After Reading a Few Threads

[Rabbi Klein]

I am curious. Are there any Jews in this forum who are also a part of the Messianic faith? I have seen posts from various Jews who have the 'icon' selected for Judaism. Also, I see a lot of people who state they are gentiles who became fascinated with Judaism. I wholeheartedly believe this to be a beautiful thing but I am now curious if there are any Jews that are a part of this movement here in this forum.

R. Klein

PS. I mean no offense but curiousity seeks this cat.

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Well Rabbi, I am not really jewish, but I feel like I am. My dad and his whole side of the family are non-practicing Jews. My mom's side of the family are all catholic, minus my mother, she is now Southern Baptist and is anti-catholic(long story). So I grew up in a mixed household, and I always felt Jewish. But I lived most of my life in a state where the local jewish population was my dad :eek: And now I live in an area where there is a local synagogue, but my dad i non-practicing so...nothing really changed. After taking a World religions class I was wondering why Christianity is nothing like its predessor religion, and why none of the rites and what not are not around. Then I found out about MJ from these wonderful peeps :wave: and I went to the one and only local MJ congregation service, but yeah. Thats my story.

[Sephania]

My Maternal Grandmother kept her heritage hidden from my German Grandfather, thus I was not brought up Jewish, but in a Christian home. I never did feel comfortable in the church and after marrying I stopped going. My belief has always been that Torah was not "done away with" and this caused friction in my family. I consider myself MJ but have serious reservations about many of the practices that are tied to the Christian church.

I dont' believe I caught your introduction anywhere R. Klein, may I ask your main purpose for visiting us, not that you aren't welcome, just what made you join, do you know any of our members here? :)

Shalom

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Zayit,

I suppose a small introduction is in order. I was a Rabbi for a Jewish community centre for college students. I'd rather keep some form of my identity anonymous on the internet for safety purposes, so I won't mention where this is located. I met a young man named Japheth who attended services there and sparked a friendship. While I have had my encounters with Jews for Jesus in the past, I was not familiar with a seemingly 'authentic' Jewish Jesus until then. Over our discussions he mentioned this forum and stated that I should stop by and meet the community.

Unfortunately I have not seen him online. Maybe he doesn't come around often.

I suppose you could say I'm here simply to find out more about the Messianic belief system. I'm sorry if I have stepped on any toes. I am not here to attack your beliefs but instead to merely be an observer.

I have since met Henaynei, Zemirah, Nossa, and Muffler Dragon in private messages. Everyone has been very warm and welcoming. I hope I don't overstay that welcome.

R. Klein

[Rabbi Klein]

I find it odd that so many gentiles are attracted to the Jewish lifestyle. It is not an easy one and is filled with hardship. I wonder if it makes it easier for a gentile to embrace Judaism if they do not have to let go of their messiah? Also, are the leaders of the Messianic sect all Gentiles as well or are any of them Jewish?

R. Klein

[Nossa-the-Lame]

The rabbi of my congregation was a jew, he still is, but now he is a Messianic jew (A jew who belives in Yeshua being the Messiah). Btw Welcome again Rabbi! And don't worry about steppin on anyones toes, everyone here has very small feet ;) And stay as long as you want, no one is gonna push you away.

Shalom!
-Nossa

[Sephania]

Thank you R. Klein, I do hope that you have not taken what I said as an interegation, by no means.

Yafet, aka Simcha_Torah has been mysteriously absent for the past few days, not sure if he is taking a break from here or not. I am glad that you accepted his invitation, it is good to talk and share our thoughts.

May I publicaly welcome you here and extend the offer to be welcomed and comfortable in asking anything you'd like ( in accordance with the MJ guidlines of course H ;) ) and I am sure you will receive answers, they are all probably going to be different but you will get a feel ( if you stay long enough ) of where everyone is in their state of faith life. This is as good a cross section of MJ I have ever seen.

Shalom and welcome again! :)

[CharlesYTK]

I find it odd that so many gentiles are attracted to the Jewish lifestyle. It is not an easy one and is filled with hardship. I wonder if it makes it easier for a gentile to embrace Judaism if they do not have to let go of their messiah? Also, are the leaders of the Messianic sect all Gentiles as well or are any of them Jewish?

R. Klein
Hello again R. Klein,

As you said it is a sect. It has no organized learership as a denomination would have.

There are key figures, teachers and such who have had a powerful influence, and most of them are Jewish, who believe in Messiah. Still there is a mixture of Jew and Gentile all the way to the top.

[TracysTribe3]

I find it odd that so many gentiles are attracted to the Jewish lifestyle. It is not an easy one and is filled with hardship. I wonder if it makes it easier for a gentile to embrace Judaism if they do not have to let go of their messiah?
R. Klein:

Speaking for myself - I'm very new to exploring Judaism, but I truly feel led by God to study it. I can see how very, very much God has required of the Jews and I know I wouldn't be able to obey all of the laws he set up for them. So as I begin on this path of studying Judaisim, I already know I won't be able to live as an observant Jew, but I also don't feel that I'm required to (because of my Christianity beliefs). I'm not out to convert to Judaisim - but what I'm getting out of this is a much better understanding of the bible as a whole and of God. In Christianity you're taught that anything Old Testament is done away with except The Ten Commandments and I am questioning that now. I also feel a new respect and love for Jews and Israel, a need to pray for both.

Again - this is just me. There are a lot more intellectual people in here that can explain it better.

Nice to have a Rabbi around! Hope you post more.

[Yael]

I'm a born, fully practicing Jew. I am not a believer. I tend to visit a number of various sites from multiple religious perspectives just out of interest.

[mjterry87]

My great grandmother was Jewish, but my grand mother and mother were both raised Catholic, so I am not a Jew. Anyways, after I was baptized in April as a Christian, I started to look into the formation of Christanity and why it is nothing like its mother religion Judaism. I found the MJAA site, and learned about MJ. Since about June, I have been a Messianic. I have not been to my local MJ Synagogue because of my father's anit-semitism, but I do plan on going soon.

And Rabbi, Judaism to me, is what Yeshua preached. I feel that the Jews act more how Yeshua wanted his followers to than the Christians do. I have a deep respect for the Jews, and have wanted to convert, but lately I have found peace with my MJ faith.

Shalom :wave:

[Henaynei]

I find it odd that so many gentiles are attracted to the Jewish lifestyle. It is not an easy one and is filled with hardship. I wonder if it makes it easier for a gentile to embrace Judaism if they do not have to let go of their messiah? Also, are the leaders of the Messianic sect all Gentiles as well or are any of them Jewish?

R. Klein In every MJ congregation I have attended in the last 17 years (a grand total of 4) every Rabbi and Rebbitzin were Jewish, i.e. born of Jewish mothers. My husband, while not a rabbi, is Jewish and bar mitzvah'd in an orthodox shul @ 13. Every MJ congregation I have attended or visited has several Jewish members. Some were observant, others strongly against any
growth toward observance. As the demographics of the geographical areas, so the demographics of the congregations tended to be. There have always been more goyim than yehudim in the congregtions. But there HAVE always been Jews :)

[Jasmine-FL]

MJTerry, :wave:
i have a friend who is in the very same situation like yours and she said beit chabad (where she goes) considers her 100% jewish as long as you have a maternal jewish bloodline you are a jew i have just spoken on the phone with my (reform) rabbi and he said the same. if you can prove your it you're 100% jewish by jewish law.

