Western Rite Orthodoxy

[Clann Donald]

An open invitation to hear comments about the historic restoration of Western Rite Orthodoxy... if you are not familiar please check out this web site westernorthodox.com :)

Pax

[Matrona]

Hi Clann Donald, welcome to CF!

I see nothing wrong with Western Rite Orthodoxy, and I think it's great that we have it for people who prefer to have communion with the Orthodox Church with a traditional Anglican liturgy. I would like to see a Western Rite liturgy one day, but there aren't any churches that celebrate it that are near me, so I guess I'll have to wait awhile.

I wouldn't have any idea how to take communion in it, anyway... :)

(My church used to be Western Rite but it switched to Eastern Rite long before I came along.)

[Suzannah]

Caed mile failte Clann Donald!!!! :)
From your Irish sister across the big pond...lovely website! Off to read more...
I'm a new convert to Orthodoxy so I love learning all I can. Grand to have you here! Hope you will post and share often.

Slan!
Your new friend in Christ,
Suzannah

[Clann Donald]

Greetings and thank you... As you probably noticed from my religion symbol I am an Anglican, but theologically (and these days I must emphasize morally) I realize that I am "becoming Orthodox" as they say... and the Western Rite has particularly gained my attention.

Thing is, I am in the ordination process and experiencing this "crisis" at a Protestant (non-episcopal) seminary of all places. Ain't God awesome! He makes things interesting and I love Him for that. I love being face to face with God and looking at how great His lessons in humility are! The pain of purification is just our trouble letting go it so often seems.

But let me ask a question I have been pondering... God told Moses that He would make him the sole beneficiary if Israel's Covenant and make the remnant from his line to be the Nation of the Promise. Moses prays and this does not go down, but imagine a later prophet "like Moses" DID have this happen to Him. Namely, Jesus Christ. Imagine Jesus Christ as the sole faithful son of Abraham and the sole heir to the Covenant of Sinai, just as nearly happened to Moses. Then imagine Jesus taking on every mantle of Israel (King, Priest and Prophet) and being the Light for the Nations just as Israel is called to be, but also restoring and Renewing the Adamic Covenant of Perfection as the mediator of a New Covenant thus fulfilling Israel's call to bear the blessing for the Nations. God would still be “playing by the rules” of the Sinai Covenant to pass every mantle of Israel away from their formers holders and onto Jesus, precisely because God had done this before – when the Covenant was broken before He passed the mantle of priesthood from the first born sons of Israel to the Levites because of the Levites’ fidelity to the Covenant. Jesus’ fidelity to the Covenant could have resulted in the mantle of Israelite priesthood again being passed from the Levites to Him, just as before it had been passed from the first born sons to the Levites. Jesus, according to the flesh, could receive the Davidic Kingship, and anyone can receive the mantle of prophecy – so there you have it, Jesus could be King, Priest and Prophet… AND the sole heir of the Sinai Covenant just as Moses almost was centuries before. Having filled up in Himself every aspect of the Sinai Covenant, as the sole faithful Israelite remnant, the Covenant of Sinai is perfectly lived out in and through Him who is in Himself the constituency of the Nation of Israel... and thus Israel as a Nation IS LIVING in this Holy beyond Holy Israelite who is actually the sole remnant of Israel living on earth and the bearer of all her sacred mantles. He alone was the Israelite remnant - the one son of Adam, son of Abraham - to be faithful to the Sinai Covenant and achieve its objective of being a blessing to all the Nations, and since He went to Heaven without having kids there is no "seed" left to be the faithful remnant of Israel on earth – in Him the entire constituency of the Nation of Israel, the remnant heir to the Sinai Covenant, was taken into Heaven still drawing breath! In other words, "It is finished," and everything about that Sinai Covenant was achieved in Jesus who lived in perfect obedience to the Law of Moses and is now in Heaven. The beauty of this vision is that He did not in any way need to "abolish" that Covenant here on earth because He was its sole recipient (like God almost did with Moses), and the Sinai Covenant was therefore taken back into Heaven in His person. But, hypothetically imagining what would have happened if God did this with Moses, the difference between Moses and Jesus is that Moses had kids so they would have received the Covenant here on earth and would have continued in it here on earth – but since Jesus had no kids to pass the Covenant onto here on earth and He took the Covenant with Himself into Heaven – it no longer has any continued beneficiaries on earth but only in Heaven. However, Jesus left on earth a New Covenant that is the restoration, renewal and perfection of the Adamic Covenant and the rest is history. God promised Abraham that in his seed all Nations would be blessed, and Jesus said that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood we could have no part in Him – Jesus as the Nation of Israel "remnanted" (so to speak) into One Man fits the bill perfectly for achieving the stated goal of God’s promise to Abraham. This seems to be a theological explanation of why the Old Covenant was not "abolished" but passed to Jesus alone who was in Himself the "remnant of Israel" who then took that Covenant into Heaven in Himself leaving behind no "seed after the flesh to continue a line of Israelites in the Sinai Covenant on earth, but instead established a New Covenant in the Church that He left behind on earth – a Covenant that was the restoration, renewal and perfection of the Covenant that God had with Adam from the start of Creation in sinless perfection. Many "Messianics" understand Jesus to have restored, renewed and perfected the Sinai Covenant – but by understanding that the PURPOSE of the Sinai Covenant was the restoration, renewal and perfection of the Adam Covenant, we have a beautifully sublime exaltation of the Sinai Covenant by its achieving of the "renewal" of the Adamic Covenant of perfect sinlessness. This is why Hebrews tells us that the New Covenant has "better promises" because the Sinai Covenant had to make perennial provision for sin, while the New Covenant destroys sin itself (rather than make provision for it). Surely it is wondrous and full of grace provision to forgive sin, but if Sinai's provision to forgive is full of grace how much greater is the New Covenant's promise to not only forgive but to DESTROY all sin such that it is never seen again!!! The Sinai Covenant promises that Israel WILL SIN, but the New Covenant promises that those in her fold will be perfected to NEVER SIN again. Truly this is a return to the Garden of Eden without the Fall. Another way this understanding gracefully understands the Sinai Covenant is that the sole beneficiary of the Covenant is taken ALIVE into Heaven without leaving behind seed after the flesh to continue in that Covenant's stipulations on earth, thus the Sinai Covenant is not "abolished" on earth but its sole heir is assumed into Heaven while LIVING such that the Sinai Covenant did not "die" with its last son of Abraham but was gracefully taken back into Heaven in the Man Jesus, the Covenant having achieved its earthly goal in Jesus while He was on earth – namely, a New Covenant was birthed by the remnant Israelite who lived out the Sinai Covenant. The goal of the Sinai Covenant was the restoration and renewal of Adamic sinless perfection, and after this was achieved, Jesus as the last living heir to the Sinai Covenant could be taken into Heaven having been the remnant of Israel who achieved the mission of the Holy Nation.

