Baptism by water is necessary for the remission of sin

[cbk]

Thank you, Jeffderuyter21 (and team) for this opportunity to present our arguments that baptism of water is necessary for salvation to all those who have heard the complete Gospel message that was preached from the time of Christ Jesus’ ascension into glory. In presenting this opening statement, Aggie03 and I will briefly outline what is to follow.

The Definition of Faith.
The Definition of Believing.
The Definition of Grace.
The Definition and clarification of Water Baptism. And,
Concluding Remarks.
Throughout this debate, we will refer to the Holy Bible. And we submit the Holy Bible, from cover to cover, as evidence and resource.

In building our argument, it is first necessary to discuss FAITH as it relates to scripture. Since there are two types of faith (living and dead), we will center our discussion upon LIVING faith and will, from hence forth, simply call the LIVING FAITH ‘faith’ and DEAD FAITH ‘dead faith’. Now Faith (that is LIVING faith) according to the book of Hebrews is defined as follows:Hebrew 11:1-2 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for."

From this, we contend that, in scripture, faith entails a number of elements. Two of these are as follows. First, it entails something what we do not see. And, secondly, due to usage of the word "hope’, it entails something that we desire but have yet to receive.

Furthermore, from the following writings in Hebrews, we contend that the true, necessary, salvational faith entails ACTION, and not just mere thoughts and hopes. We present Hebrews 11:1-39 as evidence. From these passages, it is clear that Biblical faith requires action, as well as a hope for an unseen promise.

Vs. 4 ‘Abel OFFERED’ – an action

Vs. 7 ‘Noah BUILT’ – an action

Vs. 8 ‘Abraham OBEYED’ – an action

Vs. 17 ‘Abraham OFFERED’ – an action

Vs. 20 ‘Isaac BLESSED’ -- an action

Vs. 30 ‘People MARCHED’ – an action

In conclusion, in regards to scriptural ‘faith’ as it relates to the CHRISTIAN BELIEVER, we contend that faith not only entails 1) the belief that Christ died for our sins, but IT ALSO entails 2) the BELIEF and the HOPE that we will be united with Christ in the resurrection. It is this second element where many Christians, today, fall short in their understanding of the complete Gospel message WHICH INCLUDES baptism by water.
Secondly, we will be using the element of ‘believing’ in our argument that baptism of water is necessary for salvation to those who hear the complete Gospel message. Other variations of ‘believing’ will include, but are not limited to, ‘belief’, ‘believer’, and ‘believe’.In regards to the salvation of the early Christians, it is our claim that BELEIVERS, as expressed in scripture, are not merely those who accept Christ’s sacrifice as true and real, but are those who accept Christ’s sacrifice as true and real AND walk in obedience to Christ’s command to be baptized by water. As support for this claim of obedience, we will present the Book of James. In James 2:20-24 it is said:

"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he DID when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he DID. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed (displayed both faith and obedience in action) God, and it was credited to him as righteousness’, and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what HE DOES and not by faith (belief) ALONE."
From this text, we present that a true believer must have more than thoughts and desires. He must combine belief with obedient action in order to be justified in the eyes of God. Belief that lacks action is dead faith, which is of no use.
Next, we will simply define grace as the God’s divine love and protection that is bestowed freely on people. Now, we will assume that there is little argument between the camps as to what grace is, but we will assume that we will disagree on the means by which that grace is bestowed upon the world of unjustified sinners.It is therefore our contention that God has demonstrated his grace in a number of ways. The following are but a few. 1) God created a plan to save the world from his wrath. 2) In accordance to this plan, God sent his Son, as a gift, to earth to die for our sins. And 3) in accordance to his plan of Salvation, God established water baptism, as a gift, in order to join mankind to his son and separate man from his ‘marriage’ to sin and death.
Next, with our earlier points in mind, we will explain the necessity of a water baptism as it relates to God’s plan of Salvation.
Simply put, water baptism is, to those who have heard the COMPLETE Gospel message, a gift from God. And, those who desire to accept this gift of God, must accept it, not by mere thought or desire, but by literally going into the water. The following points will help serve to explain.

a. Baptism of Water is a GIFT from Heaven. Many will deny that this is a GIFT from Heaven and attempt to label baptism as a work or gesture. Such thought is wrong. In fact, Christ Jesus, himself, instituted water baptism and made it a requirement.