In His Love,
~J~

My great grandmother was Jewish, but my grand mother and mother were both raised Catholic, so I am not a Jew. Anyways, after I was baptized in April as a Christian, I started to look into the formation of Christanity and why it is nothing like its mother religion Judaism. I found the MJAA site, and learned about MJ. Since about June, I have been a Messianic. I have not been to my local MJ Synagogue because of my father's anit-semitism, but I do plan on going soon.

[visionary]

More of the same story with another gentile who is convicted that Judaism with faith in Messiah is the truth. Observing, following the best way that a gentile can, you know, that stumbling, tripping, clumsy forum of a goyin that can't walk straight let alone talk right, but heading the right direction.

[Bon]

More of the same story with another gentile who is convicted that Judaism with faith in Messiah is the truth. Observing, following the best way that a gentile can, you know, that stumbling, tripping, clumsy forum of a goyin that can't walk straight let alone talk right, but heading the right direction.


That's pretty much me too.

Some years back, when I lived in Sydney, Australia, (I live in Melbourne, Australia now), I attended a Messianic fellowship.

The Rabbi there was 100% Jewish who came to believe in Yahshua Messiah, much to the dismay of the rest of his Jewish family, and I would say that 60% of the congregation were Jewish who now believed in Yahshua Messiah.

The rest of us gentiles were divided into two groups...
one - Messianic believers, who were Torah observant or working towards it, and
two - Christians, who held a great love for the Jews in their hearts and just wanted to come along and worship with us in a Jewish way. These also attended their own churches on a Sunday.

Shalom from Bon

[KelsayDL]

I find it odd that so many gentiles are attracted to the Jewish lifestyle. It is not an easy one and is filled with hardship. I wonder if it makes it easier for a gentile to embrace Judaism if they do not have to let go of their messiah? Also, are the leaders of the Messianic sect all Gentiles as well or are any of them Jewish?

R. Klein

I find it odd that you find this odd.

Considering all that is stated about gentiles coming to faith in the G-d of Israel throughout the "old" testament.


>>I wonder if it makes it easier for a gentile to embrace Judaism if they do not have to let go of their messiah?<<

I don't think so. It would seem to me the contrary would be true.

Gentile messianics (all messianics really) are not accepted by Jews or the christian majority. Give up the J-man as our messiah and well, the Jews would warm up to us. Give up Judaism and the christians get all warm and fuzzy with you.

Everybody wants you to give up something to be in line with them as a messianic.

[schwartmrs]

I am a Gentile. I was convicted as a child that some of what I was being taught in my Christian church wasn't right. I have had a love of the TaNaCH since I was old enough to listen to the stories. As a young teenager, I spent my free time reading Leviticus...I think I worried people ;)

As an adult, I married a Messianic Jewish man. What brought us together in the first place was our love of the TaNaCH. It wasn't until about 5 years ago that I realized that there was a name for people like us....Messianic.

What KelsayDL said is true, though. We have seen firsthand that we are "outside". The Jews don't like us because we're too Christian, and the Christians don't like us because we're too Jewish....but we will give up NEITHER. To remove either aspect from us would be to destroy what we are.

The Jews are God's people...it was fore-ordained that some would choose them as role models. We are that "some".

It's wonderful to have you here, Rabbi. Please feel welcome to ask, discuss, and enlighten.

Blessings,

Shade

[CharlesYTK]

I will share with you an old Talmudic Parable:

There once was a man who had two wives who loved him, one younger than himself and the other older than himself. When he was with the older woman, she would pluck out his dark hair because she liked the gray which made him look more distinguished. When he was with the younger woman she would pluck out the gray leaving the dark hair because it made him look more youthful. Soon neither woman loved him anymore, becuse of his bald pate.

This is how we are as a Messianics, Both the Church and the Jews would love us if they could change us, but since both have had time with us and torn away at us, neither one loves us.

[Sephania]

AHh, but HaShem loves the head of him who obeys him, counting every hair there, or counting none! ;)

[WildCelt]

I find it odd that you find this odd.

I too, can relate to this sentiment. Is not HaShem the G-d of all? Is the Torah really direction only on how Jews should live, or rather humans in general? If one seeks to follow the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, shouldn't one actually follow what He said, irregardless of blood or nationality?

To be sure, I do get the point of the statement--why would a goy want to follow Torah, because for centuries goyim have followed a type of easy-believism? Traditional teaching on Torah (from both sides) state Torah is for Jews, not Gentiles, so why would a Gentile want to willingly place themselves under it? It is very true that following Torah is much more difficult, from a human standpoint, than simply going to church on Sunday and not cussing.

But we are living in peculiar times, where Jews are being called to the Messiah Yeshua, and goyim are being called to the Torah!

If one is truly interested in following HaShem, one should do what He requires no matter the cost. In all honesty, following Torah as a goy is not easy. Family do not understand. Friends do not understand. I regularly hear, "BUT YOU'RE NOT JEWISH!" So what is a little persecution? I feel like I am finally getting into sync with the movement of creation, and I will not trade it for anything.

I do not expect any Jewish person to accept me, as a goy, "optionally" following Torah any more that I expect my family or friends. I do it because I follow HaShem, period.

[ShirChadash]

Ditto.

I find it odd that you find this odd.

Considering all that is stated about gentiles coming to faith in the G-d of Israel throughout the "old" testament.


>>I wonder if it makes it easier for a gentile to embrace Judaism if they do not have to let go of their messiah?<<

I don't think so. It would seem to me the contrary would be true.

Gentile messianics (all messianics really) are not accepted by Jews or the christian majority. Give up the J-man as our messiah and well, the Jews would warm up to us. Give up Judaism and the christians get all warm and fuzzy with you.

Everybody wants you to give up something to be in line with them as a messianic.
Shalom Rabbi,

you'll find that Messianics come, as Yafet says, in every color of the rainbow, so-to-speak. There are people who are "messianic" in name only, remaining in Christian churches and still holding to and celebrating every 'holy"day of Christianity... but adding a lil Jewish seasoning and maybe learning about the Levitical feasts for good measure... and then the more-Christian Messianics who still hold to a lot, lot, lot of the theology and concepts of Christianity, some of them key issues, while yet learning and embracing Judaism... and every possible stopping point on the spectrum from here on out... to the Messianics who convert/remain practicing Jews and simply believe, but have really not one thing to do with "Christianity" which they consider to be a paganized belief-system and not remotely required for faith in Yeshua as Messiah (and sometimes referred to as Messiah ben Joseph).

It seems to me that a number of Yeshua-believing Jews hold the Magen David icon here, because for the purposes of this Christian board, one must believe that Yeshua is HaShem to hold the "Messianic" Torah-scroll icon. So some of those who bear the Magen and who post or read among us are indeed Messianic Jews. I don't know if that is helpful info, but I thought it might help you out to know this.

~Z~

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Kelsay,

I find it odd that you find this odd.Considering all that is stated about gentiles coming to faith in the G-d of Israel throughout the "old" testament.
Oh Dear. Please don't misunderstand me, I think it is a beautiful thing that Torah is going forth. However it just seems odd to me because Torah is often not seen as an attractive thing. Especially when considering the struggles of the Jew and the torment we have received through the centuries for holding up this banner. I can't imagine people flowing in droves to embrace the Torah when considering the history of the Jewish people.

