Church Members Who Commit Sexual Sin

[Debbie]

IN the church, according to scripture, what is to be done about members who are currently, actively, committing sins such as: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest?
What is to be done about other known sins currently, actively , committed by church members such as :divorce, coveting, lying, murder, rape?
(Any sin you want to discus, not just these).
Is the church hypocritical if it ignores the current unrepentive sins of it's members?
If the church does nothing, isn't that the same as condoning the sin?

[Dave Ulchers]

Many are called, but few are chosen. Anyone can enter a church, but it is hard for many to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Consider Matthew 13:25f:
He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well.

The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?'

He answered, 'An enemy has done this.'

His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

[Debbie]

This scripture is not referring to the church members as a whole, but the outside world and the church. I am only concerned with the church members here. thanks

[Fisher of Men]

I beleive the church should always incourge repentance of sins.Everyone sins,and they should repent,if they are haveing problems doing the same thing over and over they should seek church council which is almost always available.

[Fisher of Men]

Also sexual sin can be a thought.If you look at someone and think to your self "ooh i would like some of that",well you just commited adultry with that man/woman in your heart.

[Dave Ulchers]

The footnote in the NAB states:
The refusal of the householder to allow his slaves to separate the wheat from the weeds while they are still growing is a warning to the disciples not to attempt to anticipate the final judgment of God by a definitive exclusion of sinners from the kingdom. In its present stage it is composed of the good and the bad. The judgment of God alone will eliminate the sinful. Until then there must be patience and the preaching of repentance.
So, I am of the belief that this is about the church.

Another parable you might consider:

Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. 4 A second time he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those invited: "Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast."'

"Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.'

"The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests.

"But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence.

"Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.' Many are invited, but few are chosen."

[Debbie]

The original question I intended to relay, was unrepentive. What about church members who do not wish to stop committing these sins? Say a man who often comes to church half drunk, a woman who is having an adulterous affair, people who wish to be accepted while living in sin with their unmarried partner?
A homosexual & thier lover? Not referrring to those who are repenting.

[soulsisterclaire]

Originally posted by Debbie
IN the church, according to scripture, what is to be done about members who are currently, actively, committing sins such as: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest?
What is to be done about other known sins currently, actively , committed by church members such as :divorce, coveting, lying, murder, rape?
(Any sin you want to discus, not just these).
Is the church hypocritical if it ignores the current unrepentive sins of it's members?
If the church does nothing, isn't that the same as condoning the sin?

The church should pray for them. No one is without sin. That is biblical. Confronting or punishing the sinner is not the church's job. It is God's.

If they are still attending church, they are more than likely trying to overcome their sins with God's help.

MHO

[Christi]

Wait, wait, I know!

Adultery: Didn't Jesus say anyone who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultery?

Murder: Didn't Jesus say that anyone who is even angry with his brother would be subject to judgement?


So does your church ask these types of people to leave too? The ones who only sin in their hearts? Or just the ones whose sin is found out? You said you wouldn't be asked to leave your church if your sin was printed in the paper? Why not?

[Debbie]

Thanks dave, the nab footnote helped. Yes, the harvest is at the 2nd coming & only God can judge salvation. AS your footnote & Fishers of men pointed out, patience & preaching of repentance is required.
At least we all agree so far that repentance is required, but what if the church memeber shows no sign of wanting to repent?

[Fisher of Men]

exactly what i was saying christi....ty

[soulsisterclaire]

Originally posted by Debbie
Thanks dave, the nab footnote helped. Yes, the harvest is at the 2nd coming & only God can judge salvation. AS your footnote & Fishers of men pointed out, patience & preaching of repentance is required.
At least we all agree so far that repentance is required, but what if the church memeber shows no sign of wanting to repent?

If they don't repent, the consequences are theirs to bear. But to confront them might mean they leave the church alltogether, and I wouldn't want that on my conscience. Maybe a good friend could help them. I don't think they should be confronted in public at all.

