What is this healing by touch?

[Khrissy78]

I dont understand what is behind the whole touching a person then they fall to the floor and are healed. What is this? I know that Jesus was able to heal by touch and I know that he gave His gift of healing to some of his diciples so does this mean that He also gives this gift to those who preform it today? Watching it on tv seems kinda strange to me. I know of someone who said that he has experinced this kind of healing but I just dont quite understand what its all about. What is it called, how does it work and what type of religion preforms this? If anyone could explain I would really appreciate it.

[vinc]

Khrissy, this is a very good question posted.

God has bestowed many Spiritual Gifts to His Children and Servants on earth to live victorious christian lives and also to be equipped for ministry.

Gift of Healing is also one such gift. Every Child of God may or may not have all the gifts. But, we are exhorted by Apostle Paul to covet earnestly the Spiritual Gifts.

What you have observed on TV about people falling down is termed as "Being slain in the Spirit" by Charimatic and/or Pentecostal Christians all over the world. This a big craze going-on in these circles in these modern times.

They say that one gets filled with the Power of Holy Spirit and hence falls down.

This is really unscriptural as there is no such experience mentioned in the Bible (both in the OT and the NT).

People possessed with demons fall down after the demon(s) in them leave(s) them. After sometime they regain consciousness. This is well-known.

But, people falling down as they are filled with the Holy Spirit is a phenomenon never experienced by any of the Disciples of Lord Jesus Christ when they were involved in ministry and neither did Apostle Paul experience such happenings during his ministry. So, there is really no mention of this "falling down" phenomenon in the Bible.

I have recieved the Baptism of Holy Spirit and i never fell down. And the result of my Holy Spirit Baptism experience was that i became very holy from the inside too. The Lust of eyes vanished and i was a changed person.

Pls be cautious with regard to this kind of "falling down" experience. This could also be Personal Hypnotism or Hypnotism by the Religious Leader or Demonic possession. Coz there are a flood of evil spirits existing in the world. Satanists have entered into Christendom posing themselves as Christian Leaders/Pastors/Evangelists and slowly deceiving the innocent and gullible people passing them false doctrine and false gospel. However, they are able to decieve only those who are not strongly rooted and grounded in the Word of God. This is the reason why we ought to be deep students of the Word of God.

Pls ask the Lord to fill you the genuine Baptism of Holy Spirit and not any counterfeit one.

JMO, Lord Bless you,
Vincent :)

(P.S :- A few maybe genuinely getting healed even while attending such false crusades/meetings because God is merciful and kind enough to heal the sincere-hearted human who attends these meetings. But, that does not mean that everything that goes on in these meetings are approved by God.)

[12volt_man]

I dont understand what is behind the whole touching a person then they fall to the floor and are healed. What is this? I know that Jesus was able to heal by touch and I know that he gave His gift of healing to some of his diciples so does this mean that He also gives this gift to those who preform it today? Watching it on tv seems kinda strange to me. I know of someone who said that he has experinced this kind of healing but I just dont quite understand what its all about. What is it called, how does it work and what type of religion preforms this? If anyone could explain I would really appreciate it.

Simply put, it's bogus.

As vince pointed out, there isn't any scriptural support for such a practice. In many cases, it goes directly against scriptural teaching.

[Khrissy78]

Thank you both!

[Caelum]

What this is, is a GREAT marketing technique devised by those who are bold enough to exploit the pseudo-power of the Holy Spirit. With a $500 donation to the guy who does the magical healing, he will even say your REAL name on TV during a prayer! Oooh Ahhh!!

It's a joke, its a mimic to take yours and my money. If you need someone to pray for you, IM me anytime, its free :)

[vinc]

No mention Khrissy. Yw. A few of them maybe genuine.

I have found this paragraph from the Book - At The Master's Feet by Sadhu Sundar Singh (A twentieth century Apostle of India).

Our Lord Jesus Christ spoke to him thus, "Sometimes it happens that when I enter into My children and fill them with the fullness of the Spirit, they overflow with such divine happiness and joy that they are not able to endure the glory and blessing that is theirs, and so fall into a state of faintness or even unconsciousness. For flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor temporal things those which are eternal, until men are set free from the power of vain mortality and raised into glory (1 Cor. xv.50,53; Rom. viii.19-22). Then shall My will be done on earth in every creature, even as it is done in heaven. Then shall pain and suffering, sorrow and sighing, woe and death be for ever done away, and all My children shall enter into the kingdom of My Father, which is joy in the Holy Ghost, and they shall reign for ever and ever (Rom. xiv.17; Rev. xxi.4; xxii.5)."