R. Klein

[Sephania]

And that is the essence Rabbi, it is not of human nature, it is not natural, it is not easy, but when HaShem calls as he is apparently calling in this time of history, many are hearing and answering that call even knowing the consequences of that answer.

Our Rabbi Yeshua said, those who find their life will lose it, and those that lose their life ( for his sake) will find it. In the natural it doesn't make sense. But in the ways of HaShem it is what only makes sense.

I believe it is as un-natural and uncomprehensible as the Jews as a people having their own land back after millinia. Who else could bring something like this about?

:) Shalom

[CharlesYTK]

The Jews were not the only ones to be pursecuted for Keeping Torah. The Messianics, under the names of Ebonites, and Natzarenes, and others throughout history have also been tortured and murdered by the mainline Christain churches. During the iquisition literally millions of Jews and Protestants and messianics were tortured and then burned at the stake. Our stand for Torah goes back to Yeshua. We as a group also have some experience at this. Our forefathers were exiled when Jeruslaem fell and went to the mountains of Pella and beyond. We are a remnant called for a purpose, to bring Torah back to the Gentiles around us and to show for HaShems glory to the world.

The Islands of the earth anxiously await the Torah and the revelation of the Sons of G_D.

[debi b]

May you be welcome and encouraged in this place.

I truely believe to understand Messiah one must understand Torah :)

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Charles,

The Jews were not the only ones to be pursecuted for Keeping Torah. The Messianics, under the names of Ebonites, and Natzarenes, and others throughout history have also been tortured and murdered by the mainline Christain churches. I am familiar with the first century sect of the Netzarim. However, I was not aware that they were persecuted unto death because of their Torah observance. The same with the Ebionites. Would you mind showing an old man a few references? thanks.

During the iquisition literally millions of Jews and Protestants and messianics were tortured and then burned at the stake. Again, I am unfamiliar with the idea that messianics were:
a) tortued during the inquisitioin
b) even existeted during this time

Our stand for Torah goes back to Yeshua. We as a group also have some experience at this. Interestingly, I have seen a lot of debate on this forum and most other messianic gatherings online concerning Oral Torah. It seems if there was a maturity in the messianic movement there would be a more solid answer given on this basic principles of Halacha. Even more so I was under the impression that even though there were smatterings of messianic Jews through the centuries the movement today is rather new and very very young in its conception.

Is this not correct? Prior the turn of the 20th century I only know of maybe a couple of congregations that even remotely were associated with "messianic". Even in these cases the congregations were made up of Jewish Rabbis who would accept Jesus as the acclaimed messiah and I don't think there was even any entire congregation, let alone a Beit Din, that was Messianic before this timeframe.

I suppose my question would be: In what way does the Messianic movement have "experience at this"?

R. Klein

[Henaynei]

Dear Kelsay,

Oh Dear. Please don't misunderstand me, I think it is a beautiful thing that Torah is going forth. However it just seems odd to me because Torah is often not seen as an attractive thing. Especially when considering the struggles of the Jew and the torment we have received through the centuries for holding up this banner. I can't imagine people flowing in droves to embrace the Torah when considering the history of the Jewish people.

R. Kleinpoint well taken rabbi - only time will tell, who will come through the coming holocaust having stood and died within the Jewish community and who will digress to preserve their life or that of their loved ones

I know all or almost all of us here would like to say "of course, I would!!" but the facts are that until you are face to face with the tiger you really don't know what you will do. There were even Jews who hid or denied that they were Jews, who lived among and as Christians, to escape horrible death...... who can blame them and who can say they are certain they would do differently.....

[CharlesYTK]

Dear Charles,

I am familiar with the first century sect of the Netzarim. However, I was not aware that they were persecuted unto death because of their Torah observance. The same with the Ebionites. Would you mind showing an old man a few references? thanks.

Again, I am unfamiliar with the idea that messianics were:
a) tortued during the inquisitioin
b) even existeted during this time

Interestingly, I have seen a lot of debate on this forum and most other messianic gatherings online concerning Oral Torah. It seems if there was a maturity in the messianic movement there would be a more solid answer given on this basic principles of Halacha. Even more so I was under the impression that even though there were smatterings of messianic Jews through the centuries the movement today is rather new and very very young in its conception.

Is this not correct? Prior the turn of the 20th century I only know of maybe a couple of congregations that even remotely were associated with "messianic". Even in these cases the congregations were made up of Jewish Rabbis who would accept Jesus as the acclaimed messiah and I don't think there was even any entire congregation, let alone a Beit Din, that was Messianic before this timeframe.

I suppose my question would be: In what way does the Messianic movement have "experience at this"?

R. Klein
To the Church, (the purseuors) the Messianics were "Jews and nothing more" and therefore fair targets of their hatred. The Messianics have always been that middle ground as I described in another thread here, like the man with two wives. Therefore the Messianic faith has been primarily home churchs and small groups. The openess of the faith is a more recent development, and therefore it seems like the movement itself is new, but I do not believe this to be the case at all. The Church fathers record or us the Messianic or Nazarenes existance up through the 5th century. Then things get a little murky, but it seems to have survived. Some of the AntiBaptists and Puritans seem to have been close in kinship keeping passover and sabbath and the basic law. It has been suggested by some that the american pilgrim feast of Thansgiving was actually sukkot Pilgrim style. (Not my theory mind you but when I read it, I found it interesing.
Here are a few tid bit from the 3 and 4th century.First part of this is from Christian think tank and includes the Epiphanius quotes.

Epiphanius.

When we come to Epiphanius (born and raised in Palestine), we finally get a by-name mention of the Nazarenes. His Panarion (generally known as the Refutation of All Heresies) was written during the period 374-376. Panarion 29 is a rather extensive treatment of his sources and data on the Nazarenes, and the salient facts about them are listed below:

a. The use both the Old and New Testaments, without excluding any books known to Epiphanius (7,2):

"For they use not only the New Testament but also the Old, like the Jews. For the Legislation and the Prophets and the Scriptures, which are called the Bible by the Jews, are not rejected by them as they are by those mentioned above [Manicheans, Marcionites, Gnostics]. "

b. They have a good knowledge of Hebrew and read the OT and at least one gospel in that language (7,4; 9,4):

"They a good mastery of the Hebrew language. For the entire Law and the Prophets and what is called the Scriptures, I mention the poetical books, Kings, Chronicles and Ester and all the others, are read by them in Hebrew as in the case with the Jews, of course."

"They have the entire Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew. It is carefully preserved by them in Hebrew letters."

c. They believe in the resurrection of the dead (7,3):

"For they also accept the resurrection of the dead "

d. They believe that God is the creator of all things (7,3):

"...and that everything has its origin in God"

e. They believe in One God and His Son Jesus Christ (remember the patristic defn. of divine Son!) (7,3; 7,5):

"They proclaim one God and his Son Jesus Christ."

"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things." (Note how significant this is--they did NOT differ from Christians in Christology! This demonstrates a High Christology on their part!).

f. They observe the Law of Moses (7,5; 5,4; 8,1ff)

"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things."