Mark 16:15-16 "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and IS BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Therefore, since Christ Jesus instituted the practice and commands this of us, it is not considered a man-made work, but a Heavenly gift.


b. Baptism of water is faith IN action. For the conservation of space, we will not post Romans, Chapter 6 in its full context. However, we do present it as evidence for water baptism being faith in action or request that it be read at this time.In Chapter 6, we see no evidence to support the contention that water baptism is merely symbolic, nor a work, nor optional. In fact, we see that it is of greater importance than many Christians, today, claim.



Romans 6:3-4 "Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were THEREFORE buried WITH him THROUGH baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we TO may live a new life."

From Romans, we see that the action of receiving the GIFT of water baptism is a step of faith for those who have the hope of being resurrected with Christ at some time in the future.



c. Baptism is a covenant between God and man; not just symbolic. In accordance to the complete Gospel message, it is our contention that water baptism forms a covenant between God and man THROUGH Christ Jesus. It is through the receiving of this gift that we break our bonds under the law of sin and death to be united with Christ, by God’s Will, to live new lives. We present the following scripture for support in this claim.

I Corinthians 6:14-17 "By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also (those who are water baptized). Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, ‘The two will become one flesh.’ But he who unites (through baptism of water) himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit."

I Corinthians 6:11b "But you were WASHED, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 "He (God) anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

In the following, you will see that this covenant with God is sometimes expressed as the ‘new’ circumcision, not to be confused with the useless circumcision of the male under the Old Law. Because water baptism is referred to as a ‘circumcision’, we thus have more evidence of it being a covenant between God and man.

Colossians 2:11-12 "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, NOT with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done BY Christ, HAVING BEEN BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM and raised with him through your faith in the POWER of GOD, who raised him from the dead."

Philippians 3:3 "FOR it is WE who ARE the circumcision,…."

d. Baptism is commanded of us. And finally, after displaying that water baptism is a gift of grace from God that forms a covenant (through the new circumcision) between God and man, through Christ Jesus, that, by faith, we accept and thus live in the assurance of being resurrected with Christ, we state the following. According to the COMPLETE Gospel message, water baptism is COMMANDED of all desiring to be with the Lord.
Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"


Acts 2:37-38 "’Brothers, WHAT shall we do?’ Peter replied, ‘Repent AND BE BAPTIZED, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ…’"


V. Therefore, in conclusion, we submit that the baptism of water is one of God’s gifts to man that is a circumcisional covenant between God and man. Water baptism, by God’s grace, puts to death man’s bounds to the sinful world and allows him to walk in newness of life. This is a gift, that through our freewill, we can either accept or reject. To those who hear the COMPLETE Gospel message (which explains water baptism), it is necessary for them to undergo this act in a timely fashion -- to receive, through faith, the promises that God has spoken through the scriptures. We therefore affirm that baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation."

[lands21]

Thank you to cbk and Aggie03 for their opening statements, I wish to make it clear that I have the utmost respect for these individuals and I am appreciative of there strong, yet non offensive, stance on Baptism for salvation. I will strive to keep the standard as high as your team has set it.



The following are my arguments in response to your previous post. I will do my best to uphold the rules we agreed upon in setting up our debate, and will not present any new material. We need to hold each team accountable in this for a proper and fair debate.



Outline of my response:



1) Response on your definition of Faith

2) Response on your definition of Believing

3) Response on your definition of Grace

4) Response on your definition of clarification and of water Baptism

5) Concluding remarks.



1) Response on you definition of Faith:



In the close of the previous chapter Heb. 10, the apostle had incidentally made mention of faith Heb 10:38-39, and said that the just should live by faith. The object of the whole argument in this Epistle was to keep those to whom it was addressed from apostatizing from the Christian religion, and especially from relapsing again into Judaism. They were in the midst of trials, and were evidently suffering some form of persecution, the tendency of which was to expose them to the danger of relapsing. The indispensable means of securing them from apostasy was “faith,” and with a view to show its efficacy in this respect, the apostle goes into an extended account of its nature and effects, occupying this entire chapter. As the persons whom he addressed had been Hebrews, and as the Old Testament contained an account of numerous instances of persons in substantially the same circumstances in which they were, the reference is made to the illustrious examples of the efficacy of faith in the Jewish history. The object is, to show that “faith,” or confidence in the divine promises, has been in all ages the means of perseverance in the true religion, and consequently of salvation. In this chapter Heb. 11, therefore, the apostle first describes or defines the nature of faith Heb 11:1, and then illustrates its efficacy and power by reference to numerous instances; Heb. 11:2-40. In these illustrations he refers to the steady belief which we have that God made the worlds, and then to the examples of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and Rahab in particular, and then to numerous other examples without mentioning their names. The object is to show that there is power in faith to keep the mind and heart in the midst of trials, and that having these examples before them, those whom he addressed should continue to adhere steadfastly to the profession of the true religion.

