Question about Jews and abortion

[Bulldog]

Hello fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. If you don't mind I have a question: Do Jewish texts have any content regarding abortion?

[simchat_torah]

The answer depends on which sect of Judaism you refer to.
Orthodox: Strictly prohibits abortion
Conservative: Abortion is not allowed
Reform: Anything goes, though abortion is typically looked down upon.... but again, anything goes

Messianic: Well, most are anti-abortion, but there is no general council that decides what is acceptible in MJ'ism, so it really is somewhat of a random call to make.

[Talmidah]

The answer depends on which sect of Judaism you refer to.

Conservative: Abortion is not allowed

According to my rabbi, in general abortion is not allowed. But in a case where the mother's life would be in danger by carrying the pregnancy, it is allowed since the fetus is seen as rodef and a harm to the mother.

[simchat_torah]

That's somewhat why I made a slight difference between Conservative and Orthodoxy. Life is the highest priority according to Torah, and all mitzvot bow down to life. In other words, if life is at stake, the mitzvot must be placed aside.

[mylene]

That's somewhat why I made a slight difference between Conservative and Orthodoxy. Life is the highest priority according to Torah, and all mitzvot bow down to life. In other words, if life is at stake, the mitzvot must be placed aside.

How did Moses deal with the problem of abortion in those days?

It would be very helpful for us to know their approach.

If G-d also spoke directly about females terminating their pregnacies, it

would be very insighjtful as well.

Was abortion even possible back then?

[Talmidah]

In other words, if life is at stake, the mitzvot must be placed aside.
Baruch HaShem!!!!:clap:

[P_G]

Now I am going to speak on this and make lots of enemys no doubt.

Abortion is murder - period

And murder most foul because 99.9% of all abortions are done because being pregnant or becoming a mother is inconvienent. One way or another.
Mother is too young
Not enough money
Not from the right man
Not married
Lots of reasons not one good

Please don't tell me about the .1% of abortions that arise for medical reasons or because the womman was raped it is not a true issue. What is an issue is that we as a people chase after false Gods constantly and convienence and money are two of the biggest.

So we sacrifice our children to a false god
And we think that El'ohim is going to stay silent on this isssue

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

(Did you know that Hebrew does not render on this thing?)

This thing dishonors YVWH
You bow down to false gods
Many times because of Adultery the pregnancy occurs
and you Murder


43 Million Americans have been MURDERED by the abortionist!

:mad:

There is the Messianic Gentile perspective and if you want to hear some one really rant on it then I will get dear sweet Ms Bonnie my wife to write a few pages. (Right now she is scribing me a handwritten Torah what a good wife I got you know it?)


Blessings
Weeping for the children now :(

Pastor George

[simchat_torah]

I personally don't believe in abortion either. I was merely explaining the Orthodox and Conservative viewpoints.

I have never seen or heard of a medical case of abortion saving a mother's life. I will get into this in greater detail tommorow.

[Talmidah]

Now I am going to speak on this and make lots of enemys no doubt.

Oh no, I totally agree with you Pastor George. I have never met anyone who would qualify as needing an abortion to save her own life. If there have been such cases, then I would hate to think of the horrible choice the mother and father would have to make.

I was only wanting to further clarify what Yafet stated regarding the Conservative Jewish viewpoint on the subject.

May G-d bless you, Pastor George

:cry: weeping also for all the babies whose lives have been taken due to the 'choice' made by their 'mothers'

[BenTsion]

I have never seen or heard of a medical case of abortion saving a mother's life. I will get into this in greater detail tommorow.

I've heard of many cases like that (since mom's a doctor she's told me a lot). I don't think anyone would condemn a woman whose life were at stake because she has a high-risk pregnancy. I mean, chances are that if she doesn't have an abortion, BOTH her AND the baby will die anyway.

I am usually totally against abortion (for the same reasons you guys have already stated), since Torah strictly forbids murder. But in case a girl is raped, then I don't know that I would condemn her either - it's a very tough situation.

Here in Brazil abortion is only authorized in case of rape or when the doctors think it's best (i.e. high-risk pregnancy, malformation of the baby, disease, etc.). But of course that doesn't stop thousands of people from going to illegal abortion clinics (if you could call those 'clinics'). :sigh:

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Henaynei]

I personally don't believe in abortion either. I was merely explaining the Orthodox and Conservative viewpoints.

