Sin

[dependingonhim]

Does the Bible teach that a Christian can live completely above any sin, any failure in his life?

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:4-9)

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Do you mean to ask is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning after salvation? If so I have a few scriptures here.

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

I believe we are to aim for perfection, but actually gaining perfection is only possible I think, once we have entered into paradise.

[ZiSunka]

Doesn't the Bible also say that whoever says they don't sin makes God a liar?

How about Isaiah? Didn't he say, "We all, like sheep, have gone astray?"

[Dave Ulchers]

Saying and doing are two different things on both sides of the fence!

[Martin]

We do fall into sin, even after salvation and they must be confessed to God, but if you have a living relationship with Jesus that was birthed at the cross, then He has paid for all your sins, past, present & future. So we no longer continue to live in sin, but we do fall into sin... :holy:

[LouisBooth]

It teaches you live without sin nature..but not without sin. You get better at not sinning (sanctification) but until you leave this earth, you will sin.

[Blessed-one]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
You get better at not sinning (sanctification) but until you leave this earth, you will sin.

yeah, and that's why we ask God for forgiveness! and keep trying relying on the power of the Holy Spirit to resist sin.

[dependingonhim]

After I put this thread in I noticed there had been another one on "should we confess our sins" posted in February. The reason I wanted to post this question was because of a response that I received on an earlier post using the scripture from 1 John 3:9 and stating that a Christian cannot sin. I noticed in the other thread there was also a response that believes we can live without sin . I wanted to see what the rest of you had to say about this.

My Bible notes say the following regarding to 1 John 3:9: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

As born again Christians, we do have a new nature, but we also still have the old one. That is why the scriptures tell us to examine our Christian walk in the light of God's Word. The new nature does not commit sin - cannot sin. The old nature does sin any time we let it. As a child of God, we will keep under the old nature by not yielding to the desire of the flesh; or the old nature will keep us under, and we will live a defeated Christian life.

This is so important for us to understand because if we do not believe we are in a battle (our Spirit against our fleshly desires) we are not going to fight!

"For the flesh set its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please" Galatians 5:17

[jrmorganjr]

Yes, I've had this 1 John 3:9 (I think it's Dave_Ulchers' favorite verse, and I really (grudgingly) appreciate that he made me aware of it) thrown in my face quite a bit lately around this topic. I've done a little digging, and here's my take.

You immediately have to square it with 1 John 1:7-10 (esp. 8). Note that it is in the context of "walking in the light", not talking about a "pre-saved" past, that is we have sin, not had :
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Same author, same book! This pretty much sews it up for me - we continue to sin after being reborn. Game over.

Another helpful thing I read was that the tense of the verb being translated for 1 John 3:9 really implies a translation more along the lines of "continues to practice a lifestyle of sin" and "he cannot be in the sin lifestyle". Which I compare to the recent posts, that we have an old and new nature both. The new wars with the old, the new cannot practice the sin lifestyle. So what am I saying? That the old self within you will continue to sin until death (or Christ's return), but the reborn self does not sin, and is ever grieving / repenting at the old self's intermittent mastery of the whole self's will.

Another way to look at it is that part which one has yielded to the Holy Spirit cannot sin, this "reborn" self is sinless. The parts the self hasn't yielded, plus the demands of the corrupt body, continue in sin.

Oh to be remade in his likeness! I can't wait to be perfected! The intimacy, the sheer holiness!

[soulsisterclaire]

As born again Christians, we do have a new nature, but we also still have the old one. That is why the scriptures tell us to examine our Christian walk in the light of God's Word. The new nature does not commit sin - cannot sin. The old nature does sin any time we let it. As a child of God, we will keep under the old nature by not yielding to the desire of the flesh; or the old nature will keep us under, and we will live a defeated Christian life.

This is so important for us to understand because if we do not believe we are in a battle (our Spirit against our fleshly desires) we are not going to fight!

Thank you for putting it this way, it has been a great help to me. I struggle with my flesh all the time and this reminds me to do battle with it and NOT give in!

Praise God! :clap:

[Dave Ulchers]

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Same author, same book! This pretty much sews it up for me - we continue to sin after being reborn.
:sigh: I don't undestand why people can't see the difference between saying and doing.

If I said:
a) Anyone who is mute can not talk.
b) Anyone whos says they are mute is a liar.