This wonderful book can be read completely at http://www.believerscafe.com/feet.html

So, the above para gives us clear clues that few of such cases maybe genuine too. However, the Bible does not throw light on this phenomenon. And Satan may also takes advantage in this area to introduce his counterfeit experience too.

So, we have to be really very cautious while seeking this experience. Anyway we really cannot judge people who have this kind of experience.

[Friendship]

becareful with your words of condemnation as there are many ways in which God touches people Acts 4 verse 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal: and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus lets reflect right or wrong for a minute do you think that if the power of God came upon you like a burning fire so strongly that you would be able to stand up? Yes there are false prophets and false teachers and false healers but you best be certain lest you speak against a man of God.
Maybe you should attend a crusade before you pass judgement and if the tv evangelist you speak of is Benny Hinn I would really rethink my judgement he never takes credit for anything that happens when people try to thank him he wont except it saying I have not the power to heal only the Lord can do that.

[Endure2]

uhhh....krissy...uhmm. :eek:

its not bogus either.

anyone who tells you it is either a liar, or their just genuinely decieved.
i dont say this becuase I KNOW ALOT, or becuase I LIKE TO BRING CONFLICT.

but the bible teaches their is power in touch, why? i dont know.
but the bible does set forth the doctrine of power being transfered through touch or a point of contact.

in the book of acts paul annointed clothes that had touched his body, and sent them to people he couldnt reach, and when they got the cloth, they got healed.
there was a woman who only touched the hem of Jesus garment, and was healed becuase virtue went out of him into her by the contact and she was healed, and Jesus didnt know it had happened until after it happened.
people were healed simply getting in peters shadow when he walked by, it was a point of contact.
a man was raised from the dead, when his dead body was thrown into the tomb of elisha and touched elishas bones, even though elisha wasnt their to pray or even on earth, but it was just his bones.
the bible says in james 5.14 that having the elders of the church touch or annoint you with oil while they pray for you, can heal you.

paul told timothy that timothy received his gifts when paul had LAID HANDS ON HIM.

and the bible does speak of people doing things like falling down.
the bible speaks of people who had experiences with God, like long visions and things.
paul said he was caught up into the 3rd heavon and saw things that werent lawful to speak of, what do you think your natural body does when that happens? it lays down untill God pretty much puts you back in it.
john wrote the whole book of revelations from visions were he went places and did things with angels and beasts that dont exist on earth.
what do you think his body was doing at that time? i guess it was laying on the ground untill john came out of the vision.
jeremiah had a vision of an angel and he said he fell face down to the ground and could not move.

but even more clearly said than that...
in acts 10.10 the bible said that peter FELL INTO A TRANCE... when God began to show him the vision.

it is real.

if God can make people blind for a time, like the scorcerer in the book of acts.
if God can make people mute, like john the baptists father.
if God can make people fall into trances like peter.
then yes this can happen.
its not bogus.

i do not deny that pentecostalism and charismatic churches, which i happen to be a proud member of, is the prime arena for fruits nuts and flakes, we're the biggest cereal bowl in the world. there has been alot of lies come out of it especcially during the 80's.

but it doesnt mean the foundations of it arent true. and it doesnt mean some of the preachers in it arent real true powerful men of God.
it doesnt mean that people speaking in tongues and being slain in the spirit and shaking and shouting isnt real.

it was the great John wesley, who not many people would ever dare to criticise becuase most of us are here becuase of his ministries, who would hold meetings and preach to 30,000 people with no sound systems, and say "dont sit in the trees, becuase when the power of God comes youll fall down..." HAHA, PRAISE GOD! MAN THATS WHAT MY HEART BURNS TO SEE AGAIN!

[plmarquette]

What this is, is a GREAT marketing technique devised by those who are bold enough to exploit the pseudo-power of the Holy Spirit. With a $500 donation to the guy who does the magical healing, he will even say your REAL name on TV during a prayer! Oooh Ahhh!!