"By birth they are Jews and they dedicate themselves to the Law and submit to circumcision."

g. They are hated by the Jews and are officially ostracized in the synagogue prayer--probably the birkat ha-minim (9,2-3):

"However, they are very much hated by the Jews. For not only the Jewish children cherish hate against them but the people also stand up in the morning, at noon, and in the evening, three times a day and they pronounce curses and maledictions over them when they say their prayers in the synagogues. Three times a day they say: 'May God curse the Nazarenes.' For they are more hostile against them because they proclaim as Jews that Jesus is the Christ."

Pritz summarizes the data from the most important section of Epiphanius (Panarion 29,7) [NT:NJC: (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/bookabs.html#NT:NJC)44]:

"The data in this section present us with a body in every way 'orthodox' except for its adherence to the Law of Moses. If we remember that the Jewish Church of Jerusalem also kept the Law through the period covered by the books of Acts, then we have a picture of the earliest Jewish Christian community...The picture is not full, certainly, but what we are given in very way confirms the identity of the Nazarenes as the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem congregation."

Thus, Epiphanius is our first source on the Nazarenes, and he describes them as decidedly orthodox in all matters (including the deity of Christ), except that of observance of Jewish customs.

Sozomen lived a hundred years after the time of Constantine. Even at that late date, many local churches were still trying to keep the Sabbath of Elohim. Notice that Rome, and Alexandria were the exceptions; they totally ignored the Scriptural Sabbath.

Here is what the church historian, Socrates, who died in A.D. 440, wrote nearly a hundred years after Constantine's Sunday Law Decree was issued:

“Although almost all churches through the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Books, chapter 22.

The first Sunday laws were passed by Constantine in 325 AD. This would not be necesary had it not been a fact that many Churchmen were still keeping Sabbath.

[CharlesYTK]

Rabbi Klien,
Please understand that I am not trying to diminish the plight and purseutions of the Jewish people in any way. My heart mourns for what has happened to my Jewish brothers and sisters. But the fact is that the Church killed not only Jews during the inquisition but all who did not tow the party line of Rome. And the majority were not Jews or Messianics but Protestants. Some estimate over 40 million over the years of the inquisition. there is a lot of innocent blood on those so called holy hands.

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Charles,

Please understand that I am not trying to diminish the plight and purseutions of the Jewish people in any way.I would not think such a thing. I just am trying to address issues which I feel can not be compared.

While I appreciate the facts you presented above they seem to be addressing that which I did not put into question. I did not question the existence of Messianics during the Byzantine Era. From what I do understand the Netzarim were a living sect during this time. However I did question the persecution of Messianics during the times of the Inquisition, and beyond that, their existence during this time at all. At least 10 centuries later than what you have quoted. My questions seems to have been wholly ignored.

Again, I do not question the existence of Messinaics during the Constantine/Byzantine Era.

I aslo asked how one could justify the claim of "maturity" in the modern Messianic movement if it has only been a smattering of individual Messianics through the past two millenia. The Messianic movement as we know it today began around the turn of the 20th century and really didn't thrive until the past 25 years or so. Even still there is no set understanding of what the movement is, where it is going, or overall leadership. It seems from what I've seen on this forum and many other places that there really is no construct which defines the Messianic movement. Even more so very basic principles such as the establishment of a Beit Din and a common set of halacha are entirely non-existent.

While I won't argue whether haShem is directing the Messinaic movement (that would be saved for the debate section), I must take qualms with the idea of it having maturity or "experience" at all for that matter.

If you want to address these issues, great! But please listen to what I'm asking. I have not put into question the existence of Messianics during the Byzantine Era. Why then would you quote such? I hope I was evidently clear this time around :) and I do not mean to cause offense, I just have to take issue with some of what's been presented. Statments such as:
During the iquisition literally millions of Jews and Protestants and messianics were tortured and then burned at the stake.(emphasis mine)

and:
We as a group also have some experience at this.Thanks.

R. Klein

[johnd]

I will share with you an old Talmudic Parable:

There once was a man who had two wives who loved him, one younger than himself and the other older than himself. When he was with the older woman, she would pluck out his dark hair because she liked the gray which made him look more distinguished. When he was with the younger woman she would pluck out the gray leaving the dark hair because it made him look more youthful. Soon neither woman loved him anymore, becuse of his bald pate.

This is how we are as a Messianics, Both the Church and the Jews would love us if they could change us, but since both have had time with us and torn away at us, neither one loves us.
Excellent post.

[Henaynei]

I, for one, even though I have seen and believe proof that MJism has been around in variously large and small numbers since the time of Yeshua, would never claim "maturity" as defined by the presence of MJ halakah or beit din. Truth is while we yearn for such, we have none. The one group that has made a stab at creating a beit din has done, from my view, a laughable job and a sore discredit to MJ in their effort as they have created a "beit din" from women and non-observant men, none of which were even Jewish, and then presented themselves in all seriousness as an exciting step forward. BAh!

The major problem with MJism in this regard is 2 fold:
1) we don't have a central "leadership" to whom all agree to listen

2) there is just too much variety (as a rainbow) in the movement for there to be such a concensus - fact is that those of us who WANT true Torah observance and *really* understand the value of a real beit din are usually pushed aside and silenced by those who want "the form without the commitment."

Places like this forum, where it seems there is actually a fairly high percentage of folks who WANT true Torah observance and are committed, rarely exist IRL in one congregation. (Usually there are a few like us but the majority of the congregation are resistant to or out-right afraid of real Torah observance, not having yet shed their skins of church doctrine and practice - and as they, being the majority, are also the majority source of the congregational income...... well......)

We have all heard rumor of MJ congregations that are observant, and I can testify to the fact that there is a MUCH larger presence of such in cyber space of those who are "Torah positive" and "growing in Torah observance" than there were even 5 years ago..... there is evidence of a grassroots swelling that may overtake the leadership and eventually demand such. WE are MUCH less embattled than we were even a few years ago. But, truth be told, even here, we still tread lightly on eggshells at times ;)

[ShirChadash]

I, for one, even though I have seen and believe proof that MJism has been around in variously large and small numbers since the time of Yeshua, would never claim "maturity" as defined by the presence of MJ halakah or beit din. Truth is while we yearn for such, we have none. The one group that has made a stab at creating a beit din has done, from my view, a laughable job and a sore discredit to MJ in their effort as they have created a "beit din" from women and non-observant men, none of which were even Jewish, and then presented themselves in all seriousness as an exciting step forward. BAh!

The major problem with MJism in this regard is 2 fold:
1) we don't have a central "leadership" to whom all agree to listen

2) there is just too much variety (as a rainbow) in the movement for there to be such a concensus - fact is that those of us who WANT true Torah observance and *really* understand the value of a real beit din are usually pushed aside and silenced by those who want "the form without the commitment."

Places like this forum, where it seems there is actually a fairly high percentage of folks who WANT true Torah observance and are committed, rarely exist IRL in one congregation. (Usually there are a few like us but the majority of the congregation are resistant to or out-right afraid of real Torah observance, not having yet shed their skins of church doctrine and practice - and as they, being the majority, are also the majority source of the congregational income...... well......)

We have all heard rumor of MJ congregations that are observant, and I can testify to the fact that there is a MUCH larger presence of such in cyber space of those who are "Torah positive" and "growing in Torah observance" than there were even 5 years ago..... there is evidence of a grassroots swelling that may overtake the leadership and eventually demand such. WE are MUCH less embattled than we were even a few years ago. But, truth be told, even here, we still tread lightly on eggshells at times ;) http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s26/smilies-24545.png


Also, while I personally am well-assured that there have always been Messianic Jews, since Yeshua, who have lived as Jews and among non-Messianic Jews, intermarried with non-Messianic Jews and worshipped among non-Messianic Jews -- and thus they were simply Jews who believe in Yeshua... and therefore were slaughtered among the Jews in every age...

