Evolution and Gods will in our lives

[Music4Hym777]

Hey Ya'll,

I would like to know what you all think about these two issues, these are ones that I have been debating my new pastor about, and honestly dont like his views. Anyways, I was just wondering what all ya'lls views are.

Thanks!

[sculpturegirl]

With evolution, I imagine that when God was creating the universe is all happened in "God time," which may coincide with millions of years our time. Frankly, I don't think that we can really know until we are perfected in heaven.

What question do you have about God's will in our lives?

[Rechtgläubig]

My belief is in a solid "young earth creation", no ifs/ands/or buts about it.

I don't understand your second question either. So..., "when in doubt, quote Prof. Deutschlander..." :P


But what about the will of the regenerate, of Christians, after they have come to faith? That will is, again as already noted, renewed. They have a new will, a will that struggles against the old will (Romans 7) as long as they are in this life. That renewed will strives to submit to the will of God. And that’s where the problems arise for many. What is the will of God for them in their daily lives? Does the will of God eliminate in the regenerate the freedom to make choices in those things subject to reason? Does God express his will in their prayers, in their decisions, in their choices, in their feelings? We cannot say it too emphatically: WE CAN SAY NOTHING WITH CERTAINTY ABOUT THE WILL OF GOD APART FROM THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD! If we want to know the will of God, let us marry the Scriptures! There God gives us, not a code book of rules or a canon law that eliminates freedom and choice, but principles to guide us in the making of decisions and choices, which choices, motivated by the gospel, will be pleasing to God, whether we choose this or that.



To put it another way, many of the decisions that Christians make are choices between good and good. They are not all choices between good and bad. And those choices are real. God has not foreordained them, even though he knows how and what we will decide. He does not expect us to climb up into heaven and find out what God knows in the secret of his essence. He does not expect us to guess at his hidden will. He offers us choices and is pleased to accept them and to take them into account as he carries out his promise to make all things work together for our good (Romans 8:28).

Consider a few examples. God gave David choices in the consequence for his sin of numbering the people (2 Samuel 24). Paul decided to remain unmarried and he decided to forego his right to live from his work as an apostle (1 Cor. 9). He instructed the Corinthians to join in the collection for the poor in Jerusalem. But he did not tell them how much each should give or decide for them the mechanism of the collection. Rather he gave them a broad principle which he left them to apply as best they could (1 Cor. 16). In the same chapter he speaks of decisions that he has yet to make about his future travel plans.


To sum up the matter, St. Paul in the passage already cited a number of times, reminds us that God has renewed us and brought us to faith so that we could live lives filled with good works. He declares that these are works which God prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10 NIV). What are those works? They are the works prescribed in his Word, works that accord with the law and are done out of love and gratitude to God for the gift of salvation. Should I spend an hour today in my devotions or a half hour? Should I make evangelism calls today or discipline calls? Should I visit members or non-members? Should I spend more time studying or less? More time with my family or less? More time relaxing or less? Should I buy this car or that? This house or that? This suit or that? Should I remain in this call or take that call to a new field of service? All of these things are subject to reason. All of these choices may very well be between good and good, assuming we are making use of our reason as best we know how to the glory of God. We do not torment ourselves over which choice God wants us to make. We apply the principles of Romans 12 as best we can, offer our choices and actions to God as fitting thank offerings, trust his grace to pardon what is amiss and receive with pleasure for the sake of Christ what remains (Psalm 147:11). Indeed the Apostle assumes we are making choices between good and good when he bids us do all to the glory of God, no matter what we are doing, whether eating or drinking (1 Cor. 10:31). On the Last Day those choices and the actions that followed receive the praise of the Lord when they flowed from a desire to serve him out of faith and gratitude; there is not a word of praise for having guessed right what he had in mind (Matthew 25:14-40).


But don’t we pray for his guidance when we have to make choices? Of course we do. But we do not pray for him to make the decision for us. We do not ask him to reveal to our innermost being his hidden will. Nor do we expect him to blow in our ear. We ask for his guidance and for his blessing on OUR decision, that it may be made and the work done to his glory and for the benefit of our neighbor. And then we listen to his Word for the principles which guide us in our decision. Then we make our decisions and choices. That’s the essence of what Luther is saying as well in his explanation to the Third Petition. We should not be so arrogant as to claim that our choices are the same thing as the will of God because that’s what we decided. For again, we can say nothing with certainty about the will of God apart from the Word of God.