It's a joke, its a mimic to take yours and my money. If you need someone to pray for you, IM me anytime, its free :)
Luke 9.1 authority of the 12 ; any sick , heal them
Luke 10.9 the authority of the faithful , any sick ,heal them
Mark 16.16-20 the authority of the name , lay upon hands and heal
Mark 11.23-4 ; Isaiah 55.10 ; 1 John 5.14-18 authority of the word
James 5.12-15 anointing with oil , healing the sick
1 Corinthians 12 . 1-12 gift of healing(s) , special faith , miracles
to name a few ....:groupray:

[Caelum]

Luke 9.1 authority of the 12 ; any sick , heal them
Luke 10.9 the authority of the faithful , any sick ,heal them
Yes, the 12 apostles, not Benny Hinn. Do any of the 12 apostles live today?
Mark 16.16-20 the authority of the name , lay upon hands and heal
Mark 16:17 implies that with the power of jesus you can overcome evil influence, why do you take this literally? Mark 16:18 refers to the prophecy fulfilled in Acts 28:1-6...Go drink some cyanide and tell me what happens, I have yet to see Benny Hinn perform that on stage!
What does Mark 16:19 have to do with anything(regarding this issue)? Mark 16:20 refers to the disciples of his time, obviously.
Mark 11.23-4 ; Isaiah 55.10 ; 1 John 5.14-18 authority of the word
Mark 11:23-24(Once again, finding it hard to see how this is relevant, however; i'll show you my stance in comparison to Matthew 21:21-22):
"You and I will never have the faith that a mountain can be hurled into the sea. It is a logical impossibility. No rational man can honestly believe it could happen. And so it will never happen, because it is not possible for a man to have true faith without doubt that a mountain will throw itself into the sea. If that level of faith were possible then it could happen, but it isn't, so it doesn't.
What is your mountain? What perplexing problem rises up like an immovable mountain between you and God? Faith can and will move it, though maybe through the back-breaking work that shatters it into smaller stones instead of a mountain-moving miracle. Is a mountain moved by perseverance any less moved than one moved by a miracle? In either case, faith moved the mountain."
This should cover that. No further explanation necessary.
What about Isaiah 55:10???
In regards to 1 John 5:14-18, when was the Authority of the Word challenged by any of my statements?
James 5.12-15 anointing with oil , healing the sick Uhm, James 5:12 and?
James 5:13 also, and?
James 5:14, yes, praying for fellow saints has always been encouraged, and?
James 5:15 And???? :sleep:
1 Corinthians 12 . 1-12 gift of healing(s) , special faith , miracles
1 Corinithians 12 has always been a chapter of much debate...the conversation regarding this chapter would have to include specific doctrinal viewpoints which would naturally conflict, therefore; if you'd like to procede, im more than apt to do so, because thus far your basis for this is pretty flacid...you have only provided one chapter with a decent arguement which is worthy of discussion, so how do you perceive this particular chapter? Answer and I will reply with mine.

However; my stance remains that such tactics are nothing more than marketing related, and those who fall for it typically belong to the charismatic movement which is comprised of several dungeons and dragons fans trying to turn something into the supernatural thats not... :)
Peas out carrots!
:prayer:

[Caelum]

uhhh....krissy...uhmm. :eek:

its not bogus either.

anyone who tells you it is either a liar, or their just genuinely decieved.
i dont say this becuase I KNOW ALOT, or becuase I LIKE TO BRING CONFLICT.

but the bible teaches their is power in touch, why? i dont know.
but the bible does set forth the doctrine of power being transfered through touch or a point of contact.

in the book of acts paul annointed clothes that had touched his body, and sent them to people he couldnt reach, and when they got the cloth, they got healed.
there was a woman who only touched the hem of Jesus garment, and was healed becuase virtue went out of him into her by the contact and she was healed, and Jesus didnt know it had happened until after it happened.
people were healed simply getting in peters shadow when he walked by, it was a point of contact.
a man was raised from the dead, when his dead body was thrown into the tomb of elisha and touched elishas bones, even though elisha wasnt their to pray or even on earth, but it was just his bones.
the bible says in james 5.14 that having the elders of the church touch or annoint you with oil while they pray for you, can heal you.

