Copenhagen's Pentecostalists seek inspiration from 'Catholic' symbols

[Oblio]

Copenhagen (ENI). Pentecostal Christians in Denmark who until now have
shunned symbols such as altars, crosses or candles as being Roman Catholic
are showing a new interest in adopting these traditional signs. "We have
lost the symbols, and therefore we have lost the hook on which to hang our
faith," said the Rev. Rene Ottesen from Copenhagen's biggest Pentecostal
church where a sacristy - a special room for meditation and prayer - is to
be dedicated in February. "It has a cross, icons, water, candles and other
Christian symbols," he said. "The symbols give a physical and tangible
dimension to our faith."
[424 words, ENI-04-0075]


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News Highlights = 13 February 2004
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[Photini]

Not too sure what to think about it.

[MariaRegina]

Not too sure what to think about it.

Are they perhaps on a search of the ancient way of Christianity?

[Oblio]

I've posted a cross link to our friends over in the Charismatic forum. I would like to hear their opinions on this.

[Photini]

I've posted a cross link to our friends over in the Charismatic forum. I would like to hear their opinions on this.
Looks like so far the responses are pretty negative.

[Oblio]

I noticed that too, I kind of expected that some would not agree with the Pentecostal view as given in Denmark. I thought it was interesting, and to some extent hopeful. I've got some Charismatic friends that I speak to about Orthodoxy all the time, even given them a quick tour of my icon corner which they found awesome and not offensive at all, and they have no problem with most of our faith. To be sure, there will be a stumbling block or two, this is to be expected. I hope to bring them to their first Liturgy soon :)

[Orthodox Andrew]

Oblio, I just noticed you were Geek Orthodox?:D

[Maximus]

Now you've gone and done it, Oblio.

Caused me to post over there. :sorry:

[Orthodox Andrew]

Now you've gone and done it, Oblio.

Caused me to post over there. :sorry:
I liked your post. May I quote you?;)

[Maximus]

Oblio, I just noticed you were Geek Orthodox?:D
Yes, I just noticed that, too, and the fact that he has over 3,000 posts.

:D :clap:

[Maximus]

I liked your post. May I quote you?;)
Sure.

I'm flattered. :blush:

[Orthodox Andrew]

Sure.

I'm flattered. :blush:
Thanks:clap:

[Oblio]

Yes, I just noticed that, too, and the fact that he has over 3,000 posts.


I have what the good doctor called DotK :D

[Orthodox Andrew]

I have what the good doctor called DotK :D
From all your 3,000 posts, I think I may have understood 4 of them.:D

[Maximus]

I have what the good doctor called DotK :D
Lol.

You've really taken off here.

You should spread some of it around at OC.net (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php).

[Photini]

You should spread some of it around at OC.net (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php).

A couple of months ago I visited there, and had forgotten that I was registered there already. I don't think I've ever made a post over there yet.
I like the MB on Monachos alot too.

[Oblio]

You should spread some of it around at OC.net.


I see your evil plan my friend, you want to overtake my post count over here.
You are exposed, Back !, Is Outrage !, Anathema !

:D

[Maximus]

I've heard of Monachos but have yet to visit it.

I'll have to give it a try.

Time is a limiting factor, though.

[MariaRegina]

I've heard of Monachos but have yet to visit it.

I'll have to give it a try.

Time is a limiting factor, though.

:D They are very overregulated at Monachos. I like OC better.

[Matrona]

From all your 3,000 posts, I think I may have understood 4 of them.:D
DotK = Diarrhea of the Keyboard, cf. one of Maximus's posts from a few days ago.

I know, it took me a few seconds to understand what the heck Oblio was talking about, too. ;)

[Maximus]

DotK = Diarrhea of the Keyboard, cf. one of Maximus's posts from a few days ago.

I know, it took me a few seconds to understand what the heck Oblio was talking about, too. ;)
Yep, got it bad, but Oblio's got it, too.

:sorry:

[Matrona]

Yep, got it bad, but Oblio's got it, too.

:sorry:
You don't have it as bad as me. Here I am with well over 600 posts, and didn't I JUST post something in the Taverna celebrating my 400th post?!?! :o :)

[Maximus]

You don't have it as bad as me. Here I am with well over 600 posts, and didn't I JUST post something in the Taverna celebrating my 400th post?!?! :o :)
Must be a virus.

Uh-oh . . .

[Orthodox Andrew]

DotK = Diarrhea of the Keyboard, cf. one of Maximus's posts from a few days ago.