Our decision may be according to the will of God, if it is not contrary to his revealed Word or taken with a motivation contrary to his revealed Word. But that is not the same thing as saying it is the will of God; the reverse might also have been according to his will – again a matter of a choice between good and good. Should I spend an extra hour working on the sermon, or should I make that extra call? Either would be a good thing to do; neither is a sin. Either might well be according to the will of God. To insist that the one I decided to do must be the will of God is to make the other a sin. It is to turn each day into a torment of guessing at God’s will or arrogantly congratulating myself that I am so cleverly tuned into the mind of the Incomprehensible. We need to remember this principle as individuals and as a church body too. Too many people run off at the mouth about synodical resolutions that must be the will of God or they would not have passed. If the subject of the resolution was a matter not decided by the Word of God, then the decision may have been wise or unwise, good or not so good. But the same could be said, had the decision gone the other way. Again, if it is a matter not decided by God’s Word, it may have been according to the will of God and not contrary to it. But to equate such decision with the will of God is an arrogant claim to mastery over the hidden mind of God, something which only a Schwärmer unabashedly lays claim to...
http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Authors/D/DeutschlanderReformed/DeutschlanderReformed.htm


Sorry, just needed to get that out of my system, I am good for another month or so. :D

[Caelum]

Evolution? Who cares, the bible says all we need to know about creation, the details are obviously none of our concern, otherwise theyd be there :)

Besides, do you think petty animals such as ourselves could ever comprehend the complexity of such a thing? No, people are easily confused at 4 way stops, let alone the creation of the world :)

[Music4Hym777]

Okay, basically for the God's Will question, the question is "Is there such a thing as God's Will or God calling for our lives" (i.e. God calling someone to be a pastor) For some reason I have been told that there is no such thing as God's will/calling.

[LuxPerpetua]

Well, I just finished reading "Spirituality of the Cross" and it talks a great deal about vocation (which, when literally translated means "a calling"). I certainly believe that God has multiple callings for each of our lives. God, in His wisdom and grace, bestows upon each of us certain talents, likes/dislikes, educational experiences, etc., which we are to use for His glory and for the benefit of others. I think some people just *know* their callings and for others it is a discovery process. We have both professional (career) and personal callings (encourager, nurturer, etc.).


As for evolution, I personally don't have a problem with it so long as God is understood as the ultimate source. I also don't have a problem with a literal creation story as portrayed in Genesis. I do have difficulties with young earth theory because it just doesn't fit what I see around me nor does it do justice to God's magnificence, in my humble opinion. Keep in mind that I may be totally off on that. In general, I am either an old earth creationist or a theistic evolutionist or somewhere in between.

[Zoomer]

I believe in the literal creation in Genesis. I do think that species can change through adaptation but they do not become a seperate species.

Yes, I think we all have different callings in our lives but since we are sinful we do not always do as we should. We were given different talents, spiritual gifts, and personalities for a reason.

[SPALATIN]

God does not work in "Time" he transcends it. We understand time because we are finite creatures. If we try to understand the paradox of Eternity/infinity our minds would reel at the possibilities. For all we know he could have snapped his fingers and it was all there faster than we can say "Creation."

I remember as a child trying to figure out in my mind the concept that God is eternal and we are finite and my brain just about blew a gasket. What is there in Genesis is about faith in God and whether or not God has been truthful to us.

Just for the record I am in the YOung earth group w/ Recht. ;)

[night2day]

basically for the God's Will question, the question is "Is there such a thing as God's Will or God calling for our lives" (i.e. God calling someone to be a pastor) For some reason I have been told that there is no such thing as God's will/calling.

The question regarding Evolution and God's will can both be found within the Scriptures. Genesis 1 & 2 gives the creation account and offers nothing within the literary context which states it's considered anything other than an actual, historical event that occurred over a period of 6 days.

As for God's will/calling, 2 examples:

Psalm 139: 14-16
"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Jeremiah 1: 4-5
"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

More include Joseph, Abraham, Moses, Esther...all individuals God choose to do His will. We may not personally always know how God wants to use us or how long we have to wait for his purpose to come about, but do we have too?