You would seem to conclude that a mute person actual can talk. :rolleyes:

[jrmorganjr]

Hi Dave_Ulchers!

This syllogism (?) of yours doesn't make sense to me. Could you clarify? You seem to be saying I'm equivocating two concepts/verbs/something in my analysis. Could you explain what you mean?

You do disagree, though, right? What's your interpretation of 1 John 1:7-10? Are you going to maintain that he is talking about "pre-saved" sins?

[Dave Ulchers]

Oops, there was a typo in my post. I hope that clarifies things.

[jrmorganjr]

OK, now I understand your logic in an abstract way. Could you explain to me specifically how it applies to the text at hand? I don't want to make any assumptions on what you're saying.

Thanks -

[Dave Ulchers]

I'm just saying one should consider it entirely possible that if these two statement are true:

a) A mute person does not speak.
b) Anyone who says they are mute is a liar.

Then there is no reason these two statements cannot be true:

a) A child of God does not sin.
b) Anyone who says they don't sin is a liar.

It seems to me that neither statement (b) negates their respective statement (a). In fact you could easily combine them:

(c) A mute person does not speak and does not say he does not speak.
(c) A child of God does not sin and does not say he does not sin.

And these sentences clearly make sense.


I would put 1st John 8 & 10 in their larger context.
Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.

If we say, "We have fellowship with him," while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth.
I would suggest here that walking in darkness is a metaphor for sin. "There is no darkness in God" parallels to 1st John 3:5: "in God there is no sin."

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
Repentance, that is, giving up sin and walking in the light, cleanses past sins.

If we say, "We are without sin," we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
This is basically just a shorter restatement of the previous verse with the metaphor of light and dark removed, more directly addressing the issue of pride.

If we say, "We have not sinned," we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
And now this verse addresses the issue of pride as well.


The traditional understanding takes into account the idea that man

1) always has the potential for sin and needs to be aware of this.
2) often will deny his sins, perhaps even to the point of prideful boasting.

However, there is no way to make these verses mean that repentance is impossible (by grace), especially in light of the rest of 1st John and various other scriptures.

[jrmorganjr]

Well, I don't agree with your analysis at all. Why would anyone say "we're not allowed to say we don't sin - if we do that, we sin", which is your conclusion. Doesn't make sense. It reads much more easily that sinning can continue after being reborn, and that Christ perpetually forgives it as we come to him in repentance. Repentance is never said to be a one time process, immediately followed by being reborn, never to be seen again!

I do concur with your repentance isn't impossible (by grace) statement, but again, it's not a one timer. I like the two natures explanation much better. Have you been reborn, Dave? I only ask that to ask the follow up question - Since you are reborn, does that mean to you that you haven't sinned since that time?

Thanks -

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I'm reminded of this parable. To me, it compares two people. The builder who builds on rock and the builder who builds on sand. Let us compare these two people, aight -G-? ( :D )

They are both, obviously builders. And both Obviously desire a home, and have the tools and suplies to build a home. Are we on the same page? Great.

But here's where they differ. According to scripture, one was wise and was was unwise, or rather foolish. The wise one built his house on the rock, while the foolish one built his house on the sand. And in the end, the one who built his house on the rock, ends up with a house.

Now here's what I make of it. Despite being foolish, the guy building his house on the sand, is still saved. He's as saved as the guy who build his house on the rock. (Although the guy who built it on sand I guess has his feet singed by the fires of hell). But, the guy who built his house on the rock has the rewards, while the one who built his house on the sand does not. This same passage says:

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man

Here, I see that the wise man is given some responisbility, maybe in the age to come by Jesus, because, he has 1) Heard what Jesus commanded and 2) Did what Jesus commanded. Yes, all who get into heaven will get the three crowns. (Crown of Glory, righteousness, and Life.) but the BIble also speaks of other rewards. It does not say what the rewards will be, but it does say that we will get other rewards. And I think scripture right here is telling us who will get those extra rewards. Those who listened, and those who did.

:) (Gosh I keep saying this) I might be wrong. This is just my opinion after readin several books and scriptures on the subject. Go easy on me. I'm reading a book right now called When Christ Comes by Max Lucado, and I'm telling you, it has to be one of the most encouraging books I've ever read. It talks little about specifcs of the end, but tells us alot about what we have to look forward to as Christians. :) It's all biblically based too! I've read alot of Maz Lucado and he's a great Christian writer.