...nonetheless this is a different thing to me than the "Messianic Jewish Movement" that one by and large sees today and is considered to be "typical MJ", of which I would say I am not really a part. My family and I were led to every one of our faith stands (and we continue to be, since there is nothing remotely "Messianic" at all near where we live) utterly and entirely apart from the "Messianic Jewish Movement", while we were yet "Christians" who simply refused to stop short and be "satisfied" with a faith-walk that is less *anything* than our Abba intended for us.

It is only HaShem Himself Who has caused us to fall in love with His Torah, to seek to learn it, to seek to obey it out of love for Him and a desire to live as He has declared for all those who wish to be called His children. I don't know who is or isn't "high" up, involved, main movers and shakers in the Messianic Jewish Movement, and I don't care, because it has nothing to do with me. What *I* have been called to, and spend my time searching out and seeking, is a life and faith-walk that is consistent with what the Word of HaShem tells me pleases Him.

I do see a lot of people here, and am aware of people online whom I don't know to be here, who are seeking and desiring for Messianic Judaism as a movement to come to maturity, but I don't see it happening on larger scale for a while. Yet, I am very thankful that there *isn't* a proscribed "this you must believe to be called 'Messianic' in this world" listing at this time, because I think at this time it would be very christianized and very "church in a kippah"-like; I probably would have nothing to do with it, and simply seek to convert to Judaism... which leaves me... nothing at this time. At least here, I feel I may have fellowship with others who feel it vital to grow in Torah-observance as a natural part and progression of faith in Yeshua -- a Jew, Who told His followers to be Jews, to obey Torah, to Live by Torah, and promised to send the Ruach Elohim to His followers that they might set aside the flesh (which balks at "obedience" to anything but self) and obey Torah.

[debi b]

Are there any Jews in this forum who are also a part of the Messianic faith?

In my experience the largest group of people involved in messianic circles are coming from the historical church. For many (from my observation) it is a result of dissatisfaction with the "church" in varying degrees. But there are other reasons as well.

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Henaynei,

The major problem with MJism in this regard is 2 fold:
1) we don't have a central "leadership" to whom all agree to listen
Judaism itself also is fragmented in this regard with various sects such as Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and so on. You see, despite the fact that there are varying sects within Judaism every one of them has an authoritative body, a Beit Din. This helps establish each sect as a legitimate expression. I think you hinted at what one of the major issues: The one group that has made a stab at creating a beit din has done, from my view, a laughable job and a sore discredit to MJ in their effort as they have created a "beit din" from women and non-observant men, none of which were even Jewish, and then presented themselves in all seriousness as an exciting step forward. BAh!
If this is the only attempt by Messianics to establish an authoritative body then there will truly be no foundation and the roots will be shallow. IMO, if Messianic Judaism is to truly make Judaism believe it is a serious movement the establishment of a Beit Din must take place. Otherwise the movement will never be taken as a seriously authentic Jewish sect. A standardized approach to Torah observance is absolutely necessary or you will only have chaos and true maturity will never be reached.



R. Klein

[CharlesYTK]

Hey Rabbi Klein,

Sometimes
(some would say most of the time) I am a little dense! I guess I jumped in a different direction. The point I was trying to make with posting the records of the church fathers follows a logic sort of like this:

If an anthropologist dug up some fossils of a human -homo-erectus mixed in with some other bones of dinosaurs, he would be pretty excited and could say, even though threre are no bones of homo-erectus from the times between then and modern days, it shows that there must have been a continuous line from point A to point B. Unless we want to conclude that man vanished early on and then somehow spontaneously reappeared in modern times and was exactly anatomically the same.

Since we know that Messianics (those who followed apostolic Judaism) were the type of believers that existed in the days of the apostles and we see them still around and recored in the 4th and 5th centuries,(and labeled heritics to be elimiated) and then we see people today also practicing Apostolic Judaism, then it implies a continuous line from the days of the apostles until now. I grant that it might not be true, that perhaps apostolic Judaism faded away and has only in this century spontaneously reappeared. But when I remember the teachings of my father how his regard for the Torah was in the front of his priorities, and how he tried to observe some Kosher things, and keep the correct festivals in mind, perhaps he learned this from his father and so on. So perhaps, just maybe there was a sort of oral tradition that brought the seed of this faith along the path of time.

As for a Biet Din, well we get into a little problem here. You define maturity according to the authority of a ruling body of men. And I am not saying that is bad or good. It seems beneficial so long as it has the authority of God above it. For those of us who believe in Messiah, well, he is our only Rabbi. We are not to follow other teachers, call no man Rabbi, and call no man father, that is to be their disciples as we are to Yeshua. We are not to revere any man in the way as we do Messiah. His word is the only Halacha we are to use. Now it is OK to have teachers, so long as they teach only the teachings of the master, and do not make up new ways of doing things or new meanings that were not intended. This was the mistake the Christain church made. It formed a type of Biet Din and gave it so called "Apostolic succession", and authority to change anything it wanted. So all sorts of Pagan stuff was rolled into the religion and it became totally in opposition to the word of God, Torah. In a Jewish Biet Din the word is final and anything that is done must agree or compliment that. Not so in the Christain church. They claimed Sola Sciptura, but din't follow it.

But Messianics are more like the Jews in this regard as well, because we say the Biet Din can do nothing outside of the Torah and as it is taught by the master Yeshua. So in this the need for a biet Din is not as critical. Because a man who is born again, and is being led by the Ruach Hakodesh and submited to the Lord, usually comes to the same conclusion (or nearly so) as others. I realize there are still some differences, but they are mostly very small difference, though we make them big through our little disputations. We all agree on the bigger issues. (I am speaking about the group of Messianics who are Torah observant and not Christians who wear Kippot and blow the shofar and claim they are delivered from the law)

Our God is the same as your God. We have the same law, one law for you and the strangers that dwell with you, (thats us) and we have one Messiah who brings that law to our hearts, and makes us one person. There is one God, there is one law, and there is only one people of God, the faithful community that Adonai calls Israel. We are grafted in through faith and obedience, just as a jew who is secular and has no faith, but when one day he awakens to his state, repents and approaches Adonai, he too must be grafted into that faith comunity. It is not about ethnicity or Rabbinical rituals or man made ordinances . The Lord created all men to be faithful to him and to serve him with love and a willing heart. We do that here, every one of us, because God has called us to be his people, just as he called Abraham out of his people so long ago (a gentile at the time) and made his to be the father of all who would hear this call. "Through you Abraham all the nations of the world will be blessed". Elohim said. We are part of those nations Rabbi Klein. And he made a place for us, through his seed, not seeds as in many seeds, but seed, Yeshua, the Messiah, who made us all to be one all brought together as one people with one law, under the one God, through faith in his loving kindness.

Forgive me if I speak to boldly. The Jews were first, the Lord created Israel to show us the way so that we could follow your lead. Now let come behind you sir. For we love you, your people, your Elohim, your Messiah, and desire with all out hearts to serve him all the days of our lives. Don't regard us as late comers who want to displace you. Not at all. We want to stand with you and serve you as Gentiles who have found mercy in the Elohim of Abraham.