Romans 8:28
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

[Rechtgläubig]

Just for the record I am in the YOung earth group w/ Recht. ;)
...and Moses :thumbsup: LOL!

:D

[Flipper]

I don't know if you guys know this, but Missouri has some cool cave systems, and a few of them are featured in state parks. Many moons ago (I think I was married, but if I was, it was not long afterwards), we went camping at Onondaga state park, and took one of the cave tours. We were led eventually into this massive, massive, "room" with a stalagtite and stalagmite fused together as thick as my living room and dining room combined. The guide was telling us how many tens of thousands and tens of thousands of years it took for this to be formed. You could see some of the water still running along the side, depositing minerals.

Very strange that the next service I went to, the sermon was on creation. Pastor is a strict young earther.

It was very hard to see him saying that the earth is only 26000 years old when I was just hearing that it was at least 80000 years to create that hunk of minerals in that cave.

I'm also debating on the true translation of "yom" (or "yam"? Don't remember) in Genesis. Does it mean 1 day or an amount of time?

However, regarding evolution (creation and evolution are completely separate topics in my book), micro evolution has been proven just in observation in the last 200 years. For example, as humans, we are taller and we live longer. Sure we also eat better, but we still pass our health on to our offspring.

[SPALATIN]

I don't know if you guys know this, but Missouri has some cool cave systems, and a few of them are featured in state parks. Many moons ago (I think I was married, but if I was, it was not long afterwards), we went camping at Onondaga state park, and took one of the cave tours. We were led eventually into this massive, massive, "room" with a stalagtite and stalagmite fused together as thick as my living room and dining room combined. The guide was telling us how many tens of thousands and tens of thousands of years it took for this to be formed. You could see some of the water still running along the side, depositing minerals.

Very strange that the next service I went to, the sermon was on creation. Pastor is a strict young earther.

It was very hard to see him saying that the earth is only 26000 years old when I was just hearing that it was at least 80000 years to create that hunk of minerals in that cave.

I'm also debating on the true translation of "yom" (or "yam"? Don't remember) in Genesis. Does it mean 1 day or an amount of time?

However, regarding evolution (creation and evolution are completely separate topics in my book), micro evolution has been proven just in observation in the last 200 years. For example, as humans, we are taller and we live longer. Sure we also eat better, but we still pass our health on to our offspring.
I believe that the word "yom" is Hebrew for "Day" as in Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement. Shaun Green is a Jewish Baseball Player for the Los Angeles Dodgers and will not play today because of this holiday.

[filosofer]

I'm also debating on the true translation of "yom" (or "yam"? Don't remember) in Genesis. Does it mean 1 day or an amount of time?

I have quite abit I will try to post this weekend on the word YOM.

[Flipper]

I have quite abit I will try to post this weekend on the word YOM.
Looking forward to it. :thumbsup:

I did read somewhere that in the KJV translation, the ratio of yom meaning 1 day, instead of multiple days, was something like 10:1. However, wasn't the KJV taken from the Latin Vulgate? :scratch:

[Rechtgläubig]

I was going to quote from Prof. Siegbert W. Becker, but I will wait until after Filo posts.

[sculpturegirl]

Can someone explain to me the points of young earth & old earth? I think I understand theistic evolution, but just in case... :P

Scott- I agree that it is unfathomable. We DO know that God is the Creator, but the inticracies (sp?) of HOW it all happened are beyond use for sure.

[night2day]

It was very hard to see him saying that the earth is only 26000 years old when I was just hearing that it was at least 80000 years to create that hunk of minerals in that cave.

Actually, stalagmites have been known to form rather quickly, not over a period of thousands upon thousands of years. For example, the stalagmite shawl in a mining tunnel is less than 150 years old; or the very long stalactites and fair-sized stalagmites in a disused mining shaft; or the host of stalactites growing under the Australian War Memorial; or perhaps even the Western Australian waterwheel which was frozen in limestone after only 65 years.

Comments by and about Jerry Trout, a cave specialist with the Arizona Forest Service...has been a high-school teacher and a geologist follows:

"What geologists used to believe was fact, in terms of dating a cave, now is speculation, Trout says. From 1924 to 1988, there was a visitor’s sign above the entrance to Carlsbad Caverns [New Mexico], that said Carlsbad was at least 260 million years old. In 1988 the sign was changed to read 7–10 million years old. Then, for a little while, the sign read that it was 2 million years old. Now the sign is gone."