Then ask yourself... IS IT ORTHODOX TO BELIEVE THIS???? Let me know what you come with, as I could use some help there. I used to be a "Messianic" and have continued to ponder how to answer certain lingering questions.

Pax

P.S. The Western Rite, in addition to an Orthodoxized Anglican Liturgy also supports an Orthodoxized Tridentine Mass! And, yes, it can be said in Latin or English - I thought that was pretty cool.

[MariaRegina]

Greetings and thank you... As you probably noticed from my religion symbol I am an Anglican, but theologically (and these days I must emphasize morally) I realize that I am "becoming Orthodox" as they say... and the Western Rite has particularly gained my attention.
...

Pax

P.S. The Western Rite, in addition to an Orthodoxized Anglican Liturgy also supports an Orthodoxized Tridentine Mass! And, yes, it can be said in Latin or English - I thought that was pretty cool.

Dear Clann Donald:

I had a copy of the Latin Gregorian Liturgy from St. Augustine's Antiochian Western Rite Parish in Denver, Colorado -- have to look -- it may still be in my library or I might have donated it to an Orthodox Priest.

Anyway, it was very interesting to see the "orthodoxized" ancient Gregorian Liturgy -- yes, there were a few changes. It's sooo devout. I prefer it to the St. Tikhon's revised Anglican Liturgy.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

P.S. See if you can contact the Rt. Reverend Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochian Orthodox. He was a "Roman" or Latin Catholic who favored the Gregorian Rite, so he was ordained into the Antiochian Western Orthodox Rite as an Orthodox Priest. I heard a tape recording of him singing the Gregorian Liturgy and it was truly beautiful.

P.P.S. There was an Episcopal seminarian who studied at St. Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, New York, many years ago, with his Episcopal Bishop's blessing. After one year, he converted to Orthodoxy. He is a great homilist and a wonderful Orthodox Priest in the OCA. He likes to talk about the Moose Club and how the Orthodox parishes used a modified Moose Club by-laws before the turn of the century. It caused a few problems which I think have now been remedied.

[Clann Donald]

Thank you Elizabeth!

Pax

[Matrona]

Then ask yourself... IS IT ORTHODOX TO BELIEVE THIS???? Let me know what you come with, as I could use some help there. I used to be a "Messianic" and have continued to ponder how to answer certain lingering questions.Okay, I'll be honest, I have positively no bloody idea what was being said in about 90% of this post, so I can't really say one way or the other if... whatever it is you said... is Orthodox. :)

But I want to wish you the richest of God's blessings on your search, and I pray that whatever path you follow will lead you closer to the Truth. :pray: :hug: :pray:

You are welcome to ask whatever questions you have in TAW. However, please remember that we are quite imperfect... we are cracked vessels for the Holy Spirit. We must be continually filled in order for our contents to stay level.

[Clann Donald]

Thank you... you remind me why my theology professor called Orthodoxy a "Way of Prayer" ...if anyone else did get what I was asking, feel free to comment. Reading Trinitarian debate from the early Councils is at times confusing, but I always end up blessed by reading it. I think a lot of theology is this way, and I always try to let the Holy Spirit make sacred study a devotional act.