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Charles,

If an anthropologist dug up some fossils of a human -homo-erectus mixed in with some other bones of dinosaurs, he would be pretty excited and could say, even though threre are no bones of homo-erectus from the times between then and modern days, it shows that there must have been a continuous line from point A to point B. Unless we want to conclude that man vanished early on and then somehow spontaneously reappeared in modern times and was exactly anatomically the same.
Unfortunately man is not so 'scientific'. Man is susceptible to the whims and fancies of emotion. I place it to the forum here, and feel free to disprove me, that the modern Messianic movement does not carry a direct lineage with the Netzarim of the first few centuries. To my knowledge, and again feel free to prove me wrong, the Netzarim have long since been extinct. Even more so what is called "Messianic Judaism" in today's terminology reflects very little of what the original sect of Netzarim defined thmeselves to be.

I think the more important fact is that there is absolutely no historical record of a continuous Messianic sect. It simply ceased existence and a new movement has revived in recent years claiming the same title. Maybe it holds the same values and doctrine, but I would argue that much of messianism is quite different today than in the first few centuries.... but still, that's a seperate argument. What remains true is that there is no "unbroken link" and Messianism essentially dissapeared for well over a dozen centuries.

But you see Charles, you made some very distinct claims, such as:
During the iquisition literally millions of Jews and Protestants and messianics were tortured and then burned at the stake.

This is a very specific claim. I haven't heard of one Messianic, let alone millions, who were tortured and burned at the stake during the Inquisition. To make such a descriptive statement one must be able to validate the claim.

I grant that it might not be true, that perhaps apostolic Judaism faded away and has only in this century spontaneously reappeared. That dear Sir is exactly what my position is. However, I don't even think that what reappeared accurately reflects what existed in the first century.

You define maturity according to the authority of a ruling body of men.Actually, no. I define maturity as a body upholding Torah according to a single standard. However for this to happen you must have a Beit Din.

Right now it seems that Messinaic Judaism is fragmented and very very early in its stages. There seems to be no maturity in the movement and this is evident by no standard of Torah observance by the community. The only way this will come about is when a Beit Din is put in place and the community raises up a standard for Torah observance.

For those of us who believe in Messiah, well, he is our only Rabbi. I was under the impression that the Netzarim had a Beit Din. I believe it is exhibited in your Book of Acts, correct?

Also does Jesus cover all of the halacha that a community needs to abide by? I contend that he was a wonderful Rabbi who had many good teachings but obviously his teachings weren't comprehensive. That is why the Netzarim established a Beit Din.

His word is the only Halacha we are to use.This is an excellent example of how I think the modern Messianic movement does not reflect the Netzarim of the first century. The Netzarim, from what I've read, thought exactly opposite to this.

...call no man Rabbi...A bit extreme don't you think? A Rabbi in its most simple terminology is a teacher. There are to be no teachers?

We are not to revere any man in the way as we do Messiah.A grave misunderstanding. Judaism does not condone the reverence of any man as they would the Messiah (to come). While we give honor and respect to our elders and sages we do not worship any man. That is in direct opposition to Judaism!

It formed a type of Biet Din and gave it so called "Apostolic succession", and authority to change anything it wanted.From what I understand of Catholic Apostolic Succession (papal authority) there is no limit to their power. They can declare an individual as condemned to hell even! However, the Beit Din is soley concerned with how a community is to observe Torah. To make a comparison between the two would be a mistake.
But Messianics are more like the Jews in this regard as well, because we say the Biet Din can do nothing outside of the Torah and as it is taught by the master Yeshua.I say that the Rabbi Yeshua/Jesus did not cover every aspect of a community's Torah observance and it seems that the Netzarim agreed with me on this point as they created their own Beit Din.

I realize there are still some differences, but they are mostly very small difference, though we make them big through our little disputations. We all agree on the bigger issues. (I am speaking about the group of Messianics who are Torah observant and not Christians who wear Kippot and blow the shofar and claim they are delivered from the law)

Our God is the same as your God.This, quite honestly, is one of the major points where I would hold a dispute with Messianism. From what I have read (and again, this forum agrees) the belief in a trinity is core to Messianic Judaism. This is in stark contrast to Judaism. But the actual argument over this one aspect of G-d wouldn't be allowed in this section :) I'm just merely stating this is one point where I think Judaism and Messianic Judaism split pathways.

So I guess I would say there are some big differences between the two. Judaism would say you worship a different G-d all together. I suppose that if a Messianic were to deny the existence of a trinity then they might be accepted as a legitimate form of Jewish expression.

We are grafted in through faith and obedience, just as a jew who is secular and has no faith, but when one day he awakens to his state, repents and approaches Adonai, he too must be grafted into that faith comunity. Wouldn't you have to be recognized by that community in order to be grafted into it?

I can't simply walk around calling myself a Canadian. I would have to establish Canadian citizenship and be recognized by their government as Canadian.

From the perspective of Judaism the gentiles who are observing Torah would be grafted in via means of conversion or by worshipping HaShem (not a trinity) and submitting themselves to the authority of a Beit Din (this is if they don't convert).... a 'stranger' in the land so to speak.

We are part of those nations Rabbi Klein.Yes! I agree. Torah observance and worship of haShem are the first step in this process. However, I would contend that Messianic Judaism is either very minimally observing Torah and/or not worshipping haShem (The L-rd is one) before being a part of that larger community.

Don't get me wrong. I am truly impressed that Torah has taken hold in a people that did not value it before. I just can't sit idly by when people claim Messianic Jews were persecuted in the same way, and in essence "stealing" the persecution the Jews suffered and claiming it as their own. Nor can I say that Messianic Judaism has justified its claim of "maturity".

I don't think I would raise an eyebrow if a Messianic stated, "Yes... our movement is in an infant stage, but we believe G-d is restoring truth in this day and age." I might take arugment in that case over the truth, but I don't think I can agree that Messianic Judaism is truly mature.

R. Klein

[Sephania]

Just passing through. :wave:

[CharlesYTK]

Very well Rabbi Klein,

As I said before, I in no way diminish what attocities have been done to the Jewish people, and that in the name of Jesus for the most part. But it is an undisputable fact that all who were considered heritics by the Roman church were subject to their murders and Nazzarenes and those who maitained Torah were on the list of those called heritics. And under this persecution more Protestants were killed than any other separate group of people including the Jews. I didn't say there were millions of Messianics killed, I said that there were million of protestants and heretic killed and that Messanics were among them.


I state for you in very clear terms so that there is no misunderstanding, this is an open forum with a mixture of people posting here. Many who count themselves as being among this group of Messianics are still very much Christain in their doctrine. As you say we are just babes growing up. However those who practice "Apostolic Judaism" do not believe in the Trinity. This doctrine and Judaism is mutually exclusive to one another. There is only one God. We believe this and reject the Trinnitarian view.

