgiven? Of course, that's just a scenario, I hope that never happens to any believer.

Also, can someone show me verses that say Christians won't go through the tribulation?

Thanks everyone! :)

[kyzar]

If someone threatened a Christian with a gun and tell him to deny his faith, and the Christian did out of fear...would he/she really be rejecting God or lying? Would the person be forgiven? Of course, that's just a scenario, I hope that never happens to any believer.

Also, can someone show me verses that say Christians won't go through the tribulation?

Thanks everyone! :)
Good point... I would like to think that I would never 'reject' my Lord, but like Peter, i guess even the best of us can deny Him at times... Speaking of Peter, I have no doubt that he is in heaven now yes? He denied Jesus three times in the one night, did he reject Christ, or simply lie?

Secondly I too would like some verses about Chrisitians not going through the tribulation. I believe they don't, but Revelation is something I tend to avoid...

[MbiaJc]

If someone threatened a Christian with a gun and tell him to deny his faith, and the Christian did out of fear...would he/she really be rejecting God or lying? Would the person be forgiven? Of course, that's just a scenario, I hope that never happens to any believer.

Also, can someone show me verses that say Christians won't go through the tribulation?

Thanks everyone! :)There is no verse that says christians you will not go through the tribulations. However if we put line upon line upon line we come to that conclusionn. Here are the main verses that convinced me.

2Thessalonians 2:3-12 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The He who is withholking now is the Holy Spirit. When He is taken outof the way(caught back up to heaven) I believe the Church goes with Him to meet the Lord in the air. And we will return with our Lord at the end of the great tribulation. The battle of armageddon takes place, the beast and false prophet are cast them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound and we live and reign with Christ here on earth for a 1000 years. The rapture I think actually starts the day of the Lord which is a 1000 yrs.

There are more verses that I think confirm the saints will not go through the tribulation. However 2 Thes. is the one that convinced me when the rapture will take place.

[Sword-In-Hand]

I too don't know much about the rapture. My pastor believes in pre-trib rapture of the church and he has shown the verses that support that belief, but then again a colleague of mine is just putting the finishing touches on his book that is the exact oppostite of what the Left Behind author, Tim Lahaye says. He believes that the church will go through the entire tribulation period. I've read Revelation, but I've never studied it and to know prophesy is to almost have a special callling on your life to fully understand it. Honestly some things I don't understand.

I want to believe in pre-trib rapture, because honestly I don't want to go through those horrible years, but one verse sticks out in my mind is...

Hebrews 9:27-28, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this comes judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many."

If every man and woman is appointed to die at one time, then where would the rapture take place? When we are raptured up are we killed? That's the only verse that stumps me about the rapture and if anyone has any insight, that would be great.

[MbiaJc]

Good point... I would like to think that I would never 'reject' my Lord, but like Peter, i guess even the best of us can deny Him at times... Speaking of Peter, I have no doubt that he is in heaven now yes? He denied Jesus three times in the one night, did he reject Christ, or simply lie?

Secondly I too would like some verses about Chrisitians not going through the tribulation. I believe they don't, but Revelation is something I tend to avoid...Peter just denied Christ with his mouth not his heart. For he never stoped, for one second, believing that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God that came to take away the sins of the world.

[MbiaJc]

I too don't know much about the rapture. My pastor believes in pre-trib rapture of the church and he has shown the verses that support that belief, but then again a colleague of mine is just putting the finishing touches on his book that is the exact oppostite of what the Left Behind author, Tim Lahaye says. He believes that the church will go through the entire tribulation period. I've read Revelation, but I've never studied it and to know prophesy is to almost have a special callling on your life to fully understand it. Honestly some things I don't understand.

I want to believe in pre-trib rapture, because honestly I don't want to go through those horrible years, but one verse sticks out in my mind is...

Hebrews 9:27-28, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this comes judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many."

If every man and woman is appointed to die at one time, then where would the rapture take place? When we are raptured up are we killed? That's the only verse that stumps me about the rapture and if anyone has any insight, that would be great.The death this verse is talking about is the one Christ died in our stead. Paul makes it verry clear what will hapen to the saints that are still alive when the Church is caught up.

1Cor. 15:52-57 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The living saints will be changed(put on immortality) in a twinkle of an eye.

Hope that helps

[kiwiekat]

Oh, it's good that Christians might not go through it, but I guess we still have to be prepared for the worst. :S

I read an article in a site called Evidence for God from Science. The article says Christians probably will go through the tribulation because the order of these verses seem to indicate that:

Matthew 24:6 - "...but that is not yet the end"
Matthew 24:8 - "But all these things are merely the beginning..."
Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel ... shall be preached in the whole world..., and then the end shall come"
Matthew 24:29 - "But immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Matthew 24:30 - "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky..."

There's also a verse that says "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Matt 24:22. Does this have anything to do with the tribulation?

Also, are all Christians persecuted for their faith? What kind of persecution is it? I did ask this a while ago, but I would like to hear more on what different people think.

Thanks again everyone for helping me! :)

[Sword-In-Hand]

The death this verse is talking about is the one Christ died in our stead. Paul makes it verry clear what will hapen to the saints that are still alive when the Church is caught up.

1Cor. 15:52-57 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The living saints will be changed(put on immortality) in a twinkle of an eye.

Hope that helps
I've read that before. I don't doubt there will be a rapture, I just wonder when it will be, pre, mid or post.

[MbiaJc]

I've read that before. I don't doubt there will be a rapture, I just wonder when it will be, pre, mid or post.

Pre. that when the Holy Spirit leaves. I don't think the Church would be left here without Him.

[Sword-In-Hand]

That's what my pastor has said before too, but the question arrives. If the Holy Spirit is gone, which is the convicting, drawing Spirit of the Lord, how will anyone left behind be saved?

[MbiaJc]

That's what my pastor has said before too, but the question arrives. If the Holy Spirit is gone, which is the convicting, drawing Spirit of the Lord, how will anyone left behind be saved?

This is where knowledge of OT and of Israel history helps. When the church is raptured God goes back to dealing with natural Iseral as before the Church age. The Holy Spirit will be here as before measured out. Whereas He was poured out without measure on the Church.

[MbiaJc]

Oh, it's good that Christians might not go through it, but I guess we still have to be prepared for the worst. :S

I read an article in a site called Evidence for God from Science. The article says Christians probably will go through the tribulation because the order of these verses seem to indicate that:

Matthew 24:6 - "...but that is not yet the end"
Matthew 24:8 - "But all these things are merely the beginning..."
Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel ... shall be preached in the whole world..., and then the end shall come"
Matthew 24:29 - "But immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Matthew 24:30 - "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky..."

There's also a verse that says "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Matt 24:22. Does this have anything to do with the tribulation?

Also, are all Christians persecuted for their faith? What kind of persecution is it? I did ask this a while ago, but I would like to hear more on what different people think.

Thanks again everyone for helping me! :)You are not listening close enough or who you are listening to is not distinguishing between the rapture and Christ actual return to earth which is 7yr apart. In Matthew 24 there is 7yr. between verse 14 and 30. At the rapture the saints go to meet the Lord in the air after verse 14 is complete. The Lord doesn't touch earth then. It is after verse 30 the Lords feet actually touch earth and we will return alongside Him.

[kiwiekat]

Thank you for the clarification. :)