The Daily Sacrifices.....

[Godz Marine]

Please excuse my ignorance! ;)

My question concerns the daily sacrifices and the present day nation of Israel: Why are not the daily sacrifices still offered today?

[simchat_torah]

Because currently there is no temple. G-d commanded that the sacrafices only be made 'in the place of his choosing'. That place is the temple. Currently it does not stand.

[Atkin]

Please excuse my ignorance! ;)

My question concerns the daily sacrifices and the present day nation of Israel: Why are not the daily sacrifices still offered today?Once the people were blessed to return, G-d is on their side to
build the temple..

G-d never holds back help for such an activity unless there is no desire from

his children to proceed.

Once back on the land, immediately a good child starts to obey and heed to build. That is how they rebuilt after the first return.

[simchat_torah]

Unfortunately, the Mosque (dome of the rock) stands in its way today. It would mean literally a revultionary war in the entire middle east... every country over there attacking Israel... if they decided to tear it down and build the temple.

*sigh*


someday. :(

[Godz Marine]

Unfortunately, the Mosque (dome of the rock) stands in its way today. It would mean literally a revultionary war in the entire middle east... every country over there attacking Israel... if they decided to tear it down and build the temple.

*sigh*


someday. :(
So is it that it was the Temple in Jerusalem that the sacrifices were to be offered, this being "the" temple? If so how would someone who lived hundreds of miles away be able to go to the temple twice a day? Or was it that the "high" priest offered up the daily sacrifices for the nation of Israel as a whole?

Thank you for your understanding and forebearance of my ignorances!

Shalom!

[simchat_torah]

The priests made the sacrafices for the community. One was only to commute a couple of times a year to the temple, and even then, they were not the ones making the sacrafice... it was the priest.

shalom,
yafet

[Atkin]

Unfortunately, the Mosque (dome of the rock) stands in its way today. It would mean literally a revultionary war in the entire middle east... every country over there attacking Israel... if they decided to tear it down and build the temple.

*sigh*


someday. :(

With G-d on one's side, nothing can stop the process.

[Godz Marine]

The priests made the sacrafices for the community. One was only to commute a couple of times a year to the temple, and even then, they were not the ones making the sacrafice... it was the priest.

shalom,
yafet
Thanks, that clears up a few things. Another question though if you do not mind.

Was there any significance concerning the sacrifices when the curtain within the temple was rent from top to bottom at the death of Christ?

[simchat_torah]

It was actually not the curtain inside that was torn, but the curtain on the outside... and yes, it does have implications. I'll dig up that stuff tommorow... off to bed for now

Shalom!
yafet

[Linda8]

Thanks, that clears up a few things. Another question though if you do not mind.

Was there any significance concerning the sacrifices when the curtain within the temple was rent from top to bottom at the death of Christ?
Was this actually witnessed by people and recorded in historical records?

If it was witnessed, this would be taught as part of studies of scripture and parts relating to temple practices.

[simchat_torah]

Was this actually witnessed by people and recorded in historical records?
Yes, its even in the Talmud.

[Hix]

Thankfully Ezekial spends 9 full chapters describing how the Temple will be rebuilt in the end times and animal sacrifice will be restored in full. When it is, the Jews will be able to resume whats known as the dual worship system.

Thankfully HaShem has said all we need do is pray unto him and we shall be saved, so for now its not essential that we should return to animal sacrifices. Pity about the dome of the rock though ive heard its the third holiest shrine in Islam so its gonna be pretty hard to move :(

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Linda8]

[/font]
Yes, its even in the Talmud.
Thanks. Did they mention His name at all or was it attributed to some other

event.?

[Charlesinflorida]

Thankfully Ezekial spends 9 full chapters describing how the Temple will be rebuilt in the end times and animal sacrifice will be restored in full. When it is, the Jews will be able to resume whats known as the dual worship system.

Thankfully HaShem has said all we need do is pray unto him and we shall be saved, so for now its not essential that we should return to animal sacrifices. Pity about the dome of the rock though ive heard its the third holiest shrine in Islam so its gonna be pretty hard to move :(

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

In Ezekeil all the sacrifices are in operation again in the Millenial Kingdom with the exception of Atonement, that one is conspicuosly missing. And I think that is beause that was fulfilled by the blood of Yeshua and is not to be repeated on earth again as it was officiated once or all in heaven.

The other feasts will serve as object lessons and festivals of remembeance, in a world where sin, sickness and the wages of sin and the cost of forgiveness might seem remote and almost out of thought, in a world ruled by Messiah.

