Matthew 18:20

[bleechers]

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Just a little pet peeve of mine... I hear this verse quoted just about everytime I'm in a church. When the band plays, at youth rallies, prayer meetings, lunches... it is probably the most quoted verse that I hear.

It's not a big deal, but that verse, in context, has very little to do with Christ being in our midst at a prayer meeting. The context is discipline. The "two or three" comes from the standard that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all things be established." What's being established in Matthew 18:20 is sin in the church.


16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


"Let him be unto thee as an heathen" is pretty harsh stuff. The Lord wants to assure his disciples that if they follow His path in Matthew 18, they are not to worry, He supports the action of discipline.


Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


Often Matthew 18:20 is invoked at prayer meetings with the idea that the Lord will hear us since "two or three are gathered together", but Jesus clearly teaches that it when we are alone in prayer that the Father will hear and respond. Surely, He also hears group prayers, but there is no "two or three" model that assures his attention or even presence.

Just a thought.

Again, it wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't used ad nauseum and as a formula.

:preach:

[ZiSunka]

I think you are a little bit right, but the verse before really says that our prayers are more powerful in groups of agreement:

19 Again, I assure you: If two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them."

So I think the pastors and others who quote these verses to mean that Christ is among us are correct.

[Gold Dragon]

I would agree with bleechers here. :gasp: ;)

This verse is one of the most common verses that Christians take out of context.

NASB - Matthew 18:15-20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Matthew+18&section=0&translation=nas&oq=mt%252018&new=1&nb=mt&ng=18&ncc=18)

If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that

BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.

The immediate context of this passage is about disciplining a brother.

[bleechers]

Gold... have you forgotten your medication again? ;)


I think you are a little bit right, but the verse before really says that our prayers are more powerful in groups of agreement:

19 Again, I assure you: If two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them."

So I think the pastors and others who quote these verses to mean that Christ is among us are correct.

I appreciate the thoughts, but verse 19 is in the same context as verse 20. The verse in Matthew 6:6 is directly about prayer and it concludes that the Father rewards openly those who pray "in secret".

The thing that is being prayed about in Mt 18:19 is discipline. It would be odd to have the Lord giving a strict outline for approaching a sinning brother in most of the chapter, invoking "two or three" witnesses and then suddenly change gears and teach on group prayer.

[ZiSunka]

But it says that if we agree about ANYTHING, not just about confronting a brother or forgiving a sin.

[bleechers]

But it says that if we agree about ANYTHING, not just about confronting a brother or forgiving a sin.

It doesn't work that way. If you interpret "anything" out of context and take the word to mean absolutely all things, then you end up with a rather silly, out of context, doctrine.

So if two or three of us agree in prayer that every person in Manitoba would be born-again, there is absolutely no way it can't happen? The examples are endless. Can we "agree" that God would supply $1,000,000,000 for a church building project and He's obligated because two or three "agreed"?

The verse just doesn't mean that. Read the whole chapter. It is clearly in the context of discipline. Even the verse you quoted (v.19) starts with the word "again" which teaches that He is reiterating a point, not making a new doctrine.

I don't want to discourage group prayer. I think it is biblical. I just don't want us to believe that it is either (a) a formula or (b) a teaching found in Matthew 18:19-20.

I think the context is clear here.

:)

[ZiSunka]

It doesn't work that way. If you interpret "anything" out of context and take the word to mean absolutely all things, then you end up with a rather silly, out of context, doctrine.

So if two or three of us agree in prayer that every person in Manitoba would be born-again, there is absolutely no way it can't happen? The examples are endless. Can we "agree" that God would supply $1,000,000,000 for a church building project and He's obligated because two or three "agreed"?

The verse just doesn't mean that. Read the whole chapter. It is clearly in the context of discipline. Even the verse you quoted (v.19) starts with the word "again" which teaches that He is reiterating a point, not making a new doctrine.

I don't want to discourage group prayer. I think it is biblical. I just don't want us to believe that it is either (a) a formula or (b) a teaching found in Matthew 18:19-20.

I think the context is clear here.

:)
You know God doesn't answer any prayers that are outside his will. But I do believe that if you ask God for anything within his will, he does give it to us, whether it is to get every person in Manitoba saved or to have 1,000,000 for a building project. For example, Central Christian Church in Wichita need 6 million dollars for their building project. They prayed for it and step out in faith that God would supply money to build what they truly needed. And he answered that prayer. Their new church is beautiful.

I think that if you assume that God won't answer your prayers, He honors that assumption and doesn't answer. But if you pray earnestly, He will give you some kind of answer, within His will.