I know, it took me a few seconds to understand what the heck Oblio was talking about, too. ;)
Thanks for the translation from "Oblio" to English.:D


j/k

[Photini]

I've heard of Monachos but have yet to visit it.

I'll have to give it a try.

Time is a limiting factor, though.
It is highly moderated, which I appreciate. There is a strong presence of priests and monastics that post there. The board's purpose is mainly for discussing Patristics. It is very edifying to read what the monks have to say there...because they speak in light of experience.
It's a much slower moving MB than here or OC net.

[Oblio]

It is important to remember WRT the communion of the saints the differnence the icon and the prototype. This is natural for Orthodox to keep them separate, IOW our veneration is not of the wood and paint, but rather the Saint (or event) depicted in such.

[MariaRegina]

The Holy Spirit blows where He wills.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us and save us.

[Photini]

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration



http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ephrem/synodikon.htm

[Suzannah]

oblio : here's a tissue to wipe that mud off your shirt....I can't believe it.

[Matrona]

/me doesn't know if a tissue is going to do it, and hands Oblio a towel

I'm so glad I have found Orthodoxy... I am so, so glad.

[MariaRegina]

Before I became Orthodox, I would occasionally visit the AoG churches, but it wasn't until I discovered Eastern Orthodoxy, with the incense, the beautiful vestments, the candles, and the glorious icons reminding us of the cloud of witnesses that surround us, that I really experienced joyful Spirit-filled Heavenly Worship. That Sunday I sang with complete faith and heavenly joy the Post-Communion Hymn:

We have seen the true Light

We have received the Heavenly Spirit

We have found the True Faith

Worshipping the Undivided Trinity

For He has saved us.

A Pocket Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians, p. 101
Published by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, 2000.

[Matrona]

We have seen the true Light

We have received the Heavenly Spirit

We have found the True Faith

Worshipping the Undivided Trinity

For He has saved us.
:clap:

For some reason, I felt the urge to sing that with gusto this morning. :)

[Oblio]

I wonder what the overall IRL Pentacostal reaction to this is ?

[MariaRegina]

I wonder what the overall IRL Pentacostal reaction to this is ?

Any Protestant denomination becomes upset when people "defect" to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. When the Foursquare Church in San Dimas converted en masse to Orthodoxy in 1996, the Foursquare Church headquarters were not happy at all.

Some Protestants appear to assume that Orthodoxy must be a cult, as it's so strange to them. When you consider that there are 1500 years between Protestantism and Orthodoxy -- well no wonder Orthodoxy appears strange to them. Candles, incense, Holy Water, Holy Vestments, Altars, Blessed Oil, Icons, the Holy Sacraments -- all were ditched.
:eek:

We've never lost our Holy Sacred Traditions which were given to us by Christ Himself through the Holy Apostles.

P.S. Foursquare Churches are Pentecostal!

[Oblio]

Any Protestant denomination becomes upset when people "defect" to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. When the Foursquare Church in San Dimas converted en masse to Orthodoxy in 1996, the Foursquare Church headquarters were not happy at all.


What was the reaction of Campus Crusade for Christ when thousands converted to Orthodoxy Christianity en masse with Fr. Peter Gilquist ?

[MariaRegina]

What was the reaction of Campus Crusade for Christ when thousands converted to Orthodoxy Christianity en masse with Fr. Peter Gilquist ?

They were not happy campers.

However, the Evangelical Orthodox Church had parted ways with Campus Crusade years earlier because Father Peter recognized that Campus Crusade could lead people to Christ, but with little follow-up, people could lose their faith and be worse off. Consistent Church fellowship deepens the walk with Christ.

Then Father Peter realized that eliminating sins in one's life required accountability -- Holy Confession helped here. Before long, the Evangelical Orthodox Church had become a liturgical church. Gradually, The EOC paralleled the Orthodox Church. At this point they began their journey into Orthodoxy.

Please see: Becoming Orthodox by Father Peter Gillquist, and published by Conciliar Press. It's also available at www.Amazon.com

[Matrona]

They were not happy campers.

However, the Evangelical Orthodox Church had parted ways with Campus Crusade years earlier because Father Peter recognized that Campus Crusade could lead people to Christ, but with little follow-up, people could lose their faith and be worse off.
That is so true.

I've seen first-hand how my local CCC group operates. The most accurate phrase I can think of to describe how they process the students here is 'chews them up and spits them out'.