paul told timothy that timothy received his gifts when paul had LAID HANDS ON HIM.

and the bible does speak of people doing things like falling down.
the bible speaks of people who had experiences with God, like long visions and things.
paul said he was caught up into the 3rd heavon and saw things that werent lawful to speak of, what do you think your natural body does when that happens? it lays down untill God pretty much puts you back in it.
john wrote the whole book of revelations from visions were he went places and did things with angels and beasts that dont exist on earth.
what do you think his body was doing at that time? i guess it was laying on the ground untill john came out of the vision.
jeremiah had a vision of an angel and he said he fell face down to the ground and could not move.

but even more clearly said than that...
in acts 10.10 the bible said that peter FELL INTO A TRANCE... when God began to show him the vision.

it is real.

if God can make people blind for a time, like the scorcerer in the book of acts.
if God can make people mute, like john the baptists father.
if God can make people fall into trances like peter.
then yes this can happen.
its not bogus.

i do not deny that pentecostalism and charismatic churches, which i happen to be a proud member of, is the prime arena for fruits nuts and flakes, we're the biggest cereal bowl in the world. there has been alot of lies come out of it especcially during the 80's.

but it doesnt mean the foundations of it arent true. and it doesnt mean some of the preachers in it arent real true powerful men of God.
it doesnt mean that people speaking in tongues and being slain in the spirit and shaking and shouting isnt real.

it was the great John wesley, who not many people would ever dare to criticise becuase most of us are here becuase of his ministries, who would hold meetings and preach to 30,000 people with no sound systems, and say "dont sit in the trees, becuase when the power of God comes youll fall down..." HAHA, PRAISE GOD! MAN THATS WHAT MY HEART BURNS TO SEE AGAIN!

All of this is trite and taking the bible out of context, like your homeboy below, please provide specific passages and i'll reply. God has the power to do anything, indeed, however; needs no man to accomplish them. How important do you think you are? Or Benny Hinn is? Not important or special at all, God's will shall be done with or without man's help/approval. Moving on...

[Ponder]

the healing touch this is wat i know about it
its when u use ur hand to get the bad engery of a certian body
this is then replaced by a good/healthy enegry
now weather this is the holi spirt, or not it works
it it heal like instantly it just really takes away the pain,
i know how to use it, and it works weather this is a gift from god
i dont know
and ive had it dont to me when i had a really bad pain in my neck,
i did it to my mum when she broke her leg and it worked it made the pain alot less
it works
it not the devil
and if people make you 500 for it ur a twit most natupaths do it for about 45 an hour

thats all i can say
Ponder

[Caelum]

the healing touch this is wat i know about it
its when u use ur hand to get the bad engery of a certian body
this is then replaced by a good/healthy enegry
now weather this is the holi spirt, or not it works
it it heal like instantly it just really takes away the pain,
i know how to use it, and it works weather this is a gift from god
i dont know
and ive had it dont to me when i had a really bad pain in my neck,
i did it to my mum when she broke her leg and it worked it made the pain alot less
it works
it not the devil
and if people make you 500 for it ur a twit most natupaths do it for about 45 an hour

thats all i can say
Ponder

Can you read my palm too?

[Friendship]

Well for starters one of the original twelve hung hisself because he betrayed Jesus.
Paul who was Saul had these same abilities through the power of the Spirit and he was not one of the twelve also why would God do something for the people back then and not now since he is the same yesterday today and forever and also you can not drink poison to prove God's power as this is tempting God and as Jesus told satan when he was tempted Thou shalt NOt tempt The Lord thy God, so as far as the snake handling thing goes that falls under that as well but when Paul was bit by a snake he just shook it off and kept going as this is what was meant by they will be bitten and it wont kill them or drink poison and it wont kill them in other words if I pray over my food before I eat it even if it was tainted and I did not know it it would not harm me as through prayer and faith the food is cleansed. Bottom line if God would do it then he would do it now as he is the same yesterday today and forever!

