Lutherans

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

What are the core beliefs of Lutherans and how does one know if they are Lutheran?

[theologia crucis]

In short:

1.) The One True God is Triune (as the creeds expound).

2.) Every human conceived born to human mothers and fathers is conceived in sin, and is totally sinful and in need of a savior.

3.) Due to this sin, we are far to dead to God, and cannot do anything to save ourselves.

4.) Thankfully, Jesus Christ came down from heaven, became just like us, lived the absolutely perfect life that God demands of us humans, suffered the punishment we really deserve, died on the cross to forgive our sins, and rose from the dead for our justification.

5.) Thanks to Jesus' vicarious atonement, when we believe on Jesus Christ (and faith is a gift from God!), we are declared righteous be God, and all our sins are forgiven, past, present and future!

6.) Good works automatically flow from this faith, but we will remain sinful until our death.

7.) We believe that Christ ordained two sacraments: Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

8.) We baptize infants because of their sinful condition, and through baptism, they receive the gift of faith, and hence, they are forgiven of their sins. That's why we believe baptism saves, because the end result is that infants believe in Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit.

9.) We believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, and that through it, God increases our faith in Christ. We believe that there are four elements present at one time: bread and body, wine and blood.

10.) We are amillenialists.

11.) Lastly, the Latin words Lutherans are famous for are:

a.) sola gratia: we are saved by God's grace alone.
b.) sola fide: we are justified (declared righteous by God or acquited of all our sins) by faith alone in Christ.
c.) sola scriptura: we believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Holy and innerant Word, and they alone are the source of all teaching.

If you want more in depth reading, you can go to this (www.bookofconcord.org), it is our public confession of faith.

In short, if you know that you are forgiven of all your sins by Christ dying on the cross, you might be a Lutheran!

(Should I do that in a Jeff Foxworthy type voice?) ;)

Let us know if you have any specific questions. We love to discuss stuff! And hopefully, somebody smarter than I will respond!

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Are all of these "secondary looking" doctrines necessary to be Lutheran? As in, I'm an anabaptist :P

[filosofer]

Yes. Numbers 1-5, and 11 are necessary to be Christian. The understanding of how God works through means (Word, Baptism and Lord's Supper) and the proper distinction between Law and Gospel are what distinguish Lutherans from other Christians.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok, 1-5 and 11 I can definately do. Does that mean I am Lutheran?

[theologia crucis]

Well, for us, these aren't secondary doctrines!

Fundamental doctrines are:

1.) Sin and its consequences
2.) the person and work of Christ
3.) the Word of God
4.) the resurrection

If one gets any of those wrong, they will be in SERIOUS trouble in regards to their "long term future residence"!

Secondary doctrines are Baptism and the Lord's Supper. They are still extremely important, but one can still be saved if one doesn't get them absolutely Scripturally right (but, it is still best to get them right!).

Non-fundamental doctrines are those like angels, anti-Christs and eternal election, etc.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Well, for us, these aren't secondary doctrines!

Fundamental doctrines are:

1.) Sin and its consequences
2.) the person and work of Christ
3.) the Word of God
4.) the resurrection

If one gets any of those wrong, they will be in SERIOUS trouble in regards to their "long term future residence"!

These I agree with

[filosofer]

Which means you are Christian, but you do not confess the faith as a Lutheran

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Which means you are Christian, but you do not confess the faith as a Lutheran
So the others define a Lutheran?

[theologia crucis]

I've gotta go to bed, so I'll leave this in filo's far more compotent hands, if he's got the time...