[Christi]

Sorry, Fisher, I was typing while you were! (small minds think alike? lol)
Debbie, I think you and I are thinking of two different things here. The sinner in question, whether homosexual or whatever-----my mind is feeling compassion over someone, really truly struggling with their sin. Wanting to let it go, but basically having to wrestle with it, because it has such a hold on him. Someone who is just in torment trying to do right, but not being able to. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are visualizing a "haughty" type of a sinner, a blatant "in your face" type, lifestyle sinner. I am talking about someone who is sorry, wants to stop, tries, fails, asks forgiveness, tries, and fails until one day---with enough LOVE, prayer, and support, they are finally free of it. Are we just maybe coming from two different places?

[Dave Ulchers]

Originally posted by Debbie
what if the church memeber shows no sign of wanting to repent?

Who are we to judge? Consider St. Francis of Assissi. His father was the richest guy in town, his mother a noble, Francis was the heir apparent, and history suggests he spent his youth as a stuck up spoiled snob. (If this isn't true, as this is only an example, may the Saint forgive me.) At twenty he spent a year as a POW, but still with an eye to bloodlust believed the path of military conquest could make him a prince of the world. But when he was 25 or 26 he began having strange dreams, and shortly thereafter gave up all his possessions and became one of the greatest saints the world has ever known.

At what point along the way would you have kicked him out of the Church?

St. Augustine spent his youth comparatively unchurched, but still lived a life of infamous unchastity. Eventually, God got through to him as well, and he became one of Christianity's great theologians.

Would you have said: Sorry, Augustine. We've heard all about you, and don't want a deviant like you coming in here?

I say invite everyone in, and let God convert the consciousnesses of whomever he can. The Church can only plant the seeds of truth, and hope, with much patience, that they sprout.

[Debbie]

The original post is of the concept that the sinners ARE ATTENDING CHURCH. They are "continually, actively sinning", and no signs of repenting or stopping sin were mentioned.

[patriarch]

Originally posted by Debbie
IN the church, according to scripture, what is to be done about members who are currently, actively, committing sins such as: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest?
What is to be done about other known sins currently, actively , committed by church members such as :divorce, coveting, lying, murder, rape?
(Any sin you want to discus, not just these).
Is the church hypocritical if it ignores the current unrepentive sins of it's members?
If the church does nothing, isn't that the same as condoning the sin?

Scripture is pretty clear about it:

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.
2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment
4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.
8 Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."

[Debbie]

Amen Patriarch, Thank you for scriptural proof. God Bless you, Debbie.
AT some point, some of the other members, or the pastor, have to approach this sinner & show scripture to help them see that they are sinning, & with love, ask them to seek God's forgiveness. If they claim that they are not going to stop committing adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc, or that to them it is not a sin, then what?
According to scripture they should be asked to leave the church. If they say they will ask God for forgiveness, then praise God & let them remain in the church.
I cant imagine a church where anything goes. Eventually the pastor & youth minister could be appointed, active, non repentant sinners of any type.
James 5:20- "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
That's our job. We have no purpose if we condone any sin our individual church members commit. If sinning is good enough for the congregation, why not allow the youth minister & pastor to continually sin too?

[Dave Ulchers]

I don't know -- somehow it seems like the greedy and the idolaters usually get to stick around these days. I'm not sure why the unchaste always get the short end of the stick.

[Debbie]

lol dave, you have a point.

[Christi]

Debbie,
I haven't had an argument with that at all. My argument is with driving people from church who are really wanting to repent and really trying. Your last post went into alot more detail, and evidently I have no argument with you, after all. I somehow got the impression in the "homosexuality" thread, from some of your other posts that people who needed church the most.....weren't really welcome. You did mention love in the post above, however. And like Paul also says, "Love never fails". So, if I have offended you in any way, I am sorry, and please accept my.......
Love in Christ,
Christi

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Originally posted by Debbie
Thanks dave, the nab footnote helped. Yes, the harvest is at the 2nd coming & only God can judge salvation. AS your footnote & Fishers of men pointed out, patience & preaching of repentance is required.
At least we all agree so far that repentance is required, but what if the church memeber shows no sign of wanting to repent?
Pray Harder .

It seems to me you already knew the answers to these questions. Didn't we discuss this in the homosexuality thread? Are you trying to prove a point or see what other people say?