[Iosias]

Matthew 18:20

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.




Just a little pet peeve of mine... I hear this verse quoted just about everytime I'm in a church. When the band plays, at youth rallies, prayer meetings, lunches... it is probably the most quoted verse that I hear.

It's not a big deal, but that verse, in context, has very little to do with Christ being in our midst at a prayer meeting. The context is discipline. The "two or three" comes from the standard that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all things be established." What's being established in Matthew 18:20 is sin in the church.


16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


"Let him be unto thee as an heathen" is pretty harsh stuff. The Lord wants to assure his disciples that if they follow His path in Matthew 18, they are not to worry, He supports the action of discipline.


Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


Often Matthew 18:20 is invoked at prayer meetings with the idea that the Lord will hear us since "two or three are gathered together", but Jesus clearly teaches that it when we are alone in prayer that the Father will hear and respond. Surely, He also hears group prayers, but there is no "two or three" model that assures his attention or even presence.

Just a thought.

Again, it wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't used ad nauseum and as a formula.

:preach:
Interesting...I had not thought of it in this way before...

[@@Paul@@]

I would like a NEW Audi S8...
Mat 18:19 KJV
(19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

:D

Anyway... Does anyone else feel like these verses in Matthew 18
Mat 18:15-18 KJV
(15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
(16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
(18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Relate to what was happening in 1 Cor. 5?
1Co 5:1-5 KJV
(1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
(2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
(3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
(4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


"Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven"

[bleechers]

You know God doesn't answer any prayers that are outside his will...

Oh, I most certainly agree, but that is not what is being taught here. :)

Johm 11 and John 14 both cover asking according to His will and receiving. To try to use Matthew 18:19-20 for this purpose is just not useful. Primarily, however, it most often used to suggest that if two or more (which it does not read anyway) Christians are gathered together, the Lord is therefore there. Would that mean that if a Christian were in a prison in China that the Lord would NOT be with him?

You just can't use Matthew 18:20 to teach anything that makes sense upon scrutiny outside of its intended context of discipline.

I challenge you to listen to the next 10 times you hear this quoted in the next week at your church ;)... see if they don't imply that Jesus HAS to be present because two or more are gathered. Raise your hand and ask if He's, therefore. not in your midst when you pray in secret... wtach the blank faces. It can't mean what most Christians assume it means.

Also, as alluded to already, the passage says "where TWO or THREE" are gathered. This is direct reference to the previous mention of two or three mouths/witnesses. It does not say "TWO or MORE" (despite the hippie song which started this misinterpretation).

The Lord promised never to leave me nor forsake me. He did not require that I always be in a group. :)

[Crazy Liz]

Gold... have you forgotten your medication again? ;)

:eek: I must have forgotten mine, too! :doh:

[ZiSunka]

I challenge you to listen to the next 10 times you hear this quoted in the next week at your church ;)... see if they don't imply that Jesus HAS to be present because two or more are gathered. Raise your hand and ask if He's, therefore. not in your midst when you pray in secret... wtach the blank faces. It can't mean what most Christians assume it means.

Also, as alluded to already, the passage says "where TWO or THREE" are gathered. This is direct reference to the previous mention of two or three mouths/witnesses. It does not say "TWO or MORE" (despite the hippie song which started this misinterpretation).

The Lord promised never to leave me nor forsake me. He did not require that I always be in a group. :)
I think wherever you have two or three gathered, you have a church, and that he is present there. Not that he isn't present all the time, but when we agree on something, when we come together as a unit to pray, whether it's two or two thousand, those prayers are more powerful than praying singly. I don't know the physics behind prayer, but coming together in agreement in prayer DOES make them more powerful.

[Gold Dragon]

I think wherever you have two or three gathered, you have a church, and that he is present there. Not that he isn't present all the time, but when we agree on something, when we come together as a unit to pray, whether it's two or two thousand, those prayers are more powerful than praying singly. I don't know the physics behind prayer, but coming together in agreement in prayer DOES make them more powerful.
I'm sure it does make it more powerful. However, I agree with bleechers that using Matthew 18:20 to support that belief is an error in contextual interpretation.

[kyzar]

I don't know about an 'error' but I have to agree with you that it is a rather 'well used' verse. Every change people get they use it!! But I have no problem with the idea that the Holy Spirit is with us when we gather in His name, much the same as He is with us when we are by ourselves...

[costlygrace]

I think wherever you have two or three gathered, you have a church, and that he is present there. Not that he isn't present all the time, but when we agree on something, when we come together as a unit to pray, whether it's two or two thousand, those prayers are more powerful than praying singly. I don't know the physics behind prayer, but coming together in agreement in prayer DOES make them more powerful.