[Tavita]

During church services or rallies etc, a lot of people go out for prayer, not only for healing but just to have this 'touch'. They go out thinking if they have this 'touch' it will somehow make them better christians, their relationship with the Lord will improve, maybe God will give them a prophetic word, or they will just plain get a beautiful 'feeling'. I know because I used to, and most of the time I fell down because it was expected of me. We were all given the impression that if we didn't, there was something wrong with us, spiritually. And after a good session of falling down and having the warm fuzzy feeling, I would go home and behave exactly the same as I always did. It made no difference in my life, whatsoever. None at all. The times I was healed physically, were times when I did not 'feel' anything, except maybe a warm or funny feeling at the place that needed healing. If you want your relationship with the Lord to improve, or to become a better christian, or you need sin dealt with (go confess your sin to another) or you need a word from Him ---- Go spend lots of good quality time with your Savior, one on one. Get into the word to find direction for your life.
I'm not saying that you can't go to people for ministry and healing... by all means go. But that 'touch' thing... the falling down... isn't true ministry, it's a diversion FROM true ministry and counsel. And while you're receiving true ministry the Spirit anoints you so much you can't stand... Wow! That's the blessing!

[12volt_man]

No mention Khrissy. Yw. A few of them maybe genuine.

I have found this paragraph from the Book - At The Master's Feet by Sadhu Sundar Singh (A twentieth century Apostle of India).

Our Lord Jesus Christ spoke to him thus, "Sometimes it happens that when I enter into My children and fill them with the fullness of the Spirit, they overflow with such divine happiness and joy that they are not able to endure the glory and blessing that is theirs, and so fall into a state of faintness or even unconsciousness.

So, when "Jesus" told him this, he didn't happen to mention where in scripture these things can be found, did He?

[Caelum]

*yawn*, I rest my case...im gonna go stare at some blacklight posters and watch benny hinn now

[Endure2]

caelum
you are very incorrect,
if the bible gives instances of people receiving the power of God by coming into contact with a certain object, we cant deny the significance of that.
and if the bible gives instances of people falling into trances under the power of God, we cant deny the significance of that.

it doesnt really matter what you think, the bible says touch can transfer power and it says people can fall down under the power of God.
you can drive yourself into all the madness you want to and insist on disagreeing, but your simply wrong.
if you do not know the bible well enough to know the authenticity and general location of the passages i refered to already, im sorry, but no i do not have to go to the extra effort to bring them to your attention just becuase youd like me to to satisfy your scepticism.
your reply was never something i valued or desired to have.

if you think the will of God will come to pass regardless, then you are simply wrong, becuase the bible says we have not becuase we ask not, and we perish for lack of knowledge and often, there where times when God searched for a man, and that the eyes of God go to and fro throughout the whole earth looking for a man to show himself strong in, and when God would bring a miracle he would send a man to cause that to happen.
if you think we all are unimportant and meaningless you are again simply wrong, the bible clearly says that Jesus is the head of the church as we are all fitly stones in the body of Christ, and paul clearly told us that we can say to no part of the body that it is not important.

[Athanasian Creed]

Only during the Apostolic age was power given to a select few to heal, not only by touch but by their very appearance. This was to authenticate the message they brought since the canon of the New Testament had yet to be completed. There seems a point even in Paul's ministry where the gift of healing had past, proving the gift not to be a permanent one but only for a specific point in time -

Philippians 2:25-30 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation: Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

If one looks at the Churches history, one sees that such sign gifts such as healing not mentioned from the beginning of the 2nd century to the 20th century. It is only in the supposed "latter days" of the Church do we see it's emphasis again - some may see it as a restoration of the apostolic age before the return of Christ while others see it as the beginning of the apostacy - an emphasis on "signs and wonders" rather than on the surety of God's Word leading to duplicity and delusion when men will judge what is from God by their experiences rather than on the sure Word of God. ;)

When the Apostle's healed, it was not dependant on being in a "crusade", "under the anointing" They healed/cast out demons where ever they went, in the midst of hostile non-believers at times. What you see on TV is charlatans greedy for $$$ - hardly 1st century Christianity in ANY way.

BTW, i do believe God heals providencially but NOT as a rule. My mother was healed (medically proven) of a brain tumour. The doctor was astonished when he did a 2nd set of x-rays to discover nothing where 10 days previous there was indeed a growth. She was able to witness to God's providence and power. However, 11 years later, she died after suffering almost 4 years with Lou Gehrig's disease all the while believing God could heal her but prayed that His perfect will would be done.