I can't even say that they're wrong but well-intentioned--if you ask me, Crusade, at least in my experience, is just plain evil. They convert people, yes, but the conversion's only temporary, the people don't tell the converts what to do as a Christian or how to live or where to go, and without that je ne sais pas that the Orthodox Church, that grounding in history and liturgical worship, those 'converts' drift back away from Christ, but this time they have a very bad experience with Christians under their belt. Towards the end of my Crusade experience, I bitterly remarked to one of my friends that changing the name to Campus Crusade for Agnosticism would be a more accurate name, since that's what so many of their 'converts' on my campus eventually drift towards.

[Oblio]

They convert people, yes, but the conversion's only temporary, the people don't tell the converts what to do as a Christian or how to live or where to go, and without that je ne sais pas that the Orthodox Church, that grounding in history and liturgical worship, those 'converts' drift back away from Christ, but this time they have a very bad experience with Christians under their belt.


This is what IMO is missing from most other Christian confessions. By throwing out works in the praxis of their religion, Christians in effect isolate their relationship with Christ to one of a spiritual nature only. This Dualism, rooted in heresy, denys that we are spirit, soul, and body. One cannot exersise the spirit and soul without effecting the body, and the body without effecting spirit and soul. Works do not save us to be sure, but they train us and prepare our mind, body and spirit as a place that our Lord can dwell.

[MariaRegina]

This is what IMO is missing from most other Christian confessions. By throwing out works in the praxis of their religion, Christians in effect isolate their relationship with Christ to one of a spiritual nature only. This Dualism, rooted in heresy, denys that we are spirit, soul, and body. One cannot exersise the spirit and soul without effecting the body, and the body without effecting spirit and soul. Works do not save us to be sure, but they train us and prepare our mind, body and spirit as a place that our Lord can dwell.

Furthermore, the Holy Orthodox Church teaches that we are created good, in the image of God. Our body becomes a Temple of God when we receive Holy Communion. That is why we don't believe in cremation: we are in the process of theosis: becoming deified by Grace. When we receive Holy Communion, our bodies and souls are sanctified.

When we sin, both body and soul are negatively affected. When we do good deed, our body and souls are positively affected because our spirit enlivens our body. If our spirit is dead, our body cannot function normally and we become mentally ill or suicidal.

Many Protestants teach that we are born evil -- that our body is evil.

[prodromos]

That is what really struck me about Orthodoxy compared to Evangelical Protestantism. In E.P. you get loads of the theory coming at you from the pulpit but very little in terms of how you go about putting it into practice. Orthodoxy gives you both the theory and the means to put it into practice.

(A nice bonus is that the theory doesn't have any contradictions, and has depths which I will never plumb)

John.

[Oblio]

In E.P. you get loads of the theory coming at you from the pulpit but very little in terms of how you go about putting it into practice.


We would have to ask perhaps Suzannah, but I think that Charismatics have something in common with Orthodoxy in that at least in worship we are less concerned with overt preachin' and teachin' and more on worship (albiet we are by definition more orderly about it :) )

[Suzannah]

We would have to ask perhaps Suzannah, but I think that Charismatics have something in common with Orthodoxy in that at least in worship we are less concerned with overt preachin' and teachin' and more on worship (albiet we are by definition more orderly about it :) )

Well, here's my take, for whatever it's worth:

I grew up attending AG missionary churches in Africa where we lived when I was a child. I was, by the way, priviledged and honored to learn "Bible" from a noted AG scholar and missionary, James Barnard. He gave me an excellent grounding in Scripture and was an extremely loving and humble man. Having said that, I have to say that I never really encountered all the "anti-Catholic/Orthodox" bias until I came to the United States as an adult. AG missionaries, in my experience, were never preaching that Catholics and Orthodox were not "Christians" nor did they teach that the charismatic gifts were the "mark" of "Christians", nor did they preach that iconography and so forth was idolatrous. (Maybe they had their hands full in Africa, with the real thing and therefore they had their priorities straight.) Perhaps they held private opinions that they didn't share, but they certainly weren't preaching it from the pulpit. This sort of thing *may* be unique to these shores, I don't really know.

As far as worship itself goes, and insofar as I was taught by AG missionaries, worship was not to be about one's own approach to God, but rather it should be worship all the day long, and in addition, should be about who God actually is (fear and trembling comes in here) and not who we "think" him to be.
I believe this is mainstream AG teaching on worship. Whether it is strictly adhered to by various AG churches would be anecdotal, I guess.

