Yeshua seems to be acknowledging working..

[visionary]

Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Need good logic on a discussion regarding Yeshua's working (breaking the sabbath) argument.

Any suggestions??

[Henaynei]

What He broke was only the Traditions - not the Law. You can see similar activities - challenging or extending the prevalent halakah of the day in the teachings of Hallel, Shamai, even Akiva...... in fact even today rabbis do the same - that is what a Beit Din is about ;) establishing halakah, based on Torah, within a community :)

Often called "the law" halakah is a fence constructed around a Law to make it clearer, more difficult to violate or to make it more visible in our everyday lives...... The POINT of Halakah is to show us HOW to keep the Law :)

Yeshua never violated Torah - He did break an halakic rule now and then in showing HaShem's view of the Torah mitzvah. Thereby making halakah - He made the Law clearer and more visible to us - enabling our understanding of the kavanah involved.

[visionary]

Understand that .... it was the info to make it clear from the verses around, and like that would clarify that.

[Henaynei]

I'm not sure what you are asking - but since Yehsua IS HaShem and HaShem is "working" even on Shabbat to keep this world going, AND Yeshua did make Himself equal to HaShem, then He is working also :)

[visionary]

Whe they throw verse like this one that says Jesus was breaking the sabbath with work...what approach through verses before or after can be used to explain that "breaking" is more about the traditions and not the truth in sabbath keeping.

[Henaynei]

Perhaps a simple explaination that none of the actions found in this passage are mentioned in Torah as prohibited on Shabbat or described as work (or ask them to show you where it is), Just because the Judeans *said* it was against Torah does not mean that it was.........

Yochanan 5:6 Yeshua, seeing this man and knowing that he had been there a long time, said to him, "Do you want to be healed?" 7 The sick man answered, "I have no one to put me in the pool when the water is disturbed; and while I'm trying to get there, someone goes in ahead of me." 8 Yeshua said to him, "Get up, pick up your mat and walk!" 9 Immediately the man was healed, and he picked up his mat and walked. Now that day was Shabbat, 10 so the Judeans said to the man who had been healed, "It's Shabbat! It's against Torah for you to carry your mat!" 11 But he answered them, "The man who healed me -- he's the one who told me, `Pick up your mat and walk.'" 12 They asked him, "Who is the man who told you to pick it up and walk?" 13 But the man who had been healed didn't know who it was, because Yeshua had slipped away into the crowd. 14 Afterwards Yeshua found him in the Temple court and said to him, "See, you are well! Now stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you!" 15 The man went off and told the Judeans it was Yeshua who had healed him; 16 and on account of this, the Judeans began harassing Yeshua because he did these things on Shabbat.

[visionary]

Good point.

[Sephania]

And now you can carry a sofa on Shabbat but not a tissue in your pocket. :)

[Talmidah]

Well, wherever you can carry a sofa, you can also carry tissue. (within your home or further with an eruv) :P

[Henaynei]

Well, wherever you can carry a sofa, you can also carry tissue. (within your home or further with an eruv) :P :) True!! :)

[koilias]

Our Rabbi Yohannan the mystic...He, always records something so you can plumb deeper. ;)

"In him was life. And the life was the light of men." vs. 1:4

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. vs. 1:9-10


...the light of the first day of creation! We see the lights of the fourth day of creation not the first. (According to the Midrash Beresheet Rabbah, the light of the first day was preserved for the righteous in the world to come.)

So long as Yeshua is in the world, it is "Day One" of Creation...not the Sabbath!!



The Light of the World visited us that we might have abundant life and know the Father:

11:7 Then after this He said to [the] disciples, "Let us go to Judea again." 8 [The] disciples said to Him, "Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?" 9 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 "But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him." 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."

[ShirChadash]

Well, wherever you can carry a sofa, you can also carry tissue. (within your home or further with an eruv) :P :D :thumbsup::thumbsup: :cool:

[Buccaneer]

Makes me wonder which Talmudic 'rules' Yeshua would brake as well.

[Sephania]

Actually I was referring to the issue of the man carrying his mat. I took a test somewhere, and now (after searching through my history I still can't find it) I can't remember where but it was one of those test your Judaic knowledge type things and one of the halacha questions concerned carrying a tissue on Shabbat. The answer indicated that you couldn't but could move a sofa.