:amen: That is what this verse is about! Though of course those who use it are often not really interested in prayer, at least not for the purpose of making a difference in the world for Christ.

[bleechers]

:amen: That is what this verse is about! Though of course those who use it are often not really interested in prayer, at least not for the purpose of making a difference in the world for Christ.

I don't want to disparage or discourage group prayer, but simply put, that is not what this verse is about. It is clearly about discipline. We need to be careful. We tend find a verse we like, rip it out of context, and use it for purposes for which God never intended.

Again, I have nothing against group prayer. I would agree that there is a certain "power" in group prayer because answers to such prayers bring glory to God in the assembly of believers. But most teaching on prayer is aimed at the individual. Corporate prayer is almost exclusively "supplication", individual prayer has a much more convicting and guiding element to it.

Do I dare mention another verse that the modern church has ripped from its moorings and forced upon us? :confused: 2 Chron 7:14... just as there is a "principle" in Matt 18 concerning Christ and His church, there is also a "principle" in 2 Chronicles concerning God and His people... but just as in Matthew 18, we cannot rip the promise from its context.

Something I heard that I like: A TEXT without CONTEXT leads to a PRETEXT.

:)

[Gold Dragon]

Something I heard that I like: A TEXT without CONTEXT leads to a PRETEXT.
Agreed.

We probably disagree on what context is for certain verses. You would probably consider the dispensation a verse is written to as part of its context or somehow derived from the context. While I consider dispensations to be a pretext that dispensationalists read into the verses and not something that can be derived from the context of a verse.

Verses are written to specific audiences, but the idea of a dispensations includes much more than being an audience, especially with regard to readers of those verses outside of the intended audience.

I'm not saying who is right or who is wrong, but that is just how I see it.

Cheers,
Gold Dragon

[BT]

Something I heard that I like: A TEXT without CONTEXT leads to a PRETEXT.

:)
There ya go, quotin' John Phillips again! It's a good quote and one that needs to be learned for any who want to learn to interpret the Bible. I have no disagreement with you on this verse. It is used out of context, Christ is with us all the time and not just when there are more than one of us in one place. Anyway I just wanted to pop my head into this thread not concerning this verse but concerning one that is used also WAY WAY out of place

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Now unfortunately some have taken this in the wrong way and waltzed around town "binding" evil spirits, "binding" the "spirit of alcohol" (which btw does not exist). I even heard of one group of well meaning (but slightly crazy) folks who went to an Indian reservations limits and "bound" the spirit of some old dead Indian chief who supposedly cursed the place, Ack! (mind you these were Christian folk even! This event was in the local paper.. imagine how that little bit of insanity damaged the witness of other Christians!

Anyway binding and loosing have nothing to do with spirits and such. It comes from an old rabbinical term where the priest would say "you are bound in your sin" or "you are loosed from your sin". Now naturally some have taken even this way out of context and said, "Ok lads we need to get some priests goin here and they'll be the ones forgiving sins and such.." Ack! That's an even worse understanding that those other folks who bind up the spirit of "beer" three or four times a week. That's not what "binding" and "loosing" is about at all in our dispensation (or any other for that matter). The priest was never able to (of his own power) "bind" or "loose" anyone, only God could (only God still can). However we as believer priests have an important job to do now....

Anyway it makes for an interesting study this whole "binding" and "loosing" thing.. I would finish up this post with some explanations of what the verse is really saying.. but it's feeding time and I gotta help the wife... So do yourself a favor and do some research on this binding and loosing.. it's pretty neat stuff...

[jcright]

Often Matthew 18:20 is invoked at prayer meetings with the idea that the Lord will hear us since "two or three are gathered together", but Jesus clearly teaches that it when we are alone in prayer that the Father will hear and respond. Surely, He also hears group prayers, but there is no "two or three" model that assures his attention or even presence.
Just a thought.

Again, it wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't used ad nauseum and as a formula.

:preach:
I'm afraid I've been guilty of this:doh: In fact, I think I said that in front of a pastor once...I'm surprised he didn't say anything.

Thank you Bleechers, I've learned something new!:clap:

[@@Paul@@]

Anyway it makes for an interesting study this whole "binding" and "loosing" thing.. I would finish up this post with some explanations of what the verse is really saying.. but it's feeding time and I gotta help the wife... So do yourself a favor and do some research on this binding and loosing.. it's pretty neat stuff...
OK, it's my understanding that "bind and loose" is a Hebrew idiom which means to "Forbid or to Allow in a religious court of law"...

I think the "authority" always came from above.

:)