So yes, I would say that if you were to meet a true AG missionary, especially abroad, they would agree with you Oblio, that there is common ground for us to meet on and be thankful for, and they would simply praise God for your dedication to Jesus. I've never met anti-Catholic/Orthodox AG missionaries.

(In Ireland, my actual homeland, however, all of this is subject to much debate due to political issues. If my homeland were not split over politics, I rather doubt that fanatics like Ian Paisley would have a leg to stand on...it's possible to be a Catholic and in favor of "home rule" in N. Ireland and vice versa....the "anti-Catholic" feeling in N. Ireland comes from an entirely different perspective: that of politics.)

[Oblio]

As far as worship itself goes, and insofar as I was taught by AG missionaries, worship was not to be about one's own approach to God, but rather it should be worship all the day long, and in addition, should be about who God actually is (fear and trembling comes in here) and not who we "think" him to be. I believe this is mainstream AG teaching on worship.


Sounds rather ... Orthodox :)

Thank you for you testimony of what AoG teaches in the missionary environment.

[Suzannah]

:P Hope it helped...but seriously, why do you think it was so easy for me to convert??? LOL! Thanks AG!

(And thank you J. Barnard for being such a humble and loving Christian who recognized "true" Christians in every land...)

[Suzannah]

May I just add one more thought: In thinking about all this, it occurs to me that I also attended Baptist (American Baptist/USA) missionary churches too, both in Africa and also in the Middle East....they didn't teach any of this anti-Catholic/Orthodox stuff either....
The Baptist churches also held to the same basic tenet as the AG's about worship. I see a pattern here....
:)

[MariaRegina]

May I just add one more thought: In thinking about all this, it occurs to me that I also attended Baptist (American Baptist/USA) missionary churches too, both in Africa and also in the Middle East....they didn't teach any of this anti-Catholic/Orthodox stuff either....
The Baptist churches also held to the same basic tenet as the AG's about worship. I see a pattern here....
:)

When the poor Irishmen came over to America during the Great Potato Famine, that is when the hate groups organized and started persecuting Catholics and also the Greek Orthodox Christians down South.

There is a horrible movie they show in all the community colleges and State Universities here in California. I think it is called Shadow of Hatred. If you didn't look at the pictures, the phrases that these anti-Catholic bigots used to describe the poor immigrants sounded exactly like anti-Black KKK propaganda.

In fact, Irish Catholic and Greek Orthodox immigrants were called "non-whites" and were persecuted and their churches burned, just because they weren't of Anglo-Saxon Germanic descent.

Suzannah, I think you are right. We have a lot of bigotry here in the United States that people in other lands don't experience.

[Suzannah]

chanter: very interesting ! Thank you! I have read a bit about the "emigrant" experience of the Irish in America, of course, but I have not really studied it in depth...I imagine that you are of course, correct in your assessment of that. The Famine was comprised greatly of Irish Catholics, namely because they were the persecuted back home, under a Protestant rule. hmmmm...I shall have to reflect on this some more in light of your comments! :)

I have never wanted to engage in any sort of racial self pity (poor me the Irish immigrant victim) and so I have not thought too much about it. But I think now I will...

[Oblio]

From what I have heard, the same sort of things happened in some of the Russian parishes because of McCarthyism.

[MariaRegina]

I studied English history last semester and also a course in Intercultural Communications. In both classes we studied the roots of bigotry.

The Celts were not of Anglo-Saxon origin. The Anglos and the Saxons were Germanic peoples. When the Celts were being persecuted by the Picts, another Germanic peoples, the Celts asked the Anglos to come and defend them from the Picts who were pirates. The Anglos did come but invaded England, forcing the Celts to move to Ireland, Scotland and Brittany (France). The Celts were Christians and built most of the monasteries in England and Ireland. If it wasn't for the Celtic monks, the Anglos and the Saxons wouldn't be Christian today.

So the people of the UK owe a great deal of gratitude to the Orthodox Celtic monks.

[MariaRegina]

From what I have heard, the same sort of things happened in some of the Russian parishes because of McCarthyism.

Double whammy! The Russian immigrants were labeled "non-whites" and "commies". Some of my friends were simply amazed that the fair-skinned, blonde blue-eyed Russians were labeled "non-whites".

[Suzannah]

Fascinating! Anecdotally at least, it would appear from what you've said that there does indeed seem to be a unique sort of persecution over here of Catholics and Orthodox.