[I can eat 50 eggs]

those are the VERY basics of the Christian faith, if you don't got thse, you got big problems, Lutherans, being a sub set of Christians, have other doctorines which set them apart from other denominations. The "non essential" (but very important) disagreement you will have with them over baptism is what puts you in the Christian realm, but not the lutheran subset, for example.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

those are the VERY basics of the Christian faith, if you don't got thse, you got big problems, Lutherans, being a sub set of Christians, have other doctorines which set them apart from other denominations. The "non essential" (but very important) disagreement you will have with them over baptism is what puts you in the Christian realm, but not the lutheran subset, for example.
Can one be both Lutheran and an anabaptist? I think it's possible, but I want a Lutheran perspective. I can agree with all of those points though

[I can eat 50 eggs]

boy, I don't see how, the beliefs on baptism and the lords supper are pretty much mutually exclusive.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

boy, I don't see how, the beliefs on baptism and the lords supper are pretty much mutually exclusive.
As for baptism, I've seen baptism at birth then rebaptism at an older age. I think that suits both criteria. As for the Lord's Supper, there is not total agreement among anabaptists

[filosofer]

so I'll leave this in filo's far more compotent hands,

What kind of hands do you think I have? LOL

compotent = com - potent = with power?

omnipotent?

compotent = compote - nt = Lutheran dessert?

:D

if he's got the time...
If you've got the money... (old, country song from 1951) :)

[filosofer]

boy, I don't see how, the beliefs on baptism and the lords supper are pretty much mutually exclusive.

I would agree.

And the basis for disagreement relates to the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

This would involve such doctrines as original sin, etc.

[I can eat 50 eggs]

lutherans would have big trouble with that rebaptising portion you know, from the creed

"we acknowledge ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins"

[filosofer]

As for baptism, I've seen baptism at birth then rebaptism at an older age. I think that suits both criteria. As for the Lord's Supper, there is not total agreement among anabaptists

WRT Baptism, the real issue is whether it is seen as something the person does as obedience (anabaptist/Baptist view) or whether it is something God does (brings forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation, Acts 2:28-39, 16:33; 1 Pet. 3:21, etc.).

WRT Lord's Supper, all anabaptists/Baptists would see the bread and wine as only symbolic, whereas Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ's body and blood received for the forgiveness of sins (1 Cor. 10:16, 11:23-30, Matthew 26:22-25, etc.).

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

lutherans would have big trouble with that rebaptising portion you know, from the creed

"we acknowledge ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins"
It's all in the interpretation of the Creed ;)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

WRT Baptism, the real issue is whether it is seen as something the person does as obedience (Baptist view) or whether it is something God does (brings forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation, Acts 2:28-39, 16:33; 1 Pet. 3:21, etc.).

WRT Lord's Supper, all Baptists would see the bread and wine as only symbolic, whereas Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ's body and blood received for the forgiveness of sins (1 Cor. 10:16, 11:23-30, Matthew 26:22-25, etc.).
To clarify, Anabaptists are NOT Baptists

[I can eat 50 eggs]

yup,

they are the little red haired orphans of baptists.

oh, wait, that's Annie baptists,
my bad.

[filosofer]

To clarify, Anabaptists are NOT Baptists

True, and I changed my post before you quoted.

However, from the theological stand point regarding Baptism and the Lord's Supper there is no difference.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

True, and I changed my post before you quoted.

However, from the theological stand point regarding Baptism and the Lord's Supper there is no difference.
Sorry.

It really does depend on the person. Anabaptism is a little more open than a lot of other denoms are in that sense. So I gues it boils down to this: If the One baptism is based off one interpretation if the Creed, is someone, who agrees on all other points but interprets this part differently, not a Lutheran because of this? Or do Lutherans allow multiple interpretations of the Creed?

[I can eat 50 eggs]

officially out of my league now.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

officially out of my league now.
Most of my questions are totally off the wall weird. It's ok :P

[theologia crucis]

One quick thing before I head to work: one baptism in the creed reflects what's in the Scriptures:

Ephes. 4:5 (ESV)
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

[Phoebe]

One Baptism can also be a reference that we are all baptized into Christ. You don't need John's baptism and baptism into Christ. You need the latter. (1 Corinthians 12.13)



John the Baptist had disciples. (Lk. 11.1, Acts 19.1-7)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So then, as long as a believe in one TYPE of baptism, and all other points, I am Lutheran?