Ray :wave:

[Caelum]

caelum
you are very incorrect,
if the bible gives instances of people receiving the power of God by coming into contact with a certain object, we cant deny the significance of that.
and if the bible gives instances of people falling into trances under the power of God, we cant deny the significance of that.

it doesnt really matter what you think, the bible says touch can transfer power and it says people can fall down under the power of God.
you can drive yourself into all the madness you want to and insist on disagreeing, but your simply wrong.
if you do not know the bible well enough to know the authenticity and general location of the passages i refered to already, im sorry, but no i do not have to go to the extra effort to bring them to your attention just becuase youd like me to to satisfy your scepticism.
your reply was never something i valued or desired to have.

if you think the will of God will come to pass regardless, then you are simply wrong, becuase the bible says we have not becuase we ask not, and we perish for lack of knowledge and often, there where times when God searched for a man, and that the eyes of God go to and fro throughout the whole earth looking for a man to show himself strong in, and when God would bring a miracle he would send a man to cause that to happen.
if you think we all are unimportant and meaningless you are again simply wrong, the bible clearly says that Jesus is the head of the church as we are all fitly stones in the body of Christ, and paul clearly told us that we can say to no part of the body that it is not important.

blah blah blah, if youre not willing to put in the "grueling" effort of backing up your statements with scriptural reference, why bother posting with the intent to challenge? Don't start a fire youre not willing to put out...refer to the post right after yours. Case closed. :D

[Endure2]

caelum
you said

"blah blah blah... Case closed. :D ?"

thats what you chose to say?

i rest my case. your nothing but an arrogant child. it was never a challenge, i could care less about challenging anyone.



anthanasian creed,
i see why you believe the way you do, but i honestly feel like everything you said was either

1.souly people generated opinions.
2.irrelevant.

except for the scripture you quoted from phillipians 2.

but even that only shows how one man failed to be healed for reasons we dont know becuase it wasnt expounded upon.
it doesnt change the truth that the bible saying Jesus was wounded for my transgressions and bruised for my iniquities and by his stripes i am healed, puts healing in the entire new covenant, period. thats what im obligated to believe, not an unexplained experience of anyman, even an apostle.
though i know the reasons i showed as why i believed the way i do were sometimes only peoples experienced also,
someone being healed by touch proves it can happen.
someone not being healed, doesnt do away with that, only shows that under certain circumstances it doesnt happen.

i know of no scripture that truely teaches that any of what Jesus or the apostles did died with them. only one that speaks of a time when the gifts will be done away with, but it cant apply to this day and age for various reasons.

i do not believe that anyone has a seclusive gift of touching or anything today or ever did under the new covenant.
though i do believe that the power and gifts of God are open for all to come and have them today becuase paul the "gift" is given to all, and anyone who will obey God and receive it can walk in it.
you may choose to disagree, but such things like healing by the laying on of hands and passing through peoples shadows and the raising of the dead has been reported as recent as the last 2 hundred years and i believe that it is happening. i know of no reason why i shouldnt, except for my own ability to be skeptical.

what i do find the bible saying and describing is events very similair to people being "slain in the spirit" and the power of God being transfered by contact.
not anything that says that ever had to end with an age or the death of a person.

this has prompted me to go search a few scriptures im unsure of out some more, and i will post them i feel its neccesary.
but anyway... do you see what im saying?

you may not care for me too, but if youd like for me to locate and actually post any scripture i spoke of out of true interest and not just to prolong an argument, then i will try to do that for you.

Godbless.
Lee.

[Athanasian Creed]

[QUOTE=Endure2] (snip)

anthanasian creed,
i see why you believe the way you do, but i honestly feel like everything you said was either

1.souly people generated opinions.
2.irrelevant.

Sorry to disagree strongly about it being either "souly (sic) people generated opinions or irrelevant" It is neither. Having been a Christian for over 30 years and having been of the Pentecostal/Charismatic persuasion previously for over 10 of those years, i speak from personal experience on healing.

except for the scripture you quoted from phillipians 2.
but even that only shows how one man failed to be healed for reasons we dont know becuase it wasnt expounded upon.
it doesnt change the truth that the bible saying Jesus was wounded for my transgressions and bruised for my iniquities and by his stripes i am healed, puts healing in the entire new covenant, period. thats what im obligated to believe, not an unexplained experience of anyman, even an apostle.