Charles in Florida

[Charlesinflorida]

Thanks, that clears up a few things. Another question though if you do not mind.

Was there any significance concerning the sacrifices when the curtain within the temple was rent from top to bottom at the death of Christ?

Hi Marine,

I think the significance is that the Atonement (Yom Kippur) is suspended on earth in avor of the inal atonement made in heaven by Yeshua. You see the passover of Yeshuas death is more complicated than it appears, because his death on passover was for the deliverance rom bondage to the powers of Satan. His appearance before the throne of heaven and entering the holy place with his blood was the fulfillment of Yom Kippur, as shown in the book of Hebrews, and his resurrection on the feast of first fruits was fulfillment of the promise of the resurrection life. In that three day span, three prophetic types were fulfilled. The vail being torn conincides with the cessation of the miracle of the bloody wool turning white on Yom Kippur from the time of Yeshua resurrection to the destruction of the temple, and also the lot for Azazel comming up in the wrong hand (left) which was considered a very bad omen. The sacrifices were temorarily suspended but will begin again in the Millennial Kingdom, with the exception of Yom Kippur which was once and for all.

Charles in Florida

[Hix]

I think your slightly mistaken Charles, I know exactly were you are comming but the Tenach and Talmud for that matter are quite clear of animal sacrifice being restored in the end times. It is not necessary for atonement, but it is a way of showing a desire to change. HaShem himself says sacrifices for atonement are no longer necessary long before Yeshua ever came, Yeshua had a different purpose...

Yeshua was not a sacrifice in that sence, for the sheer fact he did not meet the Torah's quota on a sacrificial offering. My opinion on this is somewhat complicated but I see Yeshua's purpose to be a sacrifice as a way in atonement, but not in the same manner as you would think. Instead his death influenced the world and brought a way that the gentiles and those sick from G-d could come to him and follow the noachide laws. So in a way your right and a way your not. Sacrifices for atonement were deemed unnecessary by HaShem long before Yeshua, but that doesnt mean they are void, after all we must remember that the Torah is eternal, unchanging and unending as HaShem himself is. And I believe that Yeshua of cource did not disrupt that.

I hope Im clear, I get myself confused so easily lol ;)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Hix]

Oh and you mentioned the wool not turning white and the lot appearing in the other hand, that is a VERY abused excuse. Let me explain, first of all this is recorded in the Talmud, if you believe this then I assume you agree with the entirity of it? And you must also accept it within its context. Yes this happened but actually the Talmud records it was happening on and off for over a hundred years previous! The Talmud records it was becuase of the spiritual decline after the death of a righteous Rabbi who inspired the people. After his death there was much sin and evil and so the signs of acceptance of the sacrifices started to not happen, but this occured long before Yeshuas time.

Also like I said, animal sacrifices werent required for atonement.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Charlesinflorida]

I think your slightly mistaken Charles, I know exactly were you are comming but the Tenach and Talmud for that matter are quite clear of animal sacrifice being restored in the end times. It is not necessary for atonement, but it is a way of showing a desire to change. HaShem himself says sacrifices for atonement are no longer necessary long before Yeshua ever came, Yeshua had a different purpose...

Yeshua was not a sacrifice in that sence, for the sheer fact he did not meet the Torah's quota on a sacrificial offering. My opinion on this is somewhat complicated but I see Yeshua's purpose to be a sacrifice as a way in atonement, but not in the same manner as you would think. Instead his death influenced the world and brought a way that the gentiles and those sick from G-d could come to him and follow the noachide laws. So in a way your right and a way your not. Sacrifices for atonement were deemed unnecessary by HaShem long before Yeshua, but that doesnt mean they are void, after all we must remember that the Torah is eternal, unchanging and unending as HaShem himself is. And I believe that Yeshua of cource did not disrupt that.

I hope Im clear, I get myself confused so easily lol ;)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

I am not sure what you mean about sacrifices being reinstituted in the "end times." Do you mean before Messiah returns or after. I know that it is clear that there will be sacrifices in the Millenial Kingdom.

As for Yeshua being the sacrifice of Atonement, the writer of Hebrews says he was, and that moreover it was the temple service that could not add up to what was coming, (Yeshua) rather than Yeshua not being able to ad up to the Quota of the OT system.

[8] The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [10] Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. [11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; [12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. [13] For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: [14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

[Hix]

The Tanach is clear that the Messiah will come and start the messianic era, in which the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices restored. That messiah is Yeshua. And the belief in that is part of the Rambams thirteen principles of faith.

I am not denying in a way he was a sacrifice that indirectly brought atonement. But he is not the same as the Jewish sacrifice to directly earn atonement from HaShem. According to the Torah if Yeshua was an atonement sacrifice then HaShem would not accept him EVER. Yeshua's sacrifice did bring about much atonement for many people becuase it brought an awareness of HaShem.

Many people claim Yeshua was a sacrificial offering and at the same time the Pessach lamb. Which do you believe? It cant be both you know, the Pessach lamb wasnt a sin sacrifice. At the time in Egypt sheep and lambs were worshipped and anything against them was punishible via death, which is why Moshe would not accept Pheros offer to sacrifice in Egypt. The Pessach Lamb was a test, those who were willing to believe in HaShem killed the lamb and put it on their doorstep inspite of what the Egyptians might do, and they were passed over.

Anyway Im going off topic, its all in interperation. According to yours Yeshua conflicts BIG time with the Torah, I dont believe that to be true. Alot of Messianics these days ignore the conflicts between what they think of Yeshua and Torah instead of realising that there doesnt have to be any at all. So anyway I personally believe that the sacrifice Yeshua made was in order to bring those sick and without knowlege of G-d closer to him, and in that way indirectly earns atonement via them comming to a knowlege of HaShem.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Godz Marine]

The Tanach is clear that the Messiah will come and start the messianic era, in which the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices restored. That messiah is Yeshua. And the belief in that is part of the Rambams thirteen principles of faith.

I am not denying in a way he was a sacrifice that indirectly brought atonement. But he is not the same as the Jewish sacrifice to directly earn atonement from HaShem. According to the Torah if Yeshua was an atonement sacrifice then HaShem would not accept him EVER. Yeshua's sacrifice did bring about much atonement for many people becuase it brought an awareness of HaShem.

Many people claim Yeshua was a sacrificial offering and at the same time the Pessach lamb. Which do you believe? It cant be both you know, the Pessach lamb wasnt a sin sacrifice. At the time in Egypt sheep and lambs were worshipped and anything against them was punishible via death, which is why Moshe would not accept Pheros offer to sacrifice in Egypt. The Pessach Lamb was a test, those who were willing to believe in HaShem killed the lamb and put it on their doorstep inspite of what the Egyptians might do, and they were passed over.

Anyway Im going off topic, its all in interperation. According to yours Yeshua conflicts BIG time with the Torah, I dont believe that to be true. Alot of Messianics these days ignore the conflicts between what they think of Yeshua and Torah instead of realising that there doesnt have to be any at all. So anyway I personally believe that the sacrifice Yeshua made was in order to bring those sick and without knowlege of G-d closer to him, and in that way indirectly earns atonement via them comming to a knowlege of HaShem.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
The Tanach is clear that the Messiah will come and start the messianic era, in which the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices restored.

Are not the sacrifices restored for a period of time after Israel enters into a covenant as we read in Daniel 9? If so isn't this an indicator of the rebuilding of the/a Temple?

[simchat_torah]

Thanks. Did they mention His name at all or was it attributed to some other

event.?

Acutally, it does not mention his name, only the events. I was too busy today and will have to get to this tommorow at the earliest.

shalom
me

[Linda8]

. According to the Torah if Yeshua was an atonement sacrifice then HaShem would not accept him EVER. Yeshua's sacrifice did bring about much atonement for many people becuase it brought an awareness of HaShem.

~Hix~
Hi,

Could you kindly elaborate on how the Torah would make

his sacrifice unacceptable?

[Charlesinflorida]

Are not the sacrifices restored for a period of time after Israel enters into a covenant as we read in Daniel 9? If so isn't this an indicator of the rebuilding of the/a Temple?

Hi Marine,

I think you might be using the NIV. It mentions the abomination on a wing of the temple. This verse is contrived and does not appear in the original.

The word temple is not in the text. In the Hebrew it says "on a wing abominations" , but the word for wing is "Kanaph" which is also used for "wind" and means suddenly or rushing. It is one of those tricky Hebrew double meaning phrases. The correct meaning of the verse is that desolations will come suddenly like the blast of air from a birds wing.

Compare that to other portions in Daniel where it says destruction will come as a flood. In Israel when a rain comes in the mountains, down stream in the dried up little waddies there will be sudden flash floods. It is the same picture.

Another point to consider on the 70th week. It is divided into two portions of about 3 1/2 years. I believe the dividing took place at the death of Yeshua. That was when the sacrifices or daily oblations lost their effectiveness, or ended as far as God was concerned (I think). Just after that we saw the destruction of the sanctuary. Daniel says that here are two signs that will occur before the begining of the Tribulation which is the second 3 1/2 year portion (not a 7 year tribulation) Daniel is specific that it is 1290 days long. The second sign is the abomination. So we are waiting for the second part of the sign to indicate that we have come to the last half of the 70 th week, the first half already completed bty Messiah during his 3 1/2 year ministry.

Charles in Florida

[Hix]

Hi,

Could you kindly elaborate on how the Torah would make

his sacrifice unacceptable?


Ok then, but first I should mention that sacrifices made for sin were only supposed to be for unintentional sin, which is considered the least major sin that can be commited according to the Torah.

The Torah itself gives many ways in which a sacrifice must be made or HaShem will not accept it, he even says it himself. The first and most glaring is that there were to be no human sacrifices, which was a common pagan practise at the time. You can see the problems already. But theres even more than that:
Leviticus 4:27-29 states that the animal brought as a sin sacrifice must be slaughtered by the person who is offering it.
Leviticus 4:30-31 states that some of the blood of the (sin) sacrifice had to be rubbed by the Priest with his finger on the horns of the altar in the Temple, and the rest had to be poured at the foot of the sacrificial altar.
Deuteronomy 17:1 states that the sacrificial animals be without any physical defects or blemishes (such as the wounds on Yeshua)
Numbers 29:11 & Leviticus 16:15 both state that an appropriate time for a sin offering would have been Yom Kippur and not Pessach as the Pessach lamb wasnt a sin sacrifice.

And there is alot more besides, but even more glaring is the fact that according to the Torah and Jewish tradition, sacrifices only atoned for the sins up untill the point of the sacrifice. No sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed after the sacrifice was offered and, thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for sins of people born after the sacrifice was offered. This is shown in regards to both unintentional sin sacrifices and guilt offerings. If you have anymore questions just ask! :)

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Charlesinflorida]

Linda 8,

In the case of Yeshua, the focus is really on Messiah and His priesthood. It was his intercession that was effective. The priest had to stand before the Mercy seat and plead for the nation, for their forgiveness and Gods Mercy, even for those things perhaps not realized. Yeshua is the ultimate high priest and entered the Holy of holies in heaven and not into he earthly temple which is only a shadow or a copy of the one in heaven.

Since he was killed precisely on the passover at the very same moment the lamb was killed, and he said that his blood was for the sealing of the new covenant, then those things effected in the passover, such as deliverance from bondage to the sinful nature, and Satans power were executed. And atonement was realized through his mediary function as high priest and intercessor.

Chalres in Florida

[Hix]

I think that is a slightly different matter brother, you said Yeshua is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices and was sent as a G-ds lamb, but the ideal of him being the high priest who pleads for the nations is another, no?

That view at least in my opinion, has very little scriptural backing, and even if it WERE the case, once again atonement could only be realised for the people previous to this occurance. HaShem knew and told the Jewish people some day they would be unable to offer sacrifices but that wasnt what he wanted, he said he wanted them to bring their lives as sacrifices and to repent and follow the mitzvot and they would gain atonement. Man is born with sinfull nature but the message of the Torah is that we can overcome it. Yeshua did not come to change HaShems eternal methods of atonement for the Jewish people, instead he came to enforce them and try and bring about a knowlege of HaShem among the gentiles/sick of the world too.

Most christians contend that the only way for salvation is a blood sacrifice and that Yeshua was the final one, i got the feeling thats what you were saying earlier. But nothing could be further than the truth, The Jews who are eternally called the light to the nations, were told on several occasions of ways to achive atonement and actually told by HaShem he would rather this than any sacrifices or High Priests:

Contrite Repentance and Prayer - Deuteronomy 4:27-31, 1 Kings 8:46-52, Hosea 3:4-5, Hosea 14:2-3

Charitable Deeds - Deuteronomy 15:7-8, Leviticus 19:34, Deuteronomy 10:19, Micah 6:6-8, Proverbs 16:6, Daniel 4:24

It is also very clear which process HaShem prefers:

Jeremiah 7:21-23 "Thus says the L-rd of Hosts, the G-d of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, and I did not command them on the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning a burnt offerings and sacrifice; But this thing I commanded them, saying, 'Obey Me, and I will be your G-d and you shall be a people to Me; and you shall walk in all the ways that I will command you, so that it may be well with you.'"

Hosea 6:6 For loving-kindness is what I desire, and not sacrifice; and knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings.

Proverbs 21:3 Doing charity and justice is more desirable to the L-rd than a sacrifice.

Isaiah 1:11-18 "Of what use to Me are your many sacrifices?" says the L-rd; "I am sated from the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; and in the blood of bulls, and of sheep, and of male goats I do not delight. When you come to appear before Me, who has requested this of you, to trample My courts? You shall no longer bring a vain meal offering; it is incense of abomination to Me; as for the calling of an assembly on a New Moon and Sabbath, I cannot [bear] iniquity along with a solemn occasion. Your New Moons and your appointed Feasts My soul hates, they are a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you, and even when you pray much, I do not hear; your hands are full of blood. Wash, cleanse yourselves, remove the evil of your doings from before My eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do good, seek justice, help the oppressed; do justice to the orphan, plead [the case] for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together," said the L-rd; "If your sins be as scarlet, they shall become as white as snow; if they be red as crimson, they shall become as wool."

The repentance and atonement can be seen everywere in the Tanach such as in Jonah with the people of Nineveh. Daniel, Ezekiel, Ezra, Haggai, Jeremiah, Malachi, Nehemiah and Zechariah all lived in times with no temple, yet the Bible records they were righteous men. Yeshua never came to change how atonement was met for the people, he came to try and bring about an awareness of it and bring atonement and mercy and the knowlege of an eer powerfull, ever present, ever wonderfull G-d to the world. Baruch Hashem!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Linda8]

The repentance and atonement can be seen everywere in the Tanach such as in Jonah with the people of Nineveh. Daniel, Ezekiel, Ezra, Haggai, Jeremiah, Malachi, Nehemiah and Zechariah all lived in times with no temple, yet the Bible records they were righteous men. Yeshua never came to change how atonement was met for the people, he came to try and bring about an awareness of it and bring atonement and mercy and the knowlege of an eer powerfull, ever present, ever wonderfull G-d to the world. Baruch Hashem!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
Hello,

It would really help your argument if you were able to use Yeshua's statements to explain and back your points. Could you please provide them
since Yeshua knew Torah and He would have taught so.

It seems so confusing because why would Yeshua say so, and turn around and get his disciples to teach the exact opposite.?

Yeshua made the statement about His body being the temple when the people thought He was speaking about the structure. Were those his own words or not and why would he make such a statement thus reducing the Temple's signifcance--- destroy (kill) this temple (my human body) and I will raise it up in 3 days..
John 2:19-21
"Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20They said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

Now what Biblical precedent was Yeshua using.. where in Jewish religion is
it known that a human body is a temple?

No Jew could ever say His body was "the temple" so why would he say that?

Who is the spiritual source for that information regarding Yeshua being the Lamb that was slain? Who is the source for all the words of his disciples, the symbols of Revelation etc?

There must be a reason otherwise it would be misleading and for what reason?

[Linda8]

Hix?

[JewishHeart]

Dear Moderators,

Hix is spreading heresy which is against forum rules???? I suggest she take this to the Jewish debates.

[Hix]

......Im spreading my OPINION. Correct me if Im wrong but I am a member of these messianic forums and have many friends and brothers and sisters here. Alot of whom I know value my opinion, though may not agree with it.

I dont want to seem the odd one out however and if people dont want me here, I will leave....

I dont have the answers to everything, Im only 18 and im still learning, infact im HERE to learn and every day my brothers and sisters here sharpen my countenance and make me feel at home.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Henaynei]

......Im spreading my OPINION. Correct me if Im wrong but I am a member of these messianic forums and have many friends and brothers and sisters here. Alot of whom I know value my opinion, though may not agree with it.

I dont want to seem the odd one out however and if people dont want me here, I will leave....

I dont have the answers to everything, Im only 18 and im still learning, infact im HERE to learn and every day my brothers and sisters here sharpen my countenance and make me feel at home.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
hang in there Hix http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/208.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)- don't flee for the hills yet :) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_73.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[iitb]

Dear Moderators,

Hix is spreading heresy which is against forum rules???? I suggest she take this to the Jewish debates.People are entitled to their opinions, and you also have the right to disagree. If you think a post by Hix or anyone else on this forum has violated the rules, click on the "report" button in the bottom right corner of that post to let us know.

Openly calling someone a heretic, however, could be considered flaming, which is definitely a rule violation. :)