I have never seen or heard of a medical case of abortion saving a mother's life. I will get into this in greater detail tommorow.
FYI - in the early fifties there was a mom who had lost two pregnancies to miscarriage. In her third pregancy she had severe medical problems and the doctors (LONG before Roe v Wade) strongly recommended she have a medical abortion as they felt her life was in danger. She managed to carry and deliver that child - a premie. Her next two pregnancies were also very difficult and ended in miscarriages - the third was so difficult and life threatening athat even her mother staunchly agreed with the doctors and urged her to abort - she chose to carry - and it nearly cost her life.

I was the first child, my sister the next....

to learn from this:
1) yes, there are numerous situations where abortion could save a mother's life
2) not every time the Doctor says the mom's life is at risk does it mean that she will die - it is a cr*p shoot
3) Roe V Wade was not necessary as medically necessary abortions were available all along
4) FYI - I am staunchly pro-life - and have been arrested with Operation Rescue - but I have to agree that the mom's life is paramount - even if it makes me physically ill to contemplate abortion

[simchat_torah]

Allow me to explain myself:

One can not tell if a pregnancy will actually cause death to a mother. Doctors can predict if a pregnancy will cause complications, but never can they tell if a woman will die from a pregnancy. Yes, sometimes women have died in the past because our medical science isn't where it is today. However, we have advanced enough in technology to prevent most, if not all, deaths due to "difficult" pregnancies.

No where, absolutley no where, is there medical evidence that a woman WILL DIE from any pregnancy. This simply is not something that can be predicted.

A doctor can however predict if a pregnancy will be difficult, but that's the extent of what they can tell.

shalom,
yafet

[simchat_torah]

But the question wasn't "what does Yafet think about abortion"... no, the context of the question was concerning Judaism and its response to the abortion issue.

[Henaynei]

But the question wasn't "what does Yafet think about abortion"... no, the context of the question was concerning Judaism and its response to the abortion issue.
And Judaism says that if the medical opinion, and I'd want to get more than one opinion, is that there is a very significant probability that the pregnancy will cause the death of the mother that it is better to terminate the pregnancy than gamble with the mother's life.

[P_G]

But the question wasn't "what does Yafet think about abortion"... no, the context of the question was concerning Judaism and its response to the abortion issue.
Actually the original question was what do the "Jewish" texts have to say

Hello fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. If you don't mind I have a question: Do Jewish texts have any content regarding abortion?
So I think we can agree that the Torah qualifies as a "Jewish" Text

(Am sorry to use the King James here I dont have anything else on this PC that would render. Why wont Hebrew show up on this thing anyway?)

1 G-d knows us and sees us as human and viable before we are born: (not Torah)

Jer 1:5 I knew you before I formed you in the belly; and before you came out of the womb, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

2 G-d says it is wrong to murder:

Exo 20:13 You shall not murder.

3 One of the main reasons people have abortions is that the baby is out of wedlock G-d says:

Exo 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.

4 G-d says NOT to sacrafice children to false gods

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

5 Life and death is the providence of G-d himself (yes I know this is not from the Torah)

Job 1:21 And he said, I came naked out of my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. YVWH gave, and YVWH has taken away. Blessed be the name of YVWH.

6 Thus if we take the provedence of G-d do we not cease to honor Him as G-d? Have we not said "I am god!" Well G-d says this:

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


What we have here is sin trying to cover other sin.

Bless the mothers of the nation. I think I will again add moms to my prayer list here again for a few days just because I really truly pray that they are blessed. - Thank you MOMS!

Much Love
Blessings
Pastor George

[simchat_torah]

My mother too was involved in a number of organizations. She was a counselor for Crisis Pregnancy Center. Women are absolutley devistated mentally after an abortion. It is no light matter as the liberal movement would have you believe. As well, one of the most dangerous operations a woman can undergo is an abortion. It is completely unnatural for the body, has extremely complicated medical risks, and often causes long term damage to the woman's body. There is nothing good that really comes from it. To say it is safer for a woman to have an abortion than to give birth is an utter joke.

A woman's body prepares itself for birth, but the body rejects what happends to her during an abortion.


Anywho... I'm preaching.

Yes, both my parents were involved in Operation Life. Ever since I was a kid we pickted abortion clinics, etc. I was highly informed about the medical complications and risks involved in aboriton since I was very young.


Even if I didn't believe it was wrong to murder an unborn child, abortion is still completely illogical. It has a higher risk of long-term damage than breast cancer and continues to affect women psychologically in very very negative ways.