[LouisBooth]

I think a key word in that passage that ya'll have glanced over is "practice". check the greek and we can go from there.

[Dave Ulchers]

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
It reads much more easily that sinning can continue after being reborn, and that Christ perpetually forgives it as we come to him in repentance. Repentance is never said to be a one time process, immediately followed by being reborn, never to be seen again!

Hebrews 5:8f
"Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered; and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, declared by God high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

About this we have much to say, and it is difficult to explain, for you have become sluggish in hearing. Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, (and) not solid food. Everyone who lives on milk lacks experience of the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties are trained by practice to discern good and evil.

Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, instruction about baptisms and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

And we shall do this, if only God permits.

For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Ground that has absorbed the rain falling upon it repeatedly and brings forth crops useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected; it will soon be cursed and finally burned."

[Andrew]

2 poss explanations.

1. Obviously the Christian still sins. But actually, the real me is my spirit that has been recreated in the nature of God. This part of me, which is the real me, which has the nature of God, cannot sin. "bcos His seed remaineth in me". So it is the flesh/soul part of me that sins, when they are not subject to the spirit.

2. "cannot sin" means does not practise sin like there's no tomorrow.

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Heb 5:8 "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered; and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, declared by God high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

We are all made perfect through Jesus.

When we look at revelations, we see Jesus is wearing robes of red, while the saved in heaven are wearing robes of white. You know why? Because Jesus made our robes white by his own blood.

**I hope the above has something to do with the topic at hand**

[jrmorganjr]

Dave (Is Dave ok, rather than your whole name?),

You are indeed a master of talking around a subject. The passage in Hebrews is great, but I think off topic. There's another thread talking about "Can the saved fall away (and then come back)". That's a different issue from "Can we sin after being reborn". Thrice I've asked, are you walking your talk, and no reply. Are you apostate to your own interpretation, or have you indeed, committed no sin since being saved? Or are you not saved, in which case I should not be especially listening to you for instruction.

Don't get me wrong, I find your point of view very interesting and thought provoking, but it appears to me to have so many inconsistencies as to not be valid. I've prayed over it, but haven't gotten much further than what my mind sees to be the clearest interpretation. To wit, I know I'm saved, I know I sin. But I listen to your point of view.

Let me ask the same question from a different point of view. Is it your opinion that someone who sins after being born again, wasn't truly born again? OSAS in reverse?

In Christ,

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

No doubt scripture is clear the all will fall short, and all will sin, and all can only be made righteous THROUGH Jesus, and Him alone.

I believe the NT's basic teachings about sin is this: Sin keeps homanity away from God, but sin cannot keep Jesus away from humanity.

[Dave Ulchers]

Dave is fine, J.R.
Originally posted by jrmorganjr
There's another thread talking about "Can the saved fall away (and then come back)". That's a different issue from "Can we sin after being reborn".
A person who falls away sins, because he lacks the grace not to sin. A person who does not fall away does not sin, because of the grace his will cooperates with.

Thrice I've asked, are you walking your talk, and no reply.
Such a personal question! And one which is really between myself and my confessor. If it makes you feel better, regard me as merely a theologian. But I know whereof I speak.

it appears to me to have so many inconsistencies as to not be valid. I've prayed over it, but haven't gotten much further than what my mind sees to be the clearest interpretation.
Prayer takes time. As does conversion of heart. But you can't drink milk forever.

Is it your opinion that someone who sins after being born again, wasn't truly born again? OSAS in reverse?
A person can not be born again without being born of Spirit, which is recieved by obeying Christs teachings (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=MATT+5-7;LUKE+12;LUKE+13:1-9;JOHN+14-16;&language=english&version=RSV&showfn=on&showxref=on). A person who has recieved this Spirit has Christ living through them, and Christ can not sin. Yet, they retain free will and can cast off the Spirit and return to a life of sin. As whether it is truly possibly to repent again, well, I doubt it. But this isn't impossible because of God so much as human nature. But drink the milk of that link first.

[soulsisterclaire]

A person can not be born again without being born of Spirit, which is recieved by obeying Christs teachings. A person who has recieved this Spirit has Christ living through them, and Christ can not sin. Yet, they retain free will and can cast off the Spirit and return to a life of sin. As whether it is truly possibly to repent again, well, I doubt it. But this isn't impossible because of God so much as human nature. But drink the milk of that link first.

