Temple

[apone]

Hi,

Im trying to understand the need for blood sacrafices in Ezekiels Temple.As far as i can tell it is the millinium temple.Our lord was the perfect sacrafice.Why then would we need any other?please help.

[CharlesYTK]

Good day to you.

The Sacrifices are not all for sin offerings. Many of them are fellowship and praise type offering. Tabernacles is a good example and that is a fest that is manditory in the coming Kingdom, for all nations. Zech 14. And some are used as memorials to remember the work of Messiah.
you will notice that in the list of sacrifices and festivals of Ezekiels Temple, there is no Yom Kippur. This is the one that is fulfilled by Yeshuas blood and which he officiates as our high priest in the temple of heaven, from which all the others were fashioned. So The Atonement is not even to be brought to mind.

[apone]

Hi,

Thank you so much for your help.I appreciate your time.In Ezekiel 43 18-27 and Ezekiel 45 18-20 the Word speaks of sin offering.I would love further insight from you...im really stuck on this one.

Ron

[Sephania]

I believe that that is talking about the second temple, not the third. Ezekiel is given this vision, he is in Babylonian captivity. The first temple now has been destroyed during his lifetime and he is prophecying about the next temple to come. The day he starts his prophecy is important also, note in the beginnning of Chapter 40 it was the 14th year since Jerusalem had been captured, and it is the beginning of the year, the first month of Nisan, on the tenth day. the tenth day of Nisan is the day that the Pasache lambs are selected and taken in. :)

[CharlesYTK]

I don't agree on this one Zayit. The descriptions of the Ezekiel Temple and how it is officiated does not match the 2nd temple. And the Yom Kippur is not there either. lots of differences. I believe this to be the Millenial Temple.

Sin offerings? What you have asked about are the purification offerings for the altar and for the house. The First in Ch 43 is the purification or this new temple as it begin to operate. The passage in Ch 45 is purification for the beginning of the (I believe) first new sacred year and to prepare for the coming Passover. Each time the temple service enters a cycle of special services the temple, altar, artifacs and the priests ned to be purified.

[visionary]

Good day to you.

The Sacrifices are not all for sin offerings. Many of them are fellowship and praise type offering. Tabernacles is a good example and that is a fest that is manditory in the coming Kingdom, for all nations. Zech 14. And some are used as memorials to remember the work of Messiah.
you will notice that in the list of sacrifices and festivals of Ezekiels Temple, there is no Yom Kippur. This is the one that is fulfilled by Yeshuas blood and which he officiates as our high priest in the temple of heaven, from which all the others were fashioned. So The Atonement is not even to be brought to mind.
Grain offerings, Fruit of the Spirit offerings, Thank offerings, what a joyous time it will be.

[apone]

Hi Guys,

Im not talking about any of the other offerings,not the rituals to make the alter ready .Im talking about sin offerings for the people.Ezekiel 45 vs17 sin offering for the house of Israel.I am sorry if i seem thick..im just reading it that way...sin offering to cover the sins of Israel...right?

Thank you ,Ron

[Katydid]

OK all I can say is that you are right, it does say sin offerings. Beyond that, I have no clue.

The only thing I can think of is that I believe the sacrifices, the actual thing being sacrificed, was not as important as the act of doing it. Basically, I believe that the object being sacrificed was never enough to cleanse the sins of the person doing it. I believe that the faith they had and their "heart state"? is what was important. Perhaps it has to do with that same concept. Yes, Yeshua covered the sins and made a sin sacrifice not needed, but I also believe that perhaps the act of it is more a matter of reminding us to repent than it is anything else. Does that make sense because I truly don't know if it does?

[apone]

Hi,


Thanks so much for your reply.Yes that does make sense to me.I really believe that everything that g-d instituded is good.I believe our Lord was here not to replace but to reform something good into something better.Ive really been praying about this one.ive only been doing this for about a year so if any of you vetrans of scripture have any insight...please chime in.....any thoughts at all...let the holy spirit guide you.

Ron

[Henaynei]

A point of view:

We know that sacrifices themselves never brought atonement - for sacrifices without the correct kavanah were worse than useless according to scripture - they were actually offensive to HaShem - so sacrifices were important but the had to be coupled with an obedient and willing heart.

So, what was the importance of the sacrifice? Prior to Yeshua they looked forward in trust and hope to the REAL payment of the debt.

Then the debt was paid.

When, may it be soon, the Temple is restored and the sacrifices begin again they will be much as they previously were - with the exception that they look BACK in trust and gratitude to the REAL payment of the debt. And just like those of the past - only the sacrifices with kavanah - that come from a heart of a people in whom t'shuvah and obedience are realities - will be a "pleasing aroma" to HaShem.

[apone]

Thats a great answer...really gives me something to think about.Thanks so much


Ron

[charley_brown_eyes]

i understand from reading around here (the messianicism forum) that the sacrafices are still ok even after Jesus' death and all... but what were they for in the first place if they didn't take away sins?

[CharlesYTK]

The sacrifices serve as sort of an object lesson, (although it is deeper than this). It shows us that every time we sin, we should repent, and made restitution if it is needed, but the penalty of wrong nd the violation of that sin in the eternal can only be covered by someone else. We can not pay for our own sins. The animal that dies in our place in a sin offering is sort of a place holder that looked forward to the blood of Messiah that would one day be shed for all. All that sin offering is temorary until Messiah. Since messiah those offerings would look back at that blood of Messiah just as the animals blood before Messiah looked forward to that blood of Messiah.

Now any of my Jewish brothers reading this will have some difficulty because God does not allow Human sacrifice and therefore Yeshua can not be a sin offering for the Atonement. First let me say that Yeshua man not just a Human man. It was God himself who took on Human flesh to be Messiah, and so it is not just human blood but Gods own sacrifice, whereby he redeems us.

Another point is that the idea that one mans blood might atone for the nation(s), is not really foreign to Judaism. Didn't the high prist prophesy "It is fit that one man should die rather than the whole nation perish." In the story of Isaac when Abraham returns from the mountain, it says that Abraham returned to the young men. Isaac is missing, like Abraham returned without him. I have ben told that some of the sages believed that Isaac was actually killed and burned in that sacrifice and then God resrrected him like 3 days later. In a comment concerning Isaac in the Midrash Rabah I am told that it says that "The askes of Isaac are heaped up as a testimony for the salvation of Israel" Other sages believe that when the knife of Abraham touched Isaacs throat that Isaac died his spirit left him and then retuned to him when the Goat was given as a substitute. So Isaac had a short death experience. In any case the testimony was that Araham was willing to sacrifice Isaac because he believed Adonai would resurrect him to fulfill the promise of the covenant.

Any other information on these words of the sages would be welcome. My version of the Mishrash Rabah is a modern translation and seems to be worded a bit diferent from the quotes I have found from others.

[apone]

Thank you so much......that makes sense to me


Ron

[Tavita]

I hope it's ok if I step in to ask a question.

Isn't Messiah the new Temple?
He said in John 2:22 "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
We're also told that we are the temple of the living G-d, because we're in Him. What use is there for another temple? Weren't the Temple's just types and shadows to show us the reality of the greater Temple, which is Yeshua Himself? If He is the greater Temple, again I ask, what use is there for another Temple built of the dust of the earth?

Sorry... not trying to be contentious.. :)

Tavita

[CharlesYTK]

I hope it's ok if I step in to ask a question.

Isn't Messiah the new Temple?
He said in John 2:22 "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
We're also told that we are the temple of the living G-d, because we're in Him. What use is there for another temple? Weren't the Temple's just types and shadows to show us the reality of the greater Temple, which is Yeshua Himself? If He is the greater Temple, again I ask, what use is there for another Temple built of the dust of the earth?

Sorry... not trying to be contentious.. :)

Tavita
It's OK to ask as long as you realize there may not be a clear answer for this. Is Messiah the temple? Or are we the temple of the spirit? Is there more than one temple? Does the spiritual temple (That is, worship from the heart) replace the need for a physical temple? Or is the only true Temple the one in heaven which was the pattern for the Tabernacle and is it this tabernacle that is brought down FROM Heaven AFTER Messiah begins to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? Was Ezekiels temple the one in heaven rather than one that will be on earth? Or was Ezekiel a false prophet? (No I do not think he was)

Yeshua says that "When you see the abominations standing in the holy place" as spoken of by Daniel, as time marker for the end times. (Some say on a wing of the temple) But when we go to Daniel the wording is different, it says "on a wing abominations until the end" (No temple mentioned in Daniel) Some assume this to mean "On a wing of the temple" and it gets translated this way in some NT translations. But in the Hebrew it is not that fixed. The word for "Wing" is "Kanaph" which also means wind or mighty wind like the burst from a large birds wing.. and what is implied in this double meaning used here is that the abominations will rush in like a might wind, like the blast from a birds wing. This matches parallel scriptures that say that desolations will come upon them like a flood, (which means flash flood the only kind experienced in Israel, and happens after a heavy rain in the mountains and all the whaddy's suddenly overflow in a flood, without warning). This fits, and eliminates any temple being built BEFORE the lord returns. (which is my conviction here. no temple required before the lord returns). So there is a lot of room for study here to get to the bottom of all this.

Yes I have only proposed more questions, but they are all things that need to be addressed before we can really say we understand this.

Since Messiah will rule on the earth I believe there must be some sort of seat of his government in Jerusalem and the Temple mount is Gods own property and he always makes that clear. So it seems something must sit there after the Lord returns. But it very well could be that which comes down from heaven, this will be placed there. For that temple is made without hands.

[Tavita]

Or is the only true Temple the one in heaven which was the pattern for the Tabernacle and is it this tabernacle that is brought down FROM Heaven AFTER Messiah begins to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? Was Ezekiels temple the one in heaven rather than one that will be on earth? Or was Ezekiel a false prophet? (No I do not think he was)
Very good questions! :thumbsup:

I have been thinking for awhile that maybe Ezekiels Temple IS the heavenly temple. There is much to think about in this subject, I agree. But it still doesn't answer the question as to the sacrifice for sin. Anyway, I'll check in tomorrow, it's very late here.

Tavita

[ShirChadash]

It's OK to ask as long as you realize there may not be a clear answer for this. Is Messiah the temple? Or are we the temple of the spirit? Is there more than one temple? Does the spiritual temple (That is, worship from the heart) replace the need for a physical temple? Or is the only true Temple the one in heaven which was the pattern for the Tabernacle and is it this tabernacle that is brought down FROM Heaven AFTER Messiah begins to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? Was Ezekiels temple the one in heaven rather than one that will be on earth? Or was Ezekiel a false prophet? (No I do not think he was)

Yeshua says that "When you see the abominations standing in the holy place" as spoken of by Daniel, as time marker for the end times. (Some say on a wing of the temple) But when we go to Daniel the wording is different, it says "on a wing abominations until the end" (No temple mentioned in Daniel) Some assume this to mean "On a wing of the temple" and it gets translated this way in some NT translations. But in the Hebrew it is not that fixed. The word for "Wing" is "Kanaph" which also means wind or mighty wind like the burst from a large birds wing.. and what is implied in this double meaning used here is that the abominations will rush in like a might wind, like the blast from a birds wing. This matches parallel scriptures that say that desolations will come upon them like a flood, (which means flash flood the only kind experienced in Israel, and happens after a heavy rain in the mountains and all the whaddy's suddenly overflow in a flood, without warning). This fits, and eliminates any temple being built BEFORE the lord returns. (which is my conviction here. no temple required before the lord returns). So there is a lot of room for study here to get to the bottom of all this.

Yes I have only proposed more questions, but they are all things that need to be addressed before we can really say we understand this.

Since Messiah will rule on the earth I believe there must be some sort of seat of his government in Jerusalem and the Temple mount is Gods own property and he always makes that clear. So it seems something must sit there after the Lord returns. But it very well could be that which comes down from heaven, this will be placed there. For that temple is made without hands. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aktion/action-smiley-033.gif

Excellent post, Charles.

[visionary]

I go for this time period until Yeshua returns the true temple is us inwhom the HOly Spirit is to dwell fully. True we ahve not reached the point of fulness, as in tranfigured like Yeshua on the mount, but with Pentecost we have had a fire lit that has not yet been put out.

As far as the building.. Temple of God, there in lies the controversy...for we know that it is prophectic that someone wants to sit as God really bad in there. He can not even think of doing it in heaven, that leaves him to try here on earth. Kind of like the climax of the story, where just as it looks like the bad guy has won it all, then the true Hero of our story comes to the rescue and saves us all, and in this case become our true King of Kings.

We know that the Dome is not the Temple of God. We know that that is the location that God said is His spot. We know that there are many people who are working hard behind the scenes to bring about the construction and rededication of the Temple. If it occurs, then the stage is set. The players on the last scene will come into place and the curtain will come up and all will see the last big scene in which we watch Satan go from winning the world over to losing it all in the end to Yeshua at His return.

[By Grace]

But in the Hebrew it is not that fixed. The word for "Wing" is "Kanaph" which also means wind or mighty wind like the burst from a large birds wing.. and what is implied in this double meaning used here is that the abominations will rush in like a might wind, like the blast from a birds wing. This matches parallel scriptures that say that desolations will come upon them like a flood,
Could this possibly mean an atomic bomb or some other nuclear blast of some sort? I know that's kind of extreme, but just curious.

[CharlesYTK]

Could this possibly mean an atomic bomb or some other nuclear blast of some sort? I know that's kind of extreme, but just curious.
Don't think so as that would render it unusable and I believe God plans on using that piece of real estate.