I am going to research this further....thanks !

chanter: You are quite correct re: the Celts and the Picts...Most often, I had to take correspondence courses growing up (the original "home school"! ) and this was taught in my Irish history classes. (My courses came through a programme for children at Trinity College/Dublin).

For all the Americans here: do you feel that anti-Russian feelings still prevail in the US? Because of Cold War after effects perhaps?

[MariaRegina]

Dear Suzannah,

People aren't afraid of Russians anymore. There are so many immigrants in America.

At my university, we have Russian students who are pro-communist and who wear the hammer and sickle red t-shirt around campus. They don't help. There is also a Russian mafia which is terrorizing the Russian immigrants. Not too long ago we had a newsstory about the Russian mafia and their acts of atrocity. I think this scares a lot of people.

We've gotten way off topic.

[Oblio]

We've gotten way off topic.


Who ? Us ?

Somebody call a moderator quick !

:D

[Suzannah]

You're right! Let's take it to the Tavern and discuss over drinks....much more fun! You know how I love the Pub....

[MariaRegina]

Who ? Us ?

Somebody call a moderator quick !

:D

Dear Chris,

You have an uncanny way of just showing up.
:D

If you were JeffreyLloyd, we'd be on a new thread! Do you think we should talk in a new thread about the Irish Orthodox monks who saved the world?

BTW: The Danes once ruled over England -- and they were a Germanic people also. Small world.

[Suzannah]

Dear Chris,

You have an uncanny way of just showing up.
:D

If you were JeffreyLloyd, we'd be on a new thread! Do you think we should talk in a new thread about the Irish Orthodox monks who saved the world?

BTW: The Danes once ruled over England -- and they were a Germanic people also. Small world.
Oh please, lets? :D
I'll start it!

[Oblio]

:)

I am loath to actively moderate unless it is absolutely required. I think thread closings, edits, and trashings should be a last resort*. I like to see discussions meander and segue as they do in real life, as long as they are not hijacked maliciously or to mislead.

* - This is my personal moderating style and I do not intend to denigrate those with an iron fist :) Indeed, there are some forums and boards (e.g. Mo' Nachos) that benefit from a stricter moderating style.

[MariaRegina]

Has anyone here read the story of St. Peter Church in San Dimas?

It is simply fascinating. Father Joseph Corrigan wrote a story about it which was printed by the Antiochian Missions and Evangelization Board. I think their conversion story was included in the newer printing of the Orthodox Study Bible (NT and Psalms).

Anyway, Father Joseph was getting ready to do a worship service (before he even knew about the Orthodox Church) and several of his parishioners came to see him privately -- each giving him the same words of wisdom - "Search the Ancient Path."

These words of wisdom led them into Orthodoxy. From Pentecostal to Orthodoxy in just a few words.

[Evangelia]

This is an interesting story I ran across the other day and was meaning to post to see what you all thought of it.

h t t p://w w w.stsymeon.org/CangracereplaceHolySpirit.htm

Can you please look over it, and maybe the rest of the site, and let me know what you think?

[Photini]

http://www.stsymeon.org/CangracereplaceHolySpirit.htm

Here's that link.

[MariaRegina]

Be careful:

There was an Orthodox priest who was defrocked several years ago because he got involved with Benny Hinn (an ex-Orthodox Christian). This priest left the Orthodox Church and founded his own church. He was originally from Florida.

[Photini]

Be careful:

There was an Orthodox priest who was defrocked several years ago because he got involved with Benny Hinn (an ex-Orthodox Christian). This priest left the Orthodox Church and founded his own church. He was originally from Florida.
That's why I'm asking.

[Reader Nilus]

There is a discussion of Eusebios Stephanou on Monachos.net (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4226/13306.html?1065799276).
Jeff the Finn

[Photini]

There is a discussion of Eusebios Stephanou on Monachos.net (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4226/13306.html?1065799276).
Jeff the FinnThanks so much Jeff. I remember reading through and following that thread when it was active. I guess it relates also to the thread Chris just started about the Gideon outreach thing.

[Godzman]

I've been noticing the similarities between pentecostals and catholics for a long time and this only proves my point.


Symbols are not bad they serve as catalysts and reminders of the faithfulness of God. He has been faithful to us and we will be faithful to him.

Pentecostals are famous for using objects, and not always sacred symbols, which bothers me.

I think the similarities can be positive and negative.

I may write an expose on the similarities between Pentecostals and Charismatics and the Catholic and Orthodox churches.