:eek:
Arghhhhhhhhhhhh

Dave, you truly need:help:

[Christi]

Maybe people who had death-bed conversions can go to heaven under Dave's theory??? There is absolutely room for no one in your "religion", Dave. I am so glad Jesus is not so rigid.

[Dave Ulchers]

Originally posted by Christi
There is absolutely room for no one in your "religion", Dave.
I'm only quoting the scriptures. I wouldn't say that there is no room, but it is certaintly a narrow gate.

John 3:5 "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it."

Acts 5:32 St. Peter: "We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him."

Romans 8:9-14 St. Paul "But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."

1st John 3:7-10 St. John -- "Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother."

Hebrews 6:4-6 (St. Bart, or Sts. Avilla and Priscilla, or maybe St. Paul): "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt."

Hebrews 10:26-29 "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?"

Are these enough, or do you want twenty more?

[Christi]

Dave, I think it best if I don't argue with you, but I WILL pray for you. You must be under a lot of condemnation and guilt if you truly believe saved persons never sin again. You will be in my prayers. My first inclination was to start whipping out verses proving you wrong, but I feel that will be unproductive for us both......I will pray that you may see the grace and mercy of our Lord, as well as His holiness.

[Dave Ulchers]

Originally posted by Christi
Dave, I think it best if I don't argue with you
A very wise course of action! ;)

but I WILL pray for you. You must be under a lot of condemnation and guilt if you truly believe saved persons never sin again.
Why should that be?

John 16:7 "For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation"

If you don't listen to the Spirit, you will never repent. Don't you think it is better to listen and repent, than to harden your heart? You would seem to be praying that I harden my heart. Please don't pray about that! :eek:

My first inclination was to start whipping out verses proving you wrong
Proving me wrong, or the scriptures I have quoted wrong? Just consider those scriptures.

John 14:19-21 "In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

John 15:4-10 "Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love."

Romans 8:1 "Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

I will pray that you may see the grace and mercy of our Lord, as well as His holiness.
I have seen all these things. I pray you will know the power of God to lead you to repentance.

[LouisBooth]

"A person can not be born again without being born of Spirit, which is recieved by obeying Christs teachings. A person who has recieved this Spirit has Christ living through them, and Christ can not sin. Yet, they retain free will and can cast off the Spirit and return to a life of sin. As whether it is truly possibly to repent again, well, I doubt it. But this isn't impossible because of God so much as human nature. But drink the milk of that link first."

*sigh* then no one is a christian. I think, as I said before, you missed a key part...PRACTICE sin.

[Christi]

Dave: I am not arguing with you, not because I am wise....but because I am kind. I would wink back, if only I had enough posts. For now though, I feel it best to allow for the premise that I may have misunderstood you.g you. My understanding is that you are saying a person who is truly saved will not sin again. And that in your opinion for a person who does, repentance isn't possible. Am I correct in interpreting your post?

[jrmorganjr]

Hi Dave,

I can only offer you my love, friend. Even if you are somehow deceiving yourself that your are now sinless in perpetuo if you are saved, which I consider unscriptural (the disagreement and resolution between Peter & Paul in Acts being the simplest way to refute your contention - surely all the Apostles (save Judas Iscariot) were saved), I no of noone else even trying to make this claim, whereas I know many who proclaim Christ Lord & Savior. I'm sure you'll think that "Lord, Lord...I never knew you" applies, and you'd just be wrong on that. Many people over various threads have exposed you to the error of your interpretation and you obviously don't see your errancy. All that's left for us is prayer. You're quoting of scripture doesn't help - what I read when I see your proof texts and what you read are obviously different. :sigh: I must accept what the Comforter says to me, rather than you, would that we agreed. :(

Your body is still corrupt, Dave, as is the world. Only Christ was without sin, even in your theology, and that because he was divine. What's the point of having to die, and then being raised again imperishable, if you are already imperishable? That is, if you are truly without sin, Dave, you shouldn't die of "natural" causes.

This is part of the problem with internet discussions. We have no authority over you, to ensure that your heresy doesn't get taught somewhere. You would have everyone questioning their salvation. What a scary, unloving situation. Every time someone fell, they would start to wonder if they were ever "really reborn." Horror! The Devil's lies!

May God lead you to truth.

In Christ,

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Scripture clearly says that if a person calls himself sinless or thinks he is sinless, that person is perverted a decieved.

I pray for ya.