I'd also like to add, anyone going out of their way to go to church is trying to become a better person. There have to be a very slim percentage of the church population who go just to sit in the confy seats and for some free coffee.

If someone has the mind set that they are going to try to repent, no one in God's green earth should have the right to make them leave church, Period.

This fictional person, the one who is rebelous, and goes to church drunk and homsexual at the same time, does he/she go for any reason at all? If this same person has not even a hint of remorse or regret of their bondage of sin, I question, why are they there.

I ask because I'm wondering if such a person exitsts.

[LouisBooth]

"I'd also like to add, anyone going out of their way to go to church is trying to become a better person. "

dude, I guess you haven't been to church in a lonnngg time. I would say the current church is rampet with people that DON'T go to church to be better people.

"If someone has the mind set that they are going to try to repent, no one in God's green earth should have the right to make them leave church, Period. "

That's the point. If they are repenting. If they are not that is unrepentant sin that is harmful to the body.

[ThienAn]

A truly tough question. For those sins that I can't see like, a person lusting after person thus committed adultery, or a person who does not love his brother has committed murder. Those sins God will judge because God can see those sins. I can't see those sins, so I can't do anything about it.

But for those other sins that I can see like homosexual, adultery, incest, I would confront them in private. But it's important that they know that my confrontation comes from love & compassion, and not from an eye of judgment. Another important thing is I would want to know how they feel and what they think about it. And I would periodically check to see the progress and how the person is dealing with the issue or if that person is dealing with it at all.

But I definitely think that issue should be addressed. After all, are we or are we not salt of the world?

[Catchup]

You guys are good! :D

I can see the Spirit at work everyday on this board. You deal with some of the hardest problems and misunderstandings of man. There is this vast exchange of thought from people of different experiences and circumstances. You listen to each other, with a desire not to win a debate, but to further the envelopment of mankind within the arms of Christ. I am blessed to be here. :clap:

I have little more to add to this thread. You have said it all. Yes, our Churches are to be kept sacred… but not secret. Anyone guilty of desecrating the house of God should be banished. But a sinner , as we all are, must be welcome. However, this notion of acceptance of sin, is not of God. We are not to weaken our desire to please our God. It will take a lot of praying and work of the Spirit to separate the sinner from his sin. This is a task more universal then just the individual suffering from the sin. This separation must come into your own hearts and souls. If God’s will is to be done, than we must see the sinner separate from the sin. All people are worthy of love. Learning to love, as Jesus taught , is the work of Christians.

Please accept my hug :hug: LOVE

[soulsisterclaire]

Originally posted by Catchup
You guys are good! :D

I can see the Spirit at work everyday on this board. You deal with some of the hardest problems and misunderstandings of man. There is this vast exchange of thought from people of different experiences and circumstances. You listen to each other, with a desire not to win a debate, but to further the envelopment of mankind within the arms of Christ. I am blessed to be here. :clap:

I have little more to add to this thread. You have said it all. Yes, our Churches are to be kept sacred… but not secret. Anyone guilty of desecrating the house of God should be banished. But a sinner , as we all are, must be welcome. However, this notion of acceptance of sin, is not of God. We are not to weaken our desire to please our God. It will take a lot of praying and work of the Spirit to separate the sinner from his sin. This is a task more universal then just the individual suffering from the sin. This separation must come into your own hearts and souls. If God’s will is to be done, than we must see the sinner separate from the sin. All people are worthy of love. Learning to love, as Jesus taught , is the work of Christians.

Please accept my hug :hug: LOVE

Amen to that! :clap:

I too am blessed to be here!

Praise God! :bow:

[Christi]

I haven't been able to get this subject out of my mind, but I would like to make a suggestion. If any are willing, I would like to request people to join me to commit to 15 minutes a day in prayer for these people who are church attenders, yet not having much success with turning from their sin. It seems especially sexual sin is a real stronghold for people who have become involved in it. Not just homosexual behavior, but adultery, pornography, etc. Maybe "where 2 or 3 gather in His name" we can lift these people before Him, asking Jesus to give them a true sorrow and also to fill them with His power--to resist this evil. I just feel that some of these people can go on to becoming mighty warriors of God, because after all.....he who is forgiven much, loves much. Will anyone join me?