Did the early church have a Biet Din? Yes, in Jerusalem. After the rebellion of Bar Kockba it was reorganized eventually in Rome, and there it tried to remove itself as a target of Roman persecuion through a blending of the faith with Roman practices. This was the roots of the Christain faith. (not the Messainics) But this was only one part of the believers that left Palestine, there were others who went instead to the mountains of Pella and remained faithful but hidden in home fellowships. Much as the Escenes did when Antiochus bought the high piesthood fom Antiochus Ephiphanes. The Saducean sect which took over Judaism was not the anointed priesthood of Zadokites was it? No. The Escenes were the anointed Davidic priesthood. So the entire shape of Judaism changed a bit. There is no remaining continuous line from Solomons temple to the Judaism of today is there? No. What is practiced today is the result of the biet Din of Yavneh 70 -135 AD which was also destroyed in 135 AD. And from that time on Judaism of various regions differ quite a bit. The Jews of eastern Europe do not have the exact same Halacha as the western European Jews, or the American or South american Jews. There are variations of traditions and practices among all of these. But we consider them to still be Jews Yes? I think so. So where was the Biet Din after 135, and the anhilation of Yavneh? It is contained in Talmud and then applied by each region according to how they best understand what is written.

Can you not allow us the same latitude to grow in our observance and to study and to grow from our Talmud, the Brit Hadahsa? Our purpose is the same, to be obedient to God and to love and serve our neighbors. Maturity as a faith will pobably not ever happen until Messiah comes. Until then we hold on to every little scrap of truth we can find. We could really use some help from our Jewish brothers. Help in dispelling the misunderstanding of scriptures and what they mean, and correcting false doctrine that is so entrenched in us, learning how to correctly approach Torah. How about a little help here Rabbi Klein? We need you more experienced brothers. You know one of the 5 injunctions given to Gentiles was to go to synagogue and to study Moshes. (Torah). Some of us remember this and are doing that. Some thorugh local synagogues, some through home study programs, some over the internet. We could use some help here.

[Rabbi Klein]

But it is an undisputable fact that all who were considered heritics by the Roman church were subject to their murders and Nazzarenes and those who maitained Torah were on the list of those called heritics.Understood... but they didn't exist during the Inquisition. If you disagree, please cite a messianic community that was persecuted during the Inquisition (or even existed during this timefram).

However those who practice "Apostolic Judaism" do not believe in the Trinity. This doctrine and Judaism is mutually exclusive to one another. There is only one God. We believe this and reject the Trinnitarian view.
I'm sorry. I was under the impression that anyone bearing the "messianic judaism" icon was implored to maintain the trinity doctrine and the Nicene Creed. I thought it was a rule to even debate in the Messianic Jewish section that one must adhere to the trinity and Nicene Creed.
Sorry, I guess I was mistaken.

Are those who adhere to Apostolic Judaism under a different set of rules, or did I read the rules incorrectly?

So the entire shape of Judaism changed a bit. There is no remaining continuous line from Solomons temple to the Judaism of today is there? No.Acutally, yes. It is a Christian misnomer that all of the geneological records were located in the temple. Most were actually cotained within the schul itself. Many Jews today can still clearly trace their lineage... these were not totally lost.

The Saducean sect which took over Judaism was not the anointed priesthood of Zadokites was it? No. Actually, the Saducees did not take over Judaism, but there was a split in the Beit Din. One, which was politically charged by Rome, was populated by Saducees. The other which was populated by the Pharisees was recognized by the common people of Israel. Also you had the Essenic community holding their own Beit Din.

Ultimately it was the Prushim (pharisees) who held the longest lasting Rabbinic and Beit Din influence to this day. It was the Prushim who formulated the Siddur service in the schul today.

And from that time on Judaism of various regions differ quite a bit. The Jews of eastern Europe do not have the exact same Halacha as the western European Jews, or the American or South american Jews. Yes and no. While Halacha does vary, it is in very minimal ways. The overwhelming bulk of halacha is (and was) common among all threads of Judaism. For example, every sect of Judaism observes the tying of the Tzitzit. However, from sect to sect you might have various patterns of knots. Is the halacha truly different? Yes, but again, only in minimal ways.

So where was the Biet Din after 135, and the anhilation of Yavneh? It is contained in Talmud and then applied by each region according to how they best understand what is written.Actually, it was moved to Usha. From there it moved consecutively to Shafar'am, Beth She'arim, Sephoris, and Tiberias. It remained functioning in Tiberias until shortly before the completion of the Talmud.

Can you not allow us the same latitude to grow in our observance and to study and to grow from our Talmud, the Brit Hadahsa? There are a few differences:
1) The sects of Judaism continued and still continue to hold a Beit Din which determines communal observance of Torah.
2) You yourself said Messianics reject the idea of a Beit Din. The movement is in chaos and dissaray. I firmly believe it is because as a community Messianic Judaism lacks Torah observance.
3) Even the NT (Brit Chadasha?) patterns out the practice of establishing a Beit Din. I believe the NT to be a very Jewish set of books. In this case, would it not be best to follow its instruction and establish some form of communal observance of Torah?


So it isn't really a matter of whether I have the patience for the Messianic community, its a matter of taking up the torch and running forward. You see, I am here because I believe Messianics have something special to offer. Many are simply out of their minds or are christians with a mixture of Judaism :) But there is a core of followers of this sect that I think have a passion many Jews haven't seen in years. Personally I'd like to see many of you in my own synagogue singing the Sh'ma :) Maybe haShem has something else up his sleeve. I do have the patience, but I would like to set a few things straight in our discussions.

As I reitereated previously the Messianics can not lay claim to the same persecutions the Jews went through. This is diminishing the suffering of the Jewish people. As well, they can not lay claim to a "maturity" yet.

I hate to continue hammering these points, but it seems that you have more to say that I must address each time.

R. Klein

[CharlesYTK]

As I reitereated previously the Messianics can not lay claim to the same persecutions the Jews went through. This is diminishing the suffering of the Jewish people. As well, they can not lay claim to a "maturity" yet.

I hate to continue hammering these points, but it seems that you have more to say that I must address each time.


And I do agree with you. I am not sure how the Messianic faith will ever form into a single body under a Biet Din. One of the problems is that you are dealing with a large group population that comes from mostly protestant Gentile backgrounds who have a mind set that says if you do not agree with the governing body, then just leave and start yet another denomination (6000 and counting as of this week I blieve) This mind set is geared toward individualism rather than community. And the life style of the 21st century in the west is still that of individual expression and single family units. Even members of ones own family can be excluded because of medical status or age, or different ideas about what is good for the family. It is like a barn yard full of headless chirkens. So how do we begin? I am at a loss. I can only deal with my own small family and position us in a community of believers who are truly making a biblical structure of Torah observance. This community for us is best viewed with "First Fruits of Zion". Our congregation was affiliated with this group from Beth Hillel in Tacoma Washington. Now that I have relocated to Florida for health reasons, I am only in contact through internet and through media teachings and books they produce. But they are fully Torah observant, and live as community with a small mature Biet Din that is partly Jewish and partly Gentiles but who all have been keeping Torah for some time. I would invite you to visit them on line or to read some of their books, like The Letter Writer by Tim Hegg, or Fellow Heirs by Daniel Langcaster.

www.ffoz.org (http://www.ffoz.org)

Our congregation which I am absent from is Bet HaShem. Our focus was to bring true Torah life to our members, we kept the festivals, and Sabbath, maintain the Triennial Toah cycle of readings, and do not believe in Trinity or weekly communion and such. Our leadership, a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Do we do everything just right? No probably not, but we do it as best we can, and ask Adonai to help us and to forgive our short comings. What else can we do in this situation?