One who wrote an article on Trout commented:

"In short, he [Trout] says, geologists don’t know how long cave development takes. And, while some believe that cave decorations such as S.P.’s beautiful icicle-looking stalactites took years to form, Trout says that through photo-monitoring, he has watched a stalactite grow several inches in a matter of days."

[Flipper]

Can someone explain to me the points of young earth & old earth? I think I understand theistic evolution, but just in case... :P

I'll take a crack at this with the cliff notes version.

Young Earth: Earth was formed in a literal 7 24-hour days according to Genesis 1. Further, if you take all the time periods of the Bible and add them up, you get that the Earth is actually between 12,000 and 30,000 years old - the most common being 26,000. Man walked with dinosaurs, and the young earthers use the mention of the behemoth and leviathan in Job, and some of Julius Ceasar's writings when he was in Gaul as proof.

Old Earth: Each day in Genesis 1 could mean 7 24-hour days, or each day could be a long among of time. It took time for the Earth to be formed in a way where 24 hour days existed. Beyond that, most everything you learned in primary school science class applies to the earth creation in a form of science explaining God. The Earth is 4 billion or so years old. In Job, God was using those creatures out of legend as a metaphor to describe his greatness. When Caesar was in Gaul, it was well documented that he was going mad, and he was assassinated not long after coming back to Rome.

This is my understanding. If I'm mistaken, please tell me. If you want to add to this, please do so.

[Flipper]

Actually, stalagmites have been known to form rather quickly, not over a period of thousands upon thousands of years. For example, the stalagmite shawl in a mining tunnel is less than 150 years old; or the very long stalactites and fair-sized stalagmites in a disused mining shaft; or the host of stalactites growing under the Australian War Memorial; or perhaps even the Western Australian waterwheel which was frozen in limestone after only 65 years.

Comments by and about Jerry Trout, a cave specialist with the Arizona Forest Service...has been a high-school teacher and a geologist follows:

"What geologists used to believe was fact, in terms of dating a cave, now is speculation, Trout says. From 1924 to 1988, there was a visitor’s sign above the entrance to Carlsbad Caverns [New Mexico], that said Carlsbad was at least 260 million years old. In 1988 the sign was changed to read 7–10 million years old. Then, for a little while, the sign read that it was 2 million years old. Now the sign is gone."

One who wrote an article on Trout commented:

"In short, he [Trout] says, geologists don’t know how long cave development takes. And, while some believe that cave decorations such as S.P.’s beautiful icicle-looking stalactites took years to form, Trout says that through photo-monitoring, he has watched a stalactite grow several inches in a matter of days."
That is very interesting. I haven't read that specifically, but I have read sources that state that caves might not have taken as long to form.

[Phoebe]

Okay, basically for the God's Will question, the question is "Is there such a thing as God's Will or God calling for our lives" (i.e. God calling someone to be a pastor) For some reason I have been told that there is no such thing as God's will/calling.
If we receive no calling, what does 1 Corinthians 7:20-24 mean? (Mt. 18:14 also comes to mind)

[night2day]

Can someone explain to me the points of young earth & old earth? I think I understand theistic evolution, but just in case... :P


There's a book by Jonathan Sarfati entitled Refuting Compromise that may help explain things from a YEC point of view.

[Lenny]

Here's something I've always wondered: Is there anything in the New Testament that supports Young Earth/literal interpretation of Genesis 1? :confused:

[night2day]

Here's something I've always wondered: Is there anything in the New Testament that supports Young Earth/literal interpretation of Genesis 1? :confused:

I had a response...but my browser decided to just crash when it was sent. :cry: So...I'll give some verses from the New Testament which refer to the Creation as an actual event and Adam, and Eve as real people who had lived.

Creation
Mark 13:9
Romans 1:20, 25
Romans 8:22
2 Peter 3:4

Adam & Eve
Mark 10:6
Luke 3:28 (Jesus' Genealogy from Mary's side of the family)
Romans 5:15
1 Corinthians 15:22, 45
1 Timothy 2:13-14

Further, the New Testament also refers to the global flood which took place within Genesis as well. Within Genesis itself, there is nothing within the literary context of the Creation account which indicates it is to be taken as anything other than as is.