[Wildfire]

Hi Debbie; I think it is important to understand that the "church", according to the bible, has been described as a gathering of people, not an actual building. What truly matters is keeping the commandments and the word of God; whether it is in your own home, or otherwise. Remember how Jesus was not at all impressed with the temple, as his disciples were. But told them, that one stone would not be left upon another, that would not be thrown down.
So the church is within ourselves.
What you are asking is; what will happen to those "church members" who willingly offend God, and seek no repentance?
Jesus tells us that we cannot hate our brother, and also serve him. No man can have two masters. If we break one of the commandments, we break them all. And if we sin, knowing that we can be forgiven by Jesus, it will not be forgiven to us. The book of Revelation tells us this;
chapter 22
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be.
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Wildfire

[soulsisterclaire]

by Wildfire...And if we sin, knowing that we can be forgiven by Jesus, it will not be forgiven to us.

:eek:
Where did you get that idea? :confused:

All sin is forgiven by God if we are saved and ask for forgiveness.

At least that is MY understanding of the Gospel.

[ThienAn]

Originally posted by Wildfire
Jesus tells us that we cannot hate our brother... Wildfire

Not all acts are acts of hate - even if it hurts.

[Wildfire]

soulsister;
In the book of Hebrews, chapter 10, I read this:

For if we sin willfully after that we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

I don't believe this means that we will not be saved. We are told that many shall be called, but few chosen.

Remember how we are told that if our right hand offends us, we are to cut it off or if our eye betrays us, we are to pluck it out and cast if from us? <because> it is better to enter eternal life maimed, rather than our hands and feet thrown into the lake of fire.
It is written that we shall be judged according to our works. And there is the parable of talents; which to each man was given according to his own ability, and then his reward from Christ for what he had gained.

Charity is the greatest of all things, and if we follow after that it shall cover a multitude of sins.

So if we (knowingly, willfully) sin on purpose, believing that it will be instantly forgiven, this scripture tells us that it is not so.
The book of Corinthians is interesting; here the mysteries of our bodily members vs. the spiritual members of Christ are explained.

We are told to strive for perfection; to seek that which is above, and not here on earth.
Tha is what I was trying to emphasize. I'm sorry if I confused anyone.
Wildfire

[soulsisterclaire]

It is okay Wildfire, it got me thinking...

I actually started a thread on it see Deliberate Sin - Not Forgiven.

I did find that verse.

It still puzzles me though...

Still doesn't quite sit right...

Maybe I am scared...Oh well, see that thread...I don't want to get off topic

[LouisBooth]

I just read an excellent essay on church discipline. One key thing to remember that "expelling" the immoral brother is for redemptive purposes, not punitive. It is ment to remove fellowship with the church, BUT NOT to remove your care for that person. YOu don't shun them but they are to realize they are wrong in their sin. Read 1 cor..great book.

[soulsisterclaire]

I just stumbled across this verse, God is great!

Galatians 6[NIV]
1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ

Makes sense to me!

Praise God! :clap:

Give God all the Glory for this one! :bow:

[Wildfire]

Hi soulsister; yes I have seen that thread. I am happy to have encouraged some deeper searching on your part and any others who may have read this. I don't want you to feel scared; that was not my intention. <Fear him> yes. <Love him> and you will not be left comfortless.
What shall happen to all of us, after our death is a wonderful mystery. We are told that we shall all change, from a physical body (earth) to a spiritual body (heaven). Jesus spoke in many parables, and I greatly enjoy this. He also said, that he will talk to us plainly, and show us the mysteries of life and of his father. :)

We are told; The part of ourselves that betray us into sin, should be "cut off" from our body, so that our entire (being) is not cast into the lake of fire. I find this interesting. As the book of Corinthians explain how we are all members of Christs' body, so are we made up of members of our own bodies. The ear is not greater than the eye, the hand not greater than the foot, but working together as one. If one member feels pain, the entire body suffers; so is it with Christ.
There appears to be a greater plan of our lives with God after this one; judged by our works here on earth, our spiritual (members) shall be placed accordingly with Christ as it so pleases him.