Sorry to have offended you earlier. I ask your forgiveness Rabbi Klein.

[Rabbi Klein]

I think a good place to start is to bring together a round table of the more respected leaders in Messianic Judaism with a group of Conservative, Orthodox and Chassidic Rabbis. Maybe I'm crazy but I think a gathering like this would really flush out a lot. There seems to be a growing trend in recent years with the way Judaism views Messianic Judaism. Previously it was thought to be merely a heretical christian group. More and more now there are two patterns of thought. Either these "messianics" are in fact Jewish or they are evil and out to get our children :)

I tend to think along the lines of the former group. An open and honest communication with the Jewish community might be the best thing for your movement. Also, a willingness to learn and grow under more well learned men such as our late Abraham Heschel and Jacob Neusner (who both also held more radical views of what this "Messianic" movement is all about).

R. Klein

[ShirChadash]

What an awesome thing that would be, Rabbi.

[Henaynei]

Dear Henaynei,

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Judaism itself also is fragmented in this regard with various sects such as Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and so on. You see, despite the fact that there are varying sects within Judaism every one of them has an authoritative body, a Beit Din. This helps establish each sect as a legitimate expression. I think you hinted at what one of the major issues: If this is the only attempt by Messianics to establish an authoritative body then there will truly be no foundation and the roots will be shallow. IMO, if Messianic Judaism is to truly make Judaism believe it is a serious movement the establishment of a Beit Din must take place. Otherwise the movement will never be taken as a seriously authentic Jewish sect. A standardized approach to Torah observance is absolutely necessary or you will only have chaos and true maturity will never be reached.



R. Klein I basically agree - the problem with implementing that is in this day and age establishing an authoritive body is a real pickle as the prevailing attitude in most of the cultures where MJism resides is anti-authoritian. AND there are real battles when you try to insist on an authentic Judaism in a great many quarters. I am sure Yafet has at least alluded to this in his discussions with you. There ARE a growing number of both Jews and goyim within MJism who are insisting on a Torah authentic expression as the legitmate Messianic Judaism. The very fact that we are NOT one cohesive doctrinal block but divided ourselves into shade more numerous even than rabbinic Judaism means that none of these bodies will be willing to agree to one leadership when it comes to Halakah - AND those of us who have studied and grown into a progressively observant lifestyle committment are all too keenly and painfully aware that this is EXACTLY what MJism needs and will die without! Thus our petitions to HaShem and our battles here and else where.......

[Henaynei]

I think a good place to start is to bring together a round table of the more respected leaders in Messianic Judaism with a group of Conservative, Orthodox and Chassidic Rabbis. Maybe I'm crazy but I think a gathering like this would really flush out a lot. There seems to be a growing trend in recent years with the way Judaism views Messianic Judaism. Previously it was thought to be merely a heretical christian group. More and more now there are two patterns of thought. Either these "messianics" are in fact Jewish or they are evil and out to get our children :)

I tend to think along the lines of the former group. An open and honest communication with the Jewish community might be the best thing for your movement. Also, a willingness to learn and grow under more well learned men such as our late Abraham Heschel and Jacob Neusner (who both also held more radical views of what this "Messianic" movement is all about).

R. KleinMay it soon be!!! Would you be willing to work on implementing such a group??

[Henaynei]

One challenge is that most of us have experienced severe rejection (to be expected and certainly not held against anyone - if I thought someone was bent on destroying my family or community I'd fight too) from their known or local Jewish community - enough times to "love them from a distance." Actually, it is not the community per se, as the am haEretz of Judaism quite often are open and accepting of us. It is usually just the folks you suggest, the rabbis (again not an indictement - these persons are charged with the care and protection of their communities and their faith and righteously so can be like mother bears!! ;) ) who are vehemently against us.

Personally, in my community, the Jewish community leadership did a headhunt to find, import and install a rabbi whose job description was to rid our community of MJs - and he very effectively did destroy the first congregation. He also repeatedly and incessantly initiated tactics that included civil complaints and suits that they lost but that ate up the $$ resources of the small MJ community, and even instigated having police enter our MJ shul one erev Shabbat in the middle of the service and bring it to a full stop - all for some trumped up parking violations (we parked where the congregation whose building we rented had been parking for years) - and while these are relatively minor events and there are congregations in the US and abroad who have experienced (and still do) much worse, to these I can personally testify and gives you a tiny taste of why gathering with the rabbinic community to discuss a beit din or other issues has been something far beyond the farthest dreams of most ........ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_8_4v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_7_10.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[Rabbi Klein]

May it soon be!!! Would you be willing to work on implementing such a group??That is how I met Japheth. There were discovered a couple of messianics in our congregation of college students. Being the concerned Rabbi I pulled them aside. We have all heard horror stories of Jews for Jesus but this was different. These two young men weren't trying to convert any of our congregants.

Long story short my perspective has changed from the experience and I openly allow messianics to attend Torah studies. The discussion has been good for both sides and everyone has behaved themselves. As I previusly mentioned it seems that the tide is turning in the Jewish response to Messianism. It may have helped that there were a few other groups who held to what we believe a false messiah.

Although Japheth has moved on we still have our discussions. As for me, I'm no one to impact the Jewish community at large but we each do our part. I don't think I'd be one to sit in on that round table but I certainly could point many in the right direction.

R. Klein

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Henaynei,

Personally, in my community, the Jewish community leadership did a headhunt to find, import and install a rabbi whose job description was to rid our community of MJs - and he very effectively did destroy the first congregation. He also repeatedly and incessantly initiated tactics that included civil complaints and suits that they lost but that ate up the $$ resources of the small MJ community, and even instigated having police enter our MJ shul one erev Shabbat in the middle of the service and bring it to a full stop -These are truly horrible things. I am deeply sorry this happened to you.

However, you also have to understand that there is a lot of fear coming from the Jewish perspective when viewing Messianics. The history of Jews for Jesus is often just as shameful. As well the christian church (while relations have improved) was historically one of our greatest persecutors... all in the name of your Messiah.

I do not condone or excuse the actions of those who were brought against you. It is truly terrible. But also please realize that many good hearted Jews are reacting in fear.

R. Klein

[Henaynei]

Dear Henaynei,

These are truly horrible things. I am deeply sorry this happened to you. [/color][/font][/color][/font]

However, you also have to understand that there is a lot of fear coming from the Jewish perspective when viewing Messianics. The history of Jews for Jesus is often just as shameful. As well the christian church (while relations have improved) was historically one of our greatest persecutors... all in the name of your Messiah.

I do not condone or excuse the actions of those who were brought against you. It is truly terrible. But also please realize that many good hearted Jews are reacting in fear.

R. KleinDear Rabbi,

Do understand that I *DO* understand, turly. These things angered, hurt and frustrated me, for a short season. Learning, understanding, forgiving and loving still were all part of the growth through which HaShem has led me. I have read, studies, asked, listened... then asked and listened and asked again.... over the last 18 years...... I love my husband's people, foibles, thorns, fears, pains, sterotypes (OIY), warmth, love, humor and all!! I neither condem those who acted this way - as I said in my post :) I do understand and likely would have done much the same, or more, had I been the Jew and they the perceived threat ....... (a people who have endured and outlived perceived threats over the millenia that proved to be more horrifically real then even their worst night terrors could envision - and all too frequently from those who used the cloak of christianity, and from those who called themselves friends)