[filosofer]

Still the issue of original sin, and the view of the Lord's Supper

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

What is the view of original sin? Lord's supper should be fine.

[sculpturegirl]

Bizzlebin- It sounds to me like you really really want to be Lutheran!

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Bizzlebin- It sounds to me like you really really want to be Lutheran!
;)

[JVAC]

Can one be both Lutheran and an anabaptist? I think it's possible, but I want a Lutheran perspective. I can agree with all of those points though


No, if one becomes Lutheran, one ceaces to be an anabaptist, for Lutherans love the Holy Sacraments, and hold true to them. Lutherans believe that the precious body and blood of the Lord Jesus is in the Chalice and the bread. We also believe that Baptism is a free gift given to the Church to be called children of the most high God and we freely bestow it on our children. We retain Holy confession and absolution in our churches, for we know the great counsel it brings to the anxious conscience. We believe firmly in the Holy Church catholic and through it is the only way to recieve the Holy Ghost in both word and sacrament. We hold firmly as well to the belief of the ancient church, and cherish the saints and martyrs. Anabaptists have problems with us in these respects and thus we are at odds.

Pax Christi :crossrc:

-James

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

No, if one becomes Lutheran, one ceaces to be an anabaptist, for Lutherans love the Holy Sacraments, and hold true to them. Lutherans believe that the precious body and blood of the Lord Jesus is in the Chalice and the bread. We also believe that Baptism is a free gift given to the Church to be called children of the most high God and we freely bestow it on our children. We retain Holy confession and absolution in our churches, for we know the great counsel it brings to the anxious conscience. We believe firmly in the Holy Church catholic and through it is the only way to recieve the Holy Ghost in both word and sacrament. We hold firmly as well to the belief of the ancient church, and cherish the saints and martyrs. Anabaptists have problems with us in these respects and thus we are at odds.

Pax Christi :crossrc:

-James
As I pointed out earlier, it really depends on the group.

[Lotar]

It is pretty much impossible to be Anabaptist and Lutheran at the same time. The sacraments are intertwined with every aspect of Lutheran doctrine, from salvation to the two natures of Christ. To become Lutheran is to cease to be Anabaptist and to become Anabaptist is to cease to be Lutheran, the two belief systems are irreconcilable. To try would most likely end up with some form of crypto-Calvinism.

[SPALATIN]

It is pretty much impossible to be Anabaptist and Lutheran at the same time. The sacraments are intertwined with every aspect of Lutheran doctrine, from salvation to the two natures of Christ. To become Lutheran is to cease to be Anabaptist and to become Anabaptist is to cease to be Lutheran, the two belief systems are irreconcilable. To try would most likely end up with some form of crypto-Calvinism.
Not only that but Luther highly criticized the Anabaptists for their views especially on the sacraments.

[JVAC]

As I pointed out earlier, it really depends on the group.
I don't understand could you clarify? Are you saying that different Lutherans don't hold to the Sacraments as the Lutheran Confessions state, or are you saying some Anabaptists hold to there being real pressence, and/or infant baptism (which kinda negates the name "anabaptist" or rebaptizer).

BTW Lotar, I love the avtar!

-James

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Not only that but Luther highly criticized the Anabaptists for their views especially on the sacraments.
Actually, the other churches went out of their way to kill us :P

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I don't understand could you clarify? Are you saying that different Lutherans don't hold to the Sacraments as the Lutheran Confessions state, or are you saying some Anabaptists hold to there being real pressence, and/or infant baptism (which kinda negates the name "anabaptist" or rebaptizer).
Real presence in the communion is not a huge deal with Anabaptists like it is with other denoms. If the body is real, it's, real; if it is not, it's not. Simple. As for infant baptism, I know of a number of denoms that baptize at infancy AND at a later age.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

To try would most likely end up with some form of crypto-Calvinism.Explain this please.