Anyone else heard that the church is Israel?

[Sephania]

The church is the Israel of G-d and the Mennorah is her symbol. Is this just someone's idea, or is this a new teaching in the Chrisitian church. I didn't want to ask there beacuse this person seems to be teaching, so I think will uphold their position.

http://www.christianforums.com/t830126

Anyone hear of this before?:confused: Besides the RCC teaching of revelation's woman.

[debi b]

Yup - pretty much the ol replacement theology stuff

[ShirChadash]

Sadly... no big shock.

[Sephania]

Yet that is exactly what they say it is not, so they are aware of that. Makes me wonder what is beig taught in churches. I try to flip through the channels on Sunday mornings to see for myself but I guess not all denoms are represented.

[debi b]

I am growing more aware all the time that when we are speaking to people, we often use words and we think we know what they mean but come to find out that the other person has a different definition. Part of the art of communication is not just hearing but understanding.

I used to think that the sky was the same color of blue for everyone.....

[ShirChadash]

This is why it is so dangerous when people misuse and misunderstand terms like "spiritual Israel" and "spiritual Jew".

[BT]

Yet that is exactly what they say it is not, so they are aware of that. Makes me wonder what is beig taught in churches. I try to flip through the channels on Sunday mornings to see for myself but I guess not all denoms are represented.
Replacement theology is also often termed "covenant theology" or "covenentalism". It is the antithesis of dispensationalism which teaches that Israel is a seperate entity from the church, Israel are still G-d's (I only do that here for you all) people, and Israel will be redeemed. Dispensationalism is what is generally taught in the Baptist church. It is what is taught in my church, though you will not see me when you flip channels :) .

[muffler dragon]

I haven't read/heard/seen it in the last five minutes or so.

Nathan

[BT]

Hey I'm on your side. As far as I know, Catholics believe they are the "True Church"... like you I don't have the energy to bother with such anti-biblical nonsense. And also not all of them feel this way. But most are taught this.

[debi b]

Replacement theology is also often termed "covenant theology" or "covenentalism". It is the antithesis of dispensationalism which teaches that Israel is a seperate entity from the church, Israel are still G-d's (I only do that here for you all) people, and Israel will be redeemed. Dispensationalism is what is generally taught in the Baptist church. It is what is taught in my church, though you will not see me when you flip channels :) .

Covenantal Theology is typical of reformed theologians. This includes the Reformed and Christian Reformed, the Presbyterian, the Anglican (or Episcopal), and to some extent, the Lutheran. The Catholics also recognize the same approximate divisions of scriptural history, while differing on the question of man's responsibility in the covenant of grace. Taken together then, the covenantal view must be considered by far and away the predominant view.

The dispensational view is of more recent origin, arising from the evangelical awakening in American and England. Through the work of Jesse Penn-Lewis, T. Austin Sparks, J.N. Darby (who is given credit for formally bringing the view to light) Dwight Moody, C.I. Scofield (who included it in the Scofield Bible) Watchman Nee, and Lewis Sperry Chaffer, this view has become widespread and popular today. It is the view of most pentecostals, Brethren, many Baptists, and most independent Bible churches.

Covenantal Theologians organize all history and theology around several covenants, or arrangements between God and humans or the Son.

Dispensational theology organizes history and theology around a series of dispensations, which are each different "economies" or arrangements decreed by God. Each dispensation begins with an offer of blessing by God, and ends with failure by man to meet God's conditions and a resulting period of Divine judgement.

[Dispensational Theology] 'Israel' always means only the literal, physical descendants of Jacob.

[Covenantal Theology] 'Israel' may mean either physical descendants of Jacob, or spiritual Israel, depending on context.

[DISP] God has 2 peoples with 2 separate destinies: Israel (earthly) and the Church (heavenly).
[CT] God always had only one people , the Church gradually developed through the ages, in accordance with an Covenant worked out in etrnity past between the "Three Persons of the Godhead."

DISP] All OT prophecies for 'Israel' are for the physical nation of Israel, not the Church.
[CT] Some OT prophecies are for national Israel, others for spiritual Israel.

[DISP] God's program in history is mainly through separate dispensations.
[CT] God's program is history is mainly through related covenants, but all those covenants were derived from the eternal covenant that the Trinity made in eternity.

[DISP] Most teach that men in the OT were saved by faith in a revelation peculiar to their Dispensation, but this did not include their faith in the Messiah as their sin-bearer.
[CT] All men who have ever been saved have been saved by faith in Christ as their sin-bearer, which has been progressively revealed in every age.

Very elaborate thinking has evolved around these two views on how the world works. Understanding these two very important topics can help bring clarity on why people think the way they do on certain topics.

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Yup - pretty much the ol replacement theology stuff

Eh coul you explan this in more detail, not all of us know al this stuff...sadly :(

[ShirChadash]

One of my favorite articles on Israel and the Church:

http://www.thewatchman.net/church.html

[Bon]

Eh coul you explan this in more detail, not all of us know al this stuff...sadly :(

Uh! Yeah!...Im with you Noosa....It's confussing.