One more quick note...
it is better to terminate the pregnancy than gamble with the mother's life.
Just from a philisophical standpoint... which form of gambling has the higher risk of death? Choose one from below:
1) Having the baby:
A with a mother's life (which btw, our medical technology today for the most part eliminates this) has very very low chances of death (if any b/c of medical technology) and the baby living?
or...
2) Abortion:
Abortion, which can cause serious medical complications for the mother, and garuntees a 100% chance of death for the baby?

Which one has a higher chance for death? 100% chance the baby will die (and mother have complications) or a slight possibility (if any... let's say less than 1%) that the mother might die?

Like I said, this is just a philisophical argument.... not that I wanted to bring it up, but the mention of "gambling" got me thinking.

shalom,
yafet.

[P_G]

You know what I got to thinking about this morning

Durring WWII Six Million Jews were murdered in the great holocost.
I bet that in that 6 million there were a couple that were criminals
maybe a small handful really bad ones even murderers. Say 6?

Now those very few you might make an argument that they should perhaps for the
good of society be executed.

Now doesn't that sound like a good argument for keeping genocide legal and safe? :confused:

No I didn't think so either

So why do people use that very same argument on this issue?

Blessings
Much Love

PG

[simchat_torah]

Over the past 100 years there have been more abortions than all the deaths of all the wars and battles of history combined.


In 100 years, we have killed more babies than every single human death in every war and battle combined. :cry:

[simchat_torah]

In America ALONE there were over 2 Million recorded and legal abortions in 2003.


I was only able to find statistics for 1987 for global totals. (every year the abortion total rises... it wouldn't surprise me if this number were 50% higher today):
31 MILLION legal abortions and between 10-22 MILLION Clandestine Abortions bringing the total to 41-53 MILLION abortions in THAT YEAR ALONE!!!

[simchat_torah]

yes... call me crazy. I tend to think that over 50 million babies slaughtered a year is just plain wrong.

Maybe I am crazy, and if so.... I don't want to be sane.

[BenTsion]

It is so sad that there actually are people who believe slaughtering unborn babies is ok because it's the mother's choice. Why didn't the mother in question exercise such choice BEFORE having the intercourse?

What is scarier about the figures presented by Yafet is that this is happening in a time when it is extremely easy to prevent/control conception. I mean, women having abortions could have easily made use of lots of methods to prevent it (many of them can even be used in combination). What if we didn't have such options? How many babies would be aborted a year? A billion? :cry:

By the way, I have a question which people here haven't addressed yet. What about a case of rape? Is it ok to have the abortion or not? :confused:

Personally, I think we shouldn't fix a sin (rape) with another one (murder), but it's easy for me to say since it has never happened to someone dear to me. I must admit that I don't know if I'd be totally against it if my wife or daughter were raped... (oh my, that's something I can't even imagine!)

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Henaynei]

folks - I am NOT pro-choice/death!! I am enthusiasticlly Pro-Life! I am TOTALLY against abortion except in the absolute extremity of the birth causing the loss of life. I do not and will not advocate abortion, period.

But I as a medical professional I have had to face many harsh realities that non-medical folks rarely encounter, this is only one. The Rabbis of Talmud(whom we laud and follow in so many other things) over the centuries have encountered these too, and they have had to make hard halakic decisions. "Modern Medicine" is not the omnicient entity often believed. And note: at the time these rabbis codified these halakot an abortion was almost as dangerous as a birth - so if abortion was chosen over a live birth there was a d*rn good reason.

IF the choice has to be made, the already existant life of the mother is chosen over the potential life of the child, to the grief of all. There are always extenuating circumstances such as a pregnant woman in a coma - likely the life of the child would be chosen over the mother - and there will always be the one miraculous case you can point to say "see what can happen." B"H!

My point is that, as much as I would deeply desire it to be, this is not a black and white issue in THIS circumstance.

I personally would seek the opinions of g-dfearing doctors and the counsul of my family and rabbi before ever considering such a possibility.

[simchat_torah]

I know a couple where the wife was raped. She couldn't bear the thought of raising the child.... so they gave the child up for adoption. I think it its something you have the strength to face, then more power to you. Otherwise, this is why certain programs exist.

[Henaynei]

It is so sad that there actually are people who believe slaughtering unborn babies is ok because it's the mother's choice. Why didn't the mother in question exercise such choice BEFORE having the intercourse?

I totally agree BenTsion, Momma's choice ended when she said "yes."