Here is a site that might shed some light on what I was referring to.

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5763/bamidbar.html?print=1


I guess I should have said "move" as I think that was the proper verb used. :blush:

Still learning, have patience.

[Talmidah]

It could have been referring to the fact that most people would consider moving a sofa more 'work' than carrying a tissue. However, since moving an item within your home is does not fall under one of the areas of melacha, it is permissible on the Sabbath. But carrying a tissue (to shul, for example) does fall under hotzaah (transferring something from on place to another). So they may have used that example to challenge some people's notions of what would consitute an act of work on the Sabbath.

[visionary]

No wonder people were under the burden of all the ins and outs of what work constituted. I like the fact that Yeshua explained how it all boils down to going good is acceptable.

[Henaynei]

No wonder people were under the burden of all the ins and outs of what work constituted. I like the fact that Yeshua explained how it all boils down to going good is acceptable.actually it is only those who do not know the instructions that feel burdened - the guidelines are not all that much more complicated than the rules for safely driving a 2 ton machine at 70 mile an hour without killing everyone on the road - there are things you can and things you can't do - you can't just "boil it down" to turn on the car and step on the gas (or doing good) - that may be absloutely necessary to getting anywhere - but if that is all you do you STILL won't get anywhere. It certainly is not all that Yeshua did ;)

HaShem gave us instruction in Torah AND millenia of wise teachers to help us understand those instructions. The greatest confusion, much like learning how to work on a computer, comes where you "only know enough to be confused and dangerous" ;)

[Talmidah]

No wonder people were under the burden of all the ins and outs of what work constituted. :scratch: I certainly don't feel burdened in the least. And the observant people I come into contact with don't either. The Sabbath is so joyful and liberating!:clap:

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Eh, so what are the rules again of the sabbath? What was commanded NOT to do? And what became a law of man to not do? I am kinda confused now :confused: And I thought I had everything under control....

[Talmidah]

Nossa,
I'm at work, and can't take very much time (I'm sure Henaynei or someone will have some great links for you though ;)). Anyway, the prohibitions would have to do with what activities were done in the building of the tabernacle. There are 39 categories and are things like tying, cutting, marking (writing), fire, sewing, cooking, etc. You are not supposed to carry with you any object who's use would be forbidden (without an eruv, you're not supposed to carry anything anyway outside of your home). Also prohibited is anything which would violate the spirit of Shabbat, even if that particular thing per se would not be prohibited.

Gotta run now, but I hope I haven't confused you even more. I'll check this thread again later :)


Oh!!! Very important!!! Any of these prohibitions may (and must) be broken if danger to life is at stake.

[Henaynei]

remember that this journey takes time - don't rush or beat yourself up! I've been traveling this pah for many years - I had no teacher except books and carefully prayfully sifting through the internet.....

Some info ....
39 AVOT MELACHA (http://www.bus.ualberta.ca/yreshef/shabbat/melachaCD.html)

More on the Melachot (http://www.rjca.org/melachot.html)

An audio lecture (http://www.aish.com/shabbatsongs/shabbatsongsdefault/The_39_Melachos_in_Your_Home_(part_1).asp)

What is Shabbat about and how does that relate to the Melachot (http://www.aish.com/shabbatthemes/explorations/Shabbat_Imitating_Creation.asp)- you have to understnad this to understand the rest :)

Hobbies on the Shabbat (http://www.torah.org/learning/phorum/read.php?f=37&i=5481&t=5481)

[Talmidah]

Cool!! Thanks for providing the links (How do you all find all these links, anyway??!?!? LOL)

[Henaynei]

Cool!! Thanks for providing the links (How do you all find all these links, anyway??!?!? LOL) nothing better to do than tickle search engines :) in addition I have 17 years worth of bookmarks from searching out stuff ;)

[apone]

Hi ,

I believe everyone that has responded knows when they themselves are breaking the Sabbath,we feel it...the law is in our hearts now. If I move a sofa from one room to the next for redecorating i know in my heart it is wrong for me, God has made it so thru the Holy spirit.If the Holy Spirit leads me to help a non sabbath keeper having a difficult time moving a sofa that would be ok.....for me.....Our Lord tought us not to judge by external standards.What do you guy think?