I think it was my first or second post on these forums that I was told that I was a replacement theology believer. I never thought I was.:scratch:

I thought we (gentiles) were grafted in to the olive tree that is Israel.

I haven't a clue what you all believe, maybe you can shed some light on the matter for Noosa and me once and for all.

Maybe debi b can also add the MJ beliefs onto the Dispensational theology and Covenantal theology

Covenantal Theologians organize all history and theology around several
covenants, or arrangements between God and humans or the Son.
Messianic Judaism:

Dispensational theology organizes history and theology around a series of dispensations, which are each different "economies" or arrangements decreed by God. Each dispensation begins with an offer of blessing by God, and ends with failure by man to meet God's conditions and a resulting period of Divine judgement.
Messianic Judaism:


[Dispensational Theology] 'Israel' always means only the literal, physical descendants of Jacob.

[Covenantal Theology] 'Israel' may mean either physical descendants of Jacob, or spiritual Israel, depending on context.
Messianic Judaism:


[DISP] God has 2 peoples with 2 separate destinies: Israel (earthly) and the Church (heavenly).
[CT] God always had only one people , the Church gradually developed through the ages, in accordance with an Covenant worked out in etrnity past between the "Three Persons of the Godhead."
Messianic Judaism:


DISP] All OT prophecies for 'Israel' are for the physical nation of Israel, not the Church.
[CT] Some OT prophecies are for national Israel, others for spiritual Israel.
Messianic Judaism:


[DISP] God's program in history is mainly through separate dispensations.
[CT] God's program is history is mainly through related covenants, but all those covenants were derived from the eternal covenant that the Trinity made in eternity.
Messianic Judasim:


[DISP] Most teach that men in the OT were saved by faith in a revelation peculiar to their Dispensation, but this did not include their faith in the Messiah as their sin-bearer.
[CT] All men who have ever been saved have been saved by faith in Christ as their sin-bearer, which has been progressively revealed in every age.
Messianic Judaism:

[/b]I always believed that replacement theology was christians who believed that they had replaced the Jews as the chosen people of Yahweh.[/b]

So tell us something different and please make it clear and simple.
:confused:

with thanks from Bon

[debi b]

Replacement Theology is a doctrinal teaching that originated in the early Church.
Replacement Theology was introduced to the Church shortly after Gentile leadership took over from Jewish leadership. The basic tenants as I understand them are these:

1 Israel (the Jewish people and the land) has been replaced by the Christian Church in the purposes of Adonai, or, more precisely, the Church is the historic continuation of Israel to the exclusion of the former.

2 The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans.

3 Apart from repentance, the new birth, and incorporation into the Church, the Jewish people have no future, no hope, and no calling in the plan of Adonai. The same is true for every other nation and group.

4 Since Pentecost of Acts 2, the term "Israel," as found in the Bible, now refers to the Church.

5 The promises, covenants and blessings ascribed to Israel in the Bible have been taken away from the Jews and given to the Church, which has superseded them. However, the Jews are subject to the curses found in the Bible, as a result of their rejection of Christ.

The point that I was trying to make earlier was that there is a difference between Covenantal Theology and Dispensational Theology. I think that there can be some differences in how people define these theological positions. At the end of the day, many people have these concepts influencing the framework of their thinking and it is very helpful to understand that. I also think that there is much mixing of the concepts within different groups, and you can see how nicely replacement thinking fits into them.

Sorry Bon, I would not presume to state doctrinally the "position" of Messianic Judaism as it relates to many of these areas. In many ways MJ is still maturing, and it is developing into two main branches IMO. But I can state IMO the two main trains of thought within Historic church circles is not Hebraic and leaves much to be desired.

[visionary]

Uh! Yeah!...Im with you Noosa....It's confussing.

I think it was my first or second post on these forums that I was told that I was a replacement theology believer. I never thought I was.:scratch:

I thought we (gentiles) were grafted in to the olive tree that is Israel.

I haven't a clue what you all believe, maybe you can shed some light on the matter for Noosa and me once and for all.

Maybe debi b can also add the MJ beliefs onto the Dispensational theology and Covenantal theology

[/b]I always believed that replacement theology was christians who believed that they had replaced the Jews as the chosen people of Yahweh.[/b]

So tell us something different and please make it clear and simple.
:confused:

with thanks from Bon I am as a believer that we are grafted in, not replacement but fellow sojourners.

[debi b]

:) It would be very helpful to study the Biblical concept of a gere rG Stong's concordance number 1616. Adonai has always made a way.... :)

[Sephania]

Here are some of the main reasons I brought this up, not because I have'nt known about replacement theology for over a decade but because this is something new here to me. Is this being taught or is this an individuals idea?

Go to thread to read whole post.


One of the reasons the Church has been dwindling in its seasoning effect on the world, and why it has so many factions is because it suffers from an identity crisis (namely amnesia).

We are the Israel of God.

[Sephania]

The Symbol of the Church

http://www.blmj.org/BLMJShop/judaica/JU2011309.jpg:eek:

[Sephania]

The Messiah's new name is Israel (the Ultimate Prince of God). And we bear the name of the Messiah as well as Yerushalayim Nu (New Jerusalem, idicating we are not the ten virgins but the bride in the parable of the 10 virgins) and of benai YHVH (the tetragrammaton) sons of God. .

[muffler dragon]

Zayit:

I suggest you delete these posts. You're not allowed to post someone else's words without their permission; especially when they are not allowed to defend them here.

Nathan

[Sephania]

thank you MD for peer moderating me, I was not aware this was in all forums, I only thought it was for the denomination ones as I have seen others post posts from elsewhere on the boards.


*EDITED to say* That I have, since deleting those posts, gone into the forum I found this and it is not a denominational forum but one open to all believers to debate on the Bible. I have read the rules in that forum and the whole forum rules and our rules here and found nothing to indicate I posted wrongly.
I am not debating anyones beliefs or denom but rather this interpretation. I am asking if anyone here knows if this is the teaching that is going through the Protestant church ( because I don't think it is the OC or RCC) or if it is an individuals interpretation.

I hold nothing against this person nor his beliefs.
That is all.
:)

[Sephania]

If I have misread or missed period I ask that the kindly MJ staff would inform me of the rule violation and I will gladly re-delete my posts.

:)

[BT]

I hold nothing against this person nor his beliefs.
That is all.
:)
Hi Zayit. I'm not sure if this person's church is teaching him this or if it's something that he came up with on his own. Covenant theologians (reformists etc.) do teach that the church is the new or the spiritual Israel.. but I've never seen them say that the menorah (that's probably spelled wrong) is the symbol of the new church.... So while there are churches who teach this kind of theology this guy might be stretching even that to a new length...

[Talmidah]

:cool:

[Sephania]

I'm sorry I guess I haven't made it clear, I only wanted to know if anyone here has heard of this teaching, I dont' see where these comments need to be defended, if so I would have asked in the thread.

Thank you BT, It is good to hear from a Christian that the sign of the church being the Menorah is not something that you have seen being promoted as the symbol of the church.

Shalom :)

[Talmidah]

I'm sorry I guess I haven't made it clear, I only wanted to know if anyone here has heard of this teaching, I dont' see where these comments need to be defended, if so I would have asked in the thread.
I'm sorry as well. I have no idea what the deleted posts said and was only going off of Nathan's post and your response.

[GerTzedek]

This is point blank not true. The Catholic Church officially repudiated supersessionism in Nostrae Aetete and subsequent documents. The position of the Catholic church is that the covenant status of the Jewish People is irrevocable.

It is irritating, however, that despite this, certain elements of the old supersessionism remain, such as the habit of referring to the church as the New Israel. It has been explained to me that this is no more a slam to Israel than naming New York is to York. I don't buy it. But I think the dominos are still falling. Give it time, and this too will fade.

[visionary]

This is point blank not true. The Catholic Church officially repudiated supersessionism in Nostrae Aetete and subsequent documents. The position of the Catholic church is that the covenant status of the Jewish People is irrevocable.

It is irritating, however, that despite this, certain elements of the old supersessionism remain, such as the habit of referring to the church as the New Israel. It has been explained to me that this is no more a slam to Israel than naming New York is to York. I don't buy it. But I think the dominos are still falling. Give it time, and this too will fade.Not according to what I have read in the Catholic Encyclopedia.... Paul regards Christianity as the heir of God's promises, as the true "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13156a.htm And we all know that the catholics think of themselves the top of the christian pile.

[visionary]

In fact I looked further and there is more... The visible unity of the Church is defined by the fundamental doctrine of the Orthodox Church, that as Christ is the unique Savior of Mankind (Acts 4:12) in the same sense the Church is the one single source of the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments); in other words: the unique Ark of Salvation. Before the final establishment of the Church catholic, the leaders of the Church had to come to grips with what universalism (catholicity) implied as this was a new, yet unknown concept at the time. At the first Council held in Jerusalem (Acts 15), the church was lead by the Holy Spirit that the Church community was open to all who would repent and be baptized, not merely Jews. Of incalculable significance for the universalizing of the Church was the conversion of Saul of Tarsus. The Church, in fact, encompassed the true Israel of God (Gal. 6:16); but with St. Paul the Church went forward to summon men of every race and region to become members of the new world-embracing community, the universal Church of Christ. http://www.theandros.com/sobornost.html

[visionary]

This is point blank not true. The Catholic Church officially repudiated supersessionism in Nostrae Aetete and subsequent documents. The position of the Catholic church is that the covenant status of the Jewish People is irrevocable.

It is irritating, however, that despite this, certain elements of the old supersessionism remain, such as the habit of referring to the church as the New Israel. It has been explained to me that this is no more a slam to Israel than naming New York is to York. I don't buy it. But I think the dominos are still falling. Give it time, and this too will fade.Not according to what I have read in the Catholic Encyclopedia.... Paul regards Christianity as the heir of God's promises, as the true "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13156a.htm And we all know that the catholics think of themselves the top of the christian pile.