You believe because of the testimony of Paul, the Apostle in question. I'd be VERY careful about comparing your beliefs above those of Paul or saying that his experiences somehow don't count. That would be very foolish - he was highly favoured of God, the chiefest of Apostles and the greatest Christian ever to live - not glorying in Paul but just stating fact. If healing did not cease to be in operation why did not Paul just lay his hands on Epaphroditus and heal him ?? Why did he also leave
Trophimus sick as well ?? (2 Tim 4:20)

though i know the reasons i showed as why i believed the way i do were sometimes only peoples experienced also,
someone being healed by touch proves it can happen.
someone not being healed, doesnt do away with that, only shows that under certain circumstances it doesnt happen.

You would have been more accurate to say that only IF God wills a person to be healed will they be and that there are some very Godly persons who died of horrible diseases (i referenced my mom in an earlier post) who loved Jesus and believed in healing yet were not healed. Ya, ya, i've heard all the rhetoric from certain Christians who would say that it was a "lack of faith" or "she must have had sin in her life, that is why she wasn't healed" Not only are such people setting themselves up as judge and jury of another person in violation of Scripture BUT are also undermining the faith the person does have and causing all sort of grief for the person not healed.

i know of no scripture that truely teaches that any of what Jesus or the apostles did died with them. only one that speaks of a time when the gifts will be done away with, but it cant apply to this day and age for various reasons.

And those reasons are ?? Jesus said the faithless and unrepentant seek signs and wonders - the just live by faith, even in times of suffering when it seems God is 1,000,000 miles away and the heavens are like brass. God can receive just as much glory from a saint who dies in sickness yet maintains their faith despite their sufferings as He does from someone whom He heals.
Satan in the last days will bring about "signs and wonders" by his pawns the Antichrist and false prophet. Those who put their trust in their experiences rather than the surety of God's Word will be open to the deception that will come in those days (which is even happening in these days we live in)

(snip) you may choose to disagree, but such things like healing by the laying on of hands and passing through peoples shadows and the raising of the dead has been reported as recent as the last 2 hundred years and i believe that it is happening. i know of no reason why i shouldnt, except for my own ability to be skeptical.

The question is not CAN God do such things (of course He can) but WHY He would do such things - what would be the need. I could perhaps see it happening in places where they don't have the Word of God - in order to authenticate the message of the missionaries but not here in North America where we have the Word of God.


what i do find the bible saying and describing is events very similair to people being "slain in the spirit" and the power of God being transfered by contact.
not anything that says that ever had to end with an age or the death of a person.

You will never see a place in the Word where a believer falls backwards in God's presence. The only place in the NT where someone falls backwards in Christ's presence is in John 18 when the officers of the chief priest come to arrest Him. All others (believers) fell down forward or prostrate on the ground.

this has prompted me to go search a few scriptures im unsure of out some more, and i will post them i feel its neccesary.
but anyway... do you see what im saying?

I see clearly what you are saying - it is nothing new to me - i've heard it all before.

you may not care for me too, but if youd like for me to locate and actually post any scripture i spoke of out of true interest and not just to prolong an argument, then i will try to do that for you.

I do care for you - that's the reason for the interaction. Please post away and by all means back up your POV with Scripture .


Godbless.
Lee


God bless you too Lee



Ray :wave:

[Endure2]

hello again,

well i hope you do understand that your time spent in whatever part of christianity, cant influence my belief in what i do, it simply isnt wise to let such things be evidence in deciding my truths.
i hope you understand.


the answer to your question about paul is simply that we do not know why.
but what we do know, is what the book plainly says, so that is what we are obligated to believe. if the bible says healing is part of the new covenant then it it is. paul was not flawless, paul had flesh too, he did not get everything right, his experiences should not be considered as irrefutable or God inspired as scripture. paul made mistakes too.

well i believe that God wills for all to be healed, period. i dont believe God picks who to heal and who to not. the new covenant applies to us all, and all our sins, not just some and some of our sicknesses.
im not going to criticise your mother or anyone else, but i dont serve your mother, i serve God and what he says, thats what im obligated to do.
why wasnt your mother healed?... i dont know. what i do know is what the book says, and that is you can be healed, so thats what ill believe, your mother wasnt perfect, the book is.