Wildfire

[ThienAn]

Reading Wildfile's post reminded me of this scripture:

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Matthew 5:29 - 30

[ThienAn]

Thanks Wildfire. Prior to reading your post, I was sure of what I would do if a church member who sinned without repentance. But I think Matthew 5:29-30 has made it clear for me.

[filosofer]

Confronting or punishing the sinner is not the church's job. It is God's.

I am surprised that noone has mentioned Matthew 18:15-18

(Jesus said: )
"And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. "

And the heart attitude is revealed in the Galatians 6:1-2 passage.

[LouisBooth]

Umm...yes it is the peoples job. paul also says it very clearly. Go to him privately, then with a witness, then as a church..then its time to take more drastic action.

[ThienAn]

and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer.

How would you interpret this? Which actions are appropriate to fit the interpretation of this verse?

[LouisBooth]

The action is you withdraw your fellowship from this person.

[filosofer]

The person is no longer part of the church, but is now part of the mission field. Goal is the same: salvation of the person.

[ThienAn]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
The action is you withdraw your fellowship from this person.

but what if he keeps coming back to church on a regular basis? how should the church leader deal with him/her? how should regular church goers deal with him/her

[Debbie]

I think the unrepentant sinner who was approached in love by the church, would not return to that church. He would find a church who didnt care about his unrepentive, sinful behavior. That would be easy to find.
MY church split from the national denomination "Disciples of Christ" a couple of years ago because they no longer considered homosexuality a sin, & rewrote their national creed. There is no need for repentance in a church which ignores & condones sexual sin. So an unrepentive sinner would be more comfortable with that denomination.
Besides, many Christians today do not believe in repentance or judging sins, of their particular church members at all. Others believe in forgiving every sin of their pastor. In December, Robert Lairdon, nationally known pastor, confessed to his congregation that he was having a homosexual affair with his church's male youth minister. He is to be back at the pulpit this month after 4 months of counseling. Charisma magazine reported only 1/5 th of his congregation left, while the others stated, "We wouldnt be Christians if we didnt forgive him".
I am of the opinion that we are all the body of Christ, but we are only to judge those within our own particular church, seek their repentance, break fellowship, etc.
I can see what type of church it could become if unrepentive, active sinning was condoned. It would not be a good enviroment for the youth who were old enough to notice. The pastor & youth minister would not be immune from the immoral approval.
Thank you all for some very intelligent conversation on the matter. All scripture mentioned being true, it is apparent that we become a partner in hypocrisy if we condone every active unrepentive sin within our church members. It is the outside world we are not to judge.
Christi, not a problem here, but thanks for the apology anyway. I knew that you & some others were reading more meaning into my posts than I had intended, easy to do. I understand.

[ThienAn]

Debbie, thanks for the comment; I appreciate it.

[ZiSunka]

but what if he keeps coming back to church on a regular basis? how should the church leader deal with him/her? how should regular church goers deal with him/her

The church itself should be open to all, in case this person repents and wants back into fellowship, but the members and the leaders must not fellowship with him or let him have the benefits of membership, like communion, suppers, church meetings, board membership, voting privledges, etc.

We are not to even eat with a person who has been put out of the church.

If the person enters the church and becomes disruptive, then eh should be physically put out, but as long as he is sitting quietly, the word of God may be soaking into his heart and making a difference!

[Me4him]

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This person has broken down the "Hedge" God has around Christians and "Satan" will bite them.

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him,

Ec 10:8 and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.


"Repent" means to "turn away from", not "continue".

[WWJD777]

Yes it is condoning sin.

[LouisBooth]

":but what if he keeps coming back to church on a regular basis? how should the church leader deal with him/her? how should regular church goers deal with him/her"

Throwing in my 2 cents...he/she wouldn't. The people of the church would make it quite clear in a loving way that their fellowship is withdrawn from him/her. Like confronting an alcoholic friend that won't give it up..you have to seperate yourself from them. Its hard, but you have to do it. There was a episode of the cosby show that did this perfectly! This guy was on drugs and they dealt with him exactly how the church should.