Blessings on all

[Suzannah]

But, hypothetically imagining what would have happened if God did this with Moses, the difference between Moses and Jesus is that Moses had kids so they would have received the Covenant here on earth and would have continued in it here on earth – but since Jesus had no kids to pass the Covenant onto here on earth and He took the Covenant with Himself into Heaven – it no longer has any continued beneficiaries on earth but only in Heaven. However, Jesus left on earth a New Covenant that is the restoration, renewal and perfection of the Adamic Covenant and the rest is history. God promised Abraham that in his seed all Nations would be blessed, and Jesus said that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood we could have no part in Him – Jesus as the Nation of Israel "remnanted" (so to speak) into One Man fits the bill perfectly for achieving the stated goal of God’s promise to Abraham. This seems to be a theological explanation of why the Old Covenant was not "abolished" but passed to Jesus alone who was in Himself the "remnant of Israel" who then took that Covenant into Heaven in Himself leaving behind no "seed after the flesh to continue a line of Israelites in the Sinai Covenant on earth, but instead established a New Covenant in the Church that He left behind on earth – a Covenant that was the restoration, renewal and perfection of the Covenant that God had with Adam from the start of Creation in sinless perfection. Many "Messianics" understand Jesus to have restored, renewed and perfected the Sinai Covenant – but by understanding that the PURPOSE of the Sinai Covenant was the restoration, renewal and perfection of the Adam Covenant, we have a beautifully sublime exaltation of the Sinai Covenant by its achieving of the "renewal" of the Adamic Covenant of perfect sinlessness. This is why Hebrews tells us that the New Covenant has "better promises" because the Sinai Covenant had to make perennial provision for sin, while the New Covenant destroys sin itself (rather than make provision for it). Surely it is wondrous and full of grace provision to forgive sin, but if Sinai's provision to forgive is full of grace how much greater is the New Covenant's promise to not only forgive but to DESTROY all sin such that it is never seen again!!! The Sinai Covenant promises that Israel WILL SIN, but the New Covenant promises that those in her fold will be perfected to NEVER SIN again. Truly this is a return to the Garden of Eden without the Fall. Another way this understanding gracefully understands the Sinai Covenant is that the sole beneficiary of the Covenant is taken ALIVE into Heaven without leaving behind seed after the flesh to continue in that Covenant's stipulations on earth, thus the Sinai Covenant is not "abolished" on earth but its sole heir is assumed into Heaven while LIVING such that the Sinai Covenant did not "die" with its last son of Abraham but was gracefully taken back into Heaven in the Man Jesus, the Covenant having achieved its earthly goal in Jesus while He was on earth – namely, a New Covenant was birthed by the remnant Israelite who lived out the Sinai Covenant. The goal of the Sinai Covenant was the restoration and renewal of Adamic sinless perfection, and after this was achieved, Jesus as the last living heir to the Sinai Covenant could be taken into Heaven having been the remnant of Israel who achieved the mission of the Holy Nation.

Then ask yourself... IS IT ORTHODOX TO BELIEVE THIS???? Let me know what you come with, as I could use some help there. I used to be a "Messianic" and have continued to ponder how to answer certain lingering questions.

Pax

Hallo Donald!!!

I finally sat down and had a moment to reflect on your post. (I edited the quote down to save space). Please bear in mind, that you have the advantage in this discussion, precisely because I am not a seminary student or theology expert. I'm just a simple sailor with a lot of time on my hands! :)

I don't really know if it is "Orthodox" to believe this or not,however I would like to comment a bit. I see, on the surface, a couple of essential difficulties with this theory.

First, let me say that I hope I am not nit-picking your words. I don't know if what you have written completely and fully expresses what you are trying to say, and so therefore, I am only raising any doubt on the basis of what you have written. Any a-s-s-umptions therefore, are my own fault! :)

Second, I can accept your initial posit/idea that Jesus becomes the heir of the Sinai Covenant. But it seems that everything you stated after that, becomes all wrapped up in this. It seems to me that it places Jesus into a box, out of which His Deity may not assert itself, since it is in the box of this Covenant.

If Jesus is truly God (hypostatic union here), then any Covenant at all is immaterial. His assumption into heaven must be based on his DEITY alone, and not related to any Covenant. To say that His Assumption is dependent upon his fulfillment of the Covenant, seems to be dangerously close to equating him with Moses, or Elijah, both holy men no doubt, but hardly Divine, who needed to fulfill their destiny as determined by God. It would seem then that this Covenant becomes a "destiny" of Jesus the Man, and not of Jesus, He Who Is God. This presents, in my mind, a problem of reconciliation between the two natures of Christ, and I'm pretty sure this would be a problem in Orthodox theology.

If I am understanding your post correctly, you are saying, in effect, that this Covenant is what makes His Assumption into Heaven possible, whereas the Orthodox view, insofar as I understand it, would state instead, paraphrasing: Jesus, being Fully God, can do pretty much whatever He wants, within the Will of the Father. If this Sinai Covenant you speak of, is an Orthodox teaching (I've never heard it in these terms, but rather in Protestant terms of "old covenant/new covenant) then I certainly won't quibble! :)

I really hope I understood your post in the fullness of what you were trying to express. If not, please excuse the above and help me understand better. :)