The question is not CAN God do such things (of course He can) but WHY He would do such things - what would be the need. I could perhaps see it happening in places where they don't have the Word of God - in order to authenticate the message of the missionaries but not here in North America where we have the Word of God.


well the obvious answer is, it doesnt really matter whether you see why or not. people in america are sick too, and bottom line truth is that God wants them well, regardless of why they arent. the not wise thing to do is begin to say "God shouldnt do this... becuase well that isnt a very smart thing to do..." were the ones who cant get out of the bed in the morning without God, i mean, we dont wake ourselves up.
if God can do something, then God can do something, it can happen, its foolish a petty human who God found choking in his own blood helplessly and saved him, to begin to say "THATS NOT GOD...BECUASE I DONT SEE WHY HE WOULD DO THAT.." i mean...THERES A WHOLE LOT THAT WE DONT SEE!
WE REALLY ARENT ALL THAT SMART....

you said that people dont fall backward, they fall foward or prostate...
well if you want to let such reasoning influence you thats fine, but no i wont.

you said it was nothing to new to you, youve heard it all before, even the scriptures i did not tell you that i had thought of...
well friend if you choose to assume you already know all that i have to say... im not going to comment on that... but... ok then.

while i appreciate your concern for me, i wasnt asking whether or not you cared for me, though thankyou.

[Endure2]

i thought i should post this.
i dont enjoy debating over scripture, becuase i have found that truth is not found by analysing the facts, but rather hearing from the Lord, so i do not intend for these scriptures to be a new oppurtunity for debate. but this is why i believe the way i do.

matt 9.18
...but come and lay thy hand upon her and she shall live.
mrk 6.5
...he laid his hands on a few sick folk and he healed them.
mrk 5.23
... i pray thee, lay thy hands on her and she, that she may be healed...
mrk 16.18
...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.
acts 8.17-18
then laid their hands on them, and they received the holyghost.
...Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands the holygost was given...
acts 6.6
...and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
acts 13.3
and when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
acts 19.6
and when paul had laid his hands on them, they holyghost came upon them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied.
acts 28.8
...paul entered in, and prayed and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
luke 4.40
...and he laid his hands on everyone of them and healed them.
luke 13.13
and he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight and gloried God.

i just really dont know anything else to believe, except apparently there something to this laying hands on people. they could have written that they just prayed for them and God answered it, but very often they seemed to carefully make note of the fact they laid their hands on the people, so it seems to be the laying on of hands had something to do with it.

now i know as well as anyone else, there are phonies out there, there are fakes out there, but it seems to me because of the repeated descriptions in the bible, that this is how the new testament church ought to pray and deal with sicknesses and other issues. when you pray for a person, the bible teaches to lay your hands on them, and that is part of the biblical procedure of ministering to the sick and needy through Christ. this is how the church fathers did it, this is how our Lord and example did it, it is certainly wrong to lie and manipulate people, but the bible does teach that their is power in the laying on of hands. Jesus told us in mark, that we shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover if we believe, thats the way he laid it out for us. if you could just forget the part about the hands and it all still work the same, then i dont believe the wise God inspired men who wrote the book would have repeatedly placed it in the scriptures.

Lee.

[LegomasterJC]

I am one of those that has experienced this (the true form not the telivised showy form) It is not because the Holy Spirit fills you that you fall down. Not all people fall down either. My dad doesn't my mom does. There are also scriptural refrences of people falling down because of the power of God. My favorite is when Jesus says I am to the soldiers coming to get him and they all fall down at once. It is the power of God that humbles people to the ground. When I am slain in the Spirit, I feel much peace and love. That is completely different than the falling to the ground caused by demons. That kind comes with tenseness and writhing and anger.

[*zilverlokje*]

I've witnissed this kind of healing once too.
My friend had been stabbed, so I layed my hands on him and prayed for the wound to heal. That night the wound was already starting to heal, it was less painful and the bleeding had stopped. Two days later the wound was healed, totally gone..... it was as if it had never been there. :)

[Endure2]

amen!