With love,Ron

[Sephania]

OK, I am confused, in that Hobbies on Shabbat link you posted Henaynei, one poster said you couldn't exercise or do sports and another said you could. What would you say about someone coaching a little leaque soccor team? How would that fall? Paid or unpaid?

[ShirChadash]

Hi ,

I believe everyone that has responded knows when they themselves are breaking the Sabbath,we feel it...the law is in our hearts now. If I move a sofa from one room to the next for redecorating i know in my heart it is wrong for me, God has made it so thru the Holy spirit.If the Holy Spirit leads me to help a non sabbath keeper having a difficult time moving a sofa that would be ok.....for me.....Our Lord tought us not to judge by external standards.What do you guy think?

With love,Ron
Shalom, Ron.

When something is "in" or "on our hearts"... it is on our hearts to do that thing. If I say, "it's on my heart to call my mom, today", then I mean to say it is on my heart that I do that very thing... it is not on my heart so that I would say, "it's on my heart to call my mom, and since it's on my heart now and that's all that matters -- intention, then thankfully I don't have to bother myself with doing it." :D

Or what do we mean when we say something *isn't* in our hearts? We memorize things "by heart", which means able to recall those things exactly as they are written. And why do we learn the Word, study the Word, memorize Scripture, etc., if not to *do* it (?) ...to make our lives conform to it?

But instead, Christianity has twisted what is meant by "in your hearts". We learn and think that, hey, (now) we have the Law of G-d in our hearts so the gist of it is essentially there and all that matters is that it's in our hearts to follow the "Law" -- intention, ya know -- so we don't have to bother ourselves with doing the "Law". That would be the same as if I, who majored in English, were to say, "well, HEY, I've got my degree in English (the goal of my studies) so now, anything I write -- regardless of whether it conforms to the grammatical rules of this language -- is automatically right, now. Whatever seems good to me, or 'works' for me, that's all I need to bother doing, because I *got* the end result." This is what people are really saying when they declare that since Yeshua was the "Goal" of the "Law of G-d", then "Law" of G-d was meant only to bring us to faith in Yeshua, and so now that we have the "Goal", we don't have to worry about the Torah teaching ("Law") *itself* anymore.

Just thoughts you might consider.

[visionary]

Hi ,

I believe everyone that has responded knows when they themselves are breaking the Sabbath,we feel it...the law is in our hearts now. If I move a sofa from one room to the next for redecorating i know in my heart it is wrong for me, God has made it so thru the Holy spirit.If the Holy Spirit leads me to help a non sabbath keeper having a difficult time moving a sofa that would be ok.....for me.....Our Lord tought us not to judge by external standards.What do you guy think?

With love,Ron
I would say that in most hearts, it is not clear, in fact down right blurry in places. I know what you are saying Ron, that in some cases you have done the same deed, as in moving a sofa on sabbath, and it bothered you that you did it on the sabbath, and another time, it felt good to do it. I agree with you. We have to follow our convictions, we have to pray that the Lord is guiding each and everyone of our steps.

Centuries of studious people have studied the scripture to see if there was some formula that if everyone followed they would be living the truth in their hearts, and it turns into outward cleaning with a dirty bowl inside. By rabbidical definitions you can read of the thoughtful sincere desire to do God's Will and the desire to understand and know it more clearly.

In the end result, it is still personal between you and God as to what you should do with that moment. How you should do it? And the reason why you are doing it the way that you did. By developing a more personal relationship with God, all the above questions become inspirations in the workings of the Holy Spirit upon your life and manifested before men that they may witness the glory of God.

[apone]

Hi Guys,


Thanks for all the great info.Im a new follower of our Lord.My family and i have been observing the Sabbath by study and worship time.Lately my son and i have been packing food and taking it to the homeless.This seems acceptable to us.I mean i have to be able to define what work is and pray about it...right? I try to define what Our Lord deems acceptable.Our Lord gave us all the info we need in the Bible so...where in the Word does it say i should not do work if it is to help someone?

Thanks for your help
Ron

[Sephania]

Bumping for Henaynei to see to answer my question in post #25

[Sephania]

Oh, I just realized why I came to this thread :doh: I came across where I found that test about the sofa and tissue, it seems to be gone now but I took that test at the OU.ORG, I received mailings from them and took it through my email, that is why I couldn't find it in my favorites. :blush: