PDA

View Full Version : A little lesson on Heretics


CharlesYTK
23rd September 2004, 05:14 PM
The Waldenses http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0811Inquisition.html (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0811Inquisition.html)

“Waldenses” was the name given to heretical Christians in the south of France about 1170.

Peter Waldo (1140-1218) was a rich merchant of Lyons, France, who, about 1170, supposedly asked a priest how to live like Jesus Christ, and was told what Jesus said to the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:21, cited above. Waldo provided for his wife, put his daughters in a convent, and gave the rest of his money to the poor. He memorized parts of the bible, and began preaching. As he gained followers, he sent them out in pairs preaching. They were called “the Poor in Spirit”, and are also known as Pauperes de Lugduno, the “Poor Ones of Lyons”, so they seem to have been inspired by the Essenes, the Ebionites, the Jewish sect from which Christianity emerged.

Waldo preceded S Francis (1181-1226) in adopting a life of poverty to be free to preach. The difference was that the Waldenses preached the doctrine of Christ while the Franciscans preached the person of Christ. He founded his beliefs on the bible, especially the gospels, which he thought so self-explanatory, they needed no interpretation. He thought all that was needed was to make the bible available to the people, so he commissioned two priests to translate the bible into Provençal, starting with the gospels.

The Waldenses were living in the valleys of Piedmont in the seventeenth century. The Church exercised its authority on the Duke Charles Emmanuel II of Savoy who ordered that the Vaudois region should be reduced. The attorney of the Duke in 1655 ordered all of them to become Roman Catholics or lose their property and lives. The army used to enforce the order was made up of Frenchmen from Louis XIV’s army and Irishmen who had fled from Cromwell. The people were treated with horrible barbarity.


Before long, mobs were rampaging over the estates of the Waldenses. After the men had been killed or chased into the mountains, the women were beheaded and their children had their brains dashed out. In the towns of Villaro and Bolbio, those over 15 years old who refused mass were crucified upside down. Younger children were throttled. Nothing now could be seen but the face of horror and despair. Blood stained the floors of houses, dead bodies strewed the streets, groans and cries were heard from all parts.

The Duke’s soldiers were even worse. They made a point of mutilating any Waldensian that they caught before they killed them. Often they were simply left to die of their wounds, or of starvation, because they were too injured to move to seek nourishment. Mary Reymondet had her flesh stripped from her bones slice by slice in a manner reminiscent of Hypatia, a thousand years before. She died in a frightful state. Giovanni Pelanchion was tied with one leg to a mule and was dragged through the town while pelted with stones. Ann Charboniere was impaled with a stake and left to die.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/waldenspiedmont00.jpg (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/waldenspiedmont01.jpg)Torture of the Waldenses of the Piedmont
Others were suspended from trees or the beams of their own homes by iron hooks stuck through their abdomens. Bartholemew Frasche had holes bored through his heels, through which a rope was passed and he was dragged to a dungeon and left to die. Daniel Rambart had a joint of a finger or toe amputated each day. Some people had packets of gunpowder forced into their mouths and lit. Drowning, suffocation and burning at the stake were all common. Sara Rastignole des Vignes refused to recite Jesus Maria so had a sickle stuck into her vagina. Martha Constantine was raped and killed by having her breasts cut off.

A servant of Jacopo Michalino was tortured by being stabbed many times in the souls of his feet and in his ears. Then his penis was cut off and the bleeding wound cauterized with a candle, so that he did not bleed to death and would suffer longer. Then his torturers tore off his nails with hot pincers. Still he would not recant his religion, so they tied him to a mule and dragged him through the streets of Bolbio. Finally they killed him by tying a staff to his head with cords and twisting it off his body.

Children were killed in front of their parents by being decapitated or cut to pieces. Mary Pelanchion was hung naked from a bridge and used as target practice. Cypriana Bastia said he would rather be dead than a Catholic, so he was half-starved with some dogs and then fed to them. Jacopo de Ronc had his nails pulled out by red hot pincers, then was led through the streets being alterbnately bludgeoned and having a strip of flesh cut from him.

These murders continued in the Piedmont valleys until they were almost depopulated. Those who were not tortured to death but fled to the mountains died there of starvation or disease. Despite the outrage of Protestant Europe, the army of occupation remained and Vaudois worship was curtailed. Their chief pastor, Leger, had to flee to Leyden where he wrote his History of the Vaudois Church (1684). The Waldensians survived until the sixteenth century, when they joined the Protestant Reformation.

Athanasian Creed
23rd September 2004, 05:51 PM
Thank you for the reminder of those who've gone befor us.

Such has been the history of those who belonged to the true faith of the true Jesus of the Word of God throughout the ages. The Christian Church has a rich legacy left by those who loved Christ above even their lives and died horrible deaths and endured unmentionable tortures in defence of His true Gospel !!!:cry:
I'm reduced to tears every time i read Foxe's Book of Martyrs when i think i share (very unworthily) the name of "Christian" with those, by their love for Christ and obedience to His word exhibited such love and forgiveness toward their persecutors it makes me ashamed of myself when i lash out at those who say malicious things against me - these saints did so while being tortured to death !!:cry:

Lord Jesus, make me worthy of you - forgive my pettiness and sin. Help me (and all of us who call on you as Saviour, Lord, Messiah King and God) to reflect your glory, no matter what our circumstances might be. May we be willing to die cheerfully as your glorious martyrs in times past have done and even today are doing !!! Amen. :prayer:

Ray :wave:

ShirChadash
23rd September 2004, 06:18 PM
Charles -- or anyone -- do you remember the thread we had here a couple of months back on the history of Messianic Judaism? (Not the movement -- the people). Do you remember what it was called? GreenEyedLady started the thread, as I recall, and I was going to bump it up... :scratch:

ShirChadash
23rd September 2004, 06:23 PM
*rubbing eyes* I can't find it in a search.

CharlesYTK
23rd September 2004, 06:31 PM
The inquisition is what happens when you allow men to have authority higher than Gods authority through Torah, and let them make decisions about what is right and righteous. God has already told us very clearly what is right and what we are to do. Torah is God's instruction for the community of faith. Being a Christian does not elevate you beyond the Torah of God. It bings you under that authority so that you might be blessed and so that you can live good and sucessfully as a child of God bringing glory to Abba. Outside of the law of Adoania is only chaos and hatred and murders, of mens flesh and mens souls.

CharlesYTK
23rd September 2004, 06:38 PM
Thank you for the reminder of those who've gone befor us.

Such has been the history of those who belonged to the true faith of the true Jesus of the Word of God throughout the ages. The Christian Church has a rich legacy left by those who loved Christ above even their lives and died horrible deaths and endured unmentionable tortures in defence of His true Gospel !!!:cry:
I'm reduced to tears every time i read Foxe's Book of Martyrs when i think i share (very unworthily) the name of "Christian" with those, by their love for Christ and obedience to His word exhibited such love and forgiveness toward their persecutors it makes me ashamed of myself when i lash out at those who say malicious things against me - these saints did so while being tortured to death !!:cry:

Lord Jesus, make me worthy of you - forgive my pettiness and sin. Help me (and all of us who call on you as Saviour, Lord, Messiah King and God) to reflect your glory, no matter what our circumstances might be. May we be willing to die cheerfully as your glorious martyrs in times past have done and even today are doing !!! Amen. :prayer:

Ray :wave:
Thank you for your heart felt comments. Let us do better from this point on, and follow Gods word. In you Byline it says Sola Scriptura. Do you really want this? If so you must read the word outside of what the church tells you it means. Because the church is founded on the teachings and doctrines of the church fathers and not Scripture. These doctrines were formed by the same men who instituted the inquisition and they have not repented of this. They still consider us all heretics. The faith of the apostles is what we need to follow. It is the Halacha of Yeshua our chief Rabbi. His Gospel says "Repent for the kingdom of God is now. Repent means literally return to Torah, quit breaking Torah for this is the Kingdom right here right now.

We were brought into Israel, made to be part of her covenants. As you say even toay blievers are being killed for their bliefs. We need to gather together under one banner one law one God.

Iollain
23rd September 2004, 07:23 PM
Or cannot repent of this:
Matt 23
27 "(29) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "(30) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you (31) are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 "You serpents, (32) you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of (33) hell?
34 "(34) Therefore, behold, (35) I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will (36) scourge in your synagogues, and (37) persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous (38) Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the (39) son of Berechiah, whom (40) you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon (41) this generation.

CharlesYTK
23rd September 2004, 08:11 PM
Acts 21: [20] And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 6: [7] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Paul from PHP 3: [4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

There is strong evidence that Yeshua himself might have been a Pharisee as well. Be careful not to paint with such a wide brush.

The Jews who were tortured and killed during the inquisition were innocent of any wrong doing. And so were the potestants who were killed. They were just worshippig God in their own way. Many of them were Baptists too. Who is next?

@@Paul@@
23rd September 2004, 08:23 PM
Many of them were Baptists too. Who is next?
If i'm called, I pray I can be so bold...

:(


Thanks for the reminder. :)

Henaynei
23rd September 2004, 08:28 PM
Charles -- or anyone -- do you remember the thread we had here a couple of months back on the history of Messianic Judaism? (Not the movement -- the people). Do you remember what it was called? GreenEyedLady started the thread, as I recall, and I was going to bump it up... :scratch:Fast curtious service: http://www.christianforums.com/t719783 : with a smile!!^_^

Iollain
23rd September 2004, 08:28 PM
I took the verses in my last post to mean that if you say that your forefathers killed people and you say 'they are my forefathers but i would not do that' then your bringing condemnation on yourself.
Like if 200 years ago a group of Baptists tortured and killed people who would not be Baptists, and i call the killers my forefathers in the faith, who are obviously not in any faith from God, i'm admitting that they are of my faith, which they are not. So i'm agreeing in what they've done.
Some denominations can't say 'so and so' is not our forfather, because it would leave a blank space in an unbroken line of people.

CharlesYTK
24th September 2004, 05:24 AM
I took the verses in my last post to mean that if you say that your forefathers killed people and you say 'they are my forefathers but i would not do that' then your bringing condemnation on yourself.
Like if 200 years ago a group of Baptists tortured and killed people who would not be Baptists, and i call the killers my forefathers in the faith, who are obviously not in any faith from God, i'm admitting that they are of my faith, which they are not. So i'm agreeing in what they've done.
Some denominations can't say 'so and so' is not our forfather, because it would leave a blank space in an unbroken line of people.
If I may make a suggestion: Posting just a verse without telling us what you mean to point out by that verse, leaves too many things to be missunderstood, so please tell us what you are thinking and how the verse plays into that.

Thanks for your clarification.

Iollain
24th September 2004, 09:28 AM
Sorry Charles, i'm a bonehead at times like that. :)

Henaynei
25th September 2004, 01:28 PM
closed for moderator review