In conclusion, the objective of this passage is not to show that we need to be baptised, or to define how faith is incomplete without action, it was to prove to these new Christians that Christ is in control, and to trust Him, just as their Jewish Fathers did. Your final comment of “It is this second element where many Christians today, fall short in their understanding of the complete gospel message, which includes baptism by water” is not founded anywhere in this passage.



2) Response on your definition of Believing



For my response here, I would like to focus our attention on James 2:21 amd the words “Justified by works”. That is, in the sense in which James is maintaining that a man professing religion is to be justified by his works. He does not affirm that the ground of acceptance with God is that we keep the law, or are perfect; or that our good works make an atonement for our sins, and that it is on their account that we are pardoned; nor does he deny that it is necessary that a man should believe in order to be saved. In this sense he does not deny that men are justified by faith; and thus he does not contradict the doctrine of the apostle Paul. But he does teach that where there are no good works, or where there is not a holy life, there is no true religion; that that faith which is not productive of good works is of no value; that if a man has that faith only, it would be impossible that he could be regarded as justified, or could be saved and that consequently, in that large sense, a man is justified by his works that is, they are the evidence that he is a justified man, or is regarded and treated as righteous by his Maker. The point on which the apostle has his eye is the nature of saving faith; and his design is to show that a mere faith which would produce no more effect than that of the demons did, could not save.

The evidence to which he appeals in regard to faith, is good works and a holy life; and where that exists it shows that the faith is genuine. The case of Abraham is one directly in point. He showed that he had that kind of faith which was not dead. He gave the most affecting evidence that his faith was of such a kind as to lead him to implicit obedience, and to painful sacrifices. Such an act as that referred to - the act of offering up his son - demonstrated, if anything could, that his faith was genuine, and that his religion was deep and pure. In the sight of heaven and earth it would justify him as a righteous man, or would prove that he was a righteous man. In regard to the strength of his faith, and the nature of his obedience in this sacrifice. That the apostle here cannot refer to the act of justification as the term is commonly understood, referring by that to the moment when he was accepted of God as a righteous man, is clear from the fact that in a passage of the Scriptures which he himself quotes, that is declared to be consequent on his believing: “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness.”

The act here referred to occurred long subsequent to that, and was thus a fulfillment or confirmation of the declaration of Scripture, which says that “he believed God.” It showed that his faith was not merely speculative, but was an active principle, leading to holy living. This demonstrates that what the apostle refers to here is the evidence by which it is shown that a man’s faith is genuine, and that he does not refer to the question whether the act of justification, where a sinner is converted, is solely in consequence of believing. Thus the case proves what James purposes to prove, that the faith which justifies is only that which leads to good works.



3) Response on your definition of Grace



I agree with your simple definition of grace, and I agree with your first 2 examples of how grace has been given to us, however it is the 3rd point we are here to discuss, but I will address that in the next seciton.



4) Response on your definition and clarification of water baptism



I will do my utmost to keep this response short and to the point, and I would like to do so with a few questions as I am not able to bring in new supporting texts until later in the debate.

1) Colosians 2:11-12: “..but with the cirumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead”

- Since we were not physically buried with Jesus in the tomb, in the literal sense, could baptism here also not be literal?

2) “and raised with Him through your faith” shows that it is faith that will bring us with Christ, not baptism.

3) If I am on my death bed, and I give my life to the Lord, but I die before I am water baptised am I saved?

4) Are children who are not baptised saved if they die young?



5) Concluding remarks:

Though I do not believe I have made a strong case for my side of the debate as of yet, therefore, I do not feel comfortable ending with “We therefore deny that baptism for the remission of sins is not necessary for our salvation”. However, I would like to end by saying, I have presented enough evedince to put question in the argument first presented by cbk and Aggie03.



I look forward to your next affirmative response.

[cbk]

1st Affirmative.

Jeffderuyter21…. Aggie03 and I are very appreciative of your response to our opening post. It is our desire that this debate continue in the manner in which it has started. And, we ask that God’s blessings be upon us all as we tarry on this subject of baptism by water.

Briefly recapping our belief. We contend that those who hear (and understand) the complete Gospel message must be baptized by water for the remission of their sins in accordance to God’s plan. Simply put,

Water baptism is an act of LIVING FAITH.
Water baptism is necessary for an individual to be considered a true ‘BELIEVER’ .
Water baptism is given to us, by God’s GRACE, as a means for us to form a covenant relationship with Him THROUGH Christ Jesus.
Water baptism is commanded of us.
1. In regards to LIVING in true Christian FAITH, we express and reaffirm that action is required. For, without action, such a faith is dead and useless. But, not only is mere action required, but this action must be activity that is in adherence to the scriptures. We will quote the following source.

James 2:17 "In the same way, faith BY ITSELF, if it is not accompanied by ACTION, is DEAD."

Therefore, from this, we contend that one element of water baptism is the fact that it is LIVING faith. And this faith is the hope of being reunited with Christ in the resurrection by entering into a covenant relationship with God through Christ Jesus’ sacrifice. This covenant relationship (between God and man through Christ Jesus) takes place with Water Baptism, and is expressed in Romans 6.

Obedient Action = Living Faith
Water baptism = Obedient Action = Living Faith

2. Secondly, in regards to being a true, complete CHRISTIAN BELIEVER, we express and reaffirm that the true believer is one who holds on to an active faith that is in adherence to the written Word. This type of action includes OBEDIENCE. In regards to this, we will quote the following source.

James 1:22 "Do not MERELY listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. DO what IT SAYS."

From this, we contend that another element of water baptism is the fact that true believers of the complete Gospel message will do what the written word decrees. Since Christ Jesus and the apostles commanded water baptism to those who heard the complete Gospel message, who are we to NOT respond in obedience?

True Believer = Obedient Action
Water Baptism = Obedient Action

3. Thirdly, in regards to God’s grace, we express and reaffirm that God’s grace is given to us (who deserve nothing good) in a number of ways. One of these comes in the form of a covenant relationship to Him via the gift of water baptism. Others gifts include, the gift of Christ Jesus, the Word, Christ Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins, the Holy Spirit, and the possibility and opportunity to receive the forgiveness of sins. In fact, another gift of God’s grace is the TIME that he gives each of us to walk upon the face of the earth.

What is water baptism to those who hear and understand the complete Gospel message? Is it a work? No, it is the faithful acceptance of one of God’s gifts of grace that enables us to enter into a covenant relationship with God, through the blood of Christ Jesus, who the Father sent as a sacrifice for the sins of the entire world. A covenant relationship, a gift of Grace, that grants remission of sins to those who repent of their sins and desire to follow Christ Jesus. It is faithful in the aspect that we are actively, and obediently, living in the hopes of being united with Christ in the resurrection (as defined in Romans 6).

God’s Grace = Undeserved gifts to man

Water Baptism = Undeserved GIFT to man

Water baptism = Gift of God’s grace

4. In regards to water baptism, we will note, there are no examples in the Bible where individuals wait extended periods of time between confession and being baptized by water. Yet, this is common practice today. We submit, therefore, that this is due to the fact that Christians, today, have watered-down the true, complete Gospel message. That they deny that water baptism is a gift of God’s grace to man by defining it as a symbolic work, and they, therefore, do not believe that water baptism is necessary and feel no compulsion of haste.

However, the passages in scripture showing that water baptism is necessary are numerous, but we will present this one, alone.



Acts 2:37-39 "When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart (inward sign of belief) and said to Peter and the other apostles, ‘Brothers, what shall we do?’ Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, EVERY ONE of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.’ "


-----------------------------------------
Now, as a special point of interest, we would like to go back to your opening statement. In your opening, you made mention that the writer of Hebrew implied that ‘the just SHOULD live by faith. We, on the other hand, contend that the writer of Hebrews implies that ‘the just WILL live by faith’ and that if they do not live by faith, they will be destroyed. We submit the following.

Hebrews 10:38-39 " ‘But the righteous WILL live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.’ But we are not of those who shrink back AND ARE DESTROYED, but of those who believe and are saved."

Furthermore, you mention that the examples of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and Rahab were written for the Christian readers to keep their minds and hearts in the midst of trials. We will have to disagree with this statement by stating the following. The examples in Hebrews were written to show that ALL who live by faith have actively displayed action (and/or obedience in action), AS WELL AS keeping their minds and hearts, regardless of the presence of trials. In other words, the existences of trials are irrelevant to those who read. All that is important is the fact that those who live by faith WILL DO actions. Sometimes individuals will do actions that ARE NOT required of them. And sometimes individuals will do actions that ARE required of them. But, in the end, actions must be performed for faith to be living.

We present the following examples as support.

Hebrews 11:4 "By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did"

In this example, we see NO trials that were upon Abel; nor was a requirement made. We do, however, see that Abel was performing an ACTION. Abel was free to do as he pleased. No trials and no command; but still we see ACTION. And this was defined as faith. Also,

Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going."

In this example, we see, once again, NO trials that were upon Abraham. We do, however, see that Abraham was performing an action in the absence of trial and that this action was in obedience to God’s direct command to him. No trials, yet a command was given; and ACTION was performed. This, too, was defined as faith.

Therefore, in order for living faith to exist, one must perform action. This action can be in adherence to a command, or this action can be performed without a Heavenly command. So, which is water baptism? Is it a faithful action in ADHERENCE TO a command – as was Abraham’s? Or, is it action WITHOUT a heavenly command – as was the example of Abel?

We contend that undergoing a water baptism is, in many ways, much the same as the example of Abraham. A command is given. An obedient response of action is required. If an obedient response is not given, then, we contend, there is no living faith. Consider this. What, pray tell, would have been said of Abraham if he DID NOT physically relocate as God had commanded? Would faith have existed? Would the example have been written in Hebrews? We do not believe so.

And, furthermore, what would have been said of Noah if he did not physically build the ark as God commanded? Or, if Abraham did not procreate with Sarah in response to God’s promise of her having a child? In these, actions were required for living faith to exist. Trial was not necessary.

And, these examples of Abel and Abraham show that Faith without action is meaningless and dead.

Furthermore, the above examples, in regards to the faithful, obedient acceptance of water baptism, bring to mind an example that we would like to present.

A couple years ago, I (cbk) received a $500 check from my parents. It was a Christmas gift. I did nothing to earn this gift. It was simply given to me because my parents loved me. It was given to me through their good graces.

So, there it was – a nice check for $500 that I did not work for, nor did I deserve. Was this a gift? Yes, for it was not forced upon me, I did not earn it, and I had the freedom to reject it by tearing it up and throwing it away.

Now, was this check, this gift of value? Well, honestly, at the moment in time when it was FIRST made available to me, it was of NO value. It felt great to have, mind you, but it was of NO value at that moment in time. It did, however, have the potential to be of value IF I accepted this gift in accordance to prescribed written procedures. Did I not have to physically and actively place my signature on this gift for its value to be credited to me? Did I not have to physically and actively present this check to the bank for its value to be credited to me? Yes, I did -- I had to actually do something physical and active.

With this said, I will ask the following. Now that I have signed the check and presented it to the bank, can I now stand up and claim that I have EARNED the $500 and that this check was NOT a gift? Of course not, and likewise, with the accepting of God’s gift of remission from sin (through baptism by water), we contend that we are NOT earning anything. We are merely taking the necessary steps that are required for the gift of grace to be of value.

Now, IF Christ’s command would not have included being baptized by water; and IF the apostles did not preach it as part of the Gospel message; and IF the apostles did not specifically command that water baptism be performed; and if Romans 6 had never been written, then we MIGHT consider that the gift of salvation does not include water baptism. But, with the mounting evidence that faith requires action to be living, and that believers MUST be obedient in action, and that water baptism is commanded and defined in ways well beyond being symbolic, we can not waive the necessity of water baptism for those who have heard the complete Gospel message.

Lastly, we will attempt to answer the questions you have given.

Your question: ‘Since we were not PHYSICALLY buried with Jesus in the tomb, in the literal sense, could baptism here also not be literal?’ Our answer: Jesus being buried in the tomb was a literal and physical event. Likewise, God has made it his plan for us to apply ourselves to Christ’s death and burial through the literal and physical event of water baptism. We are thankful that we were not commanded to seal ourselves in a tomb for three days, as Christ was, or we would be debating something else, altogether.
Your statement: ‘and raised with Him through your faith’ shows that it is FAITH that will bring us with Christ, not baptism. Our statement: Faith, in this matter, is not just a mere wish or hope, it is an obedient action in response to a command. The command has always been to repent of your sins and physically apply Christ’s death to our lives through water baptism. Faith is made manifest by doing the action.
Your question: ‘If I am on my death bed, and I give my life to the Lord, but I die before I am water baptized, am I saved?’ Our statement: In the context of scripture, it can be implied that such an individual will be saved, but Christ Jesus is the ultimate judge on such a matter. We have stated before that the amount of TIME that an individual is given is, in itself, a GIFT of God’s grace to man. Therefore, how a man will be judged -- for his investment of this time -- is entirely up to God.

There are NO examples of eternal salvation being given to those who perish (in the manner which you have stated) during the existence of Christ’s water baptism, however, we will mention that there are also no examples against it either. Therefore, we do not fully know how God will judge each man in regards to how the man invested the ‘talents’ (time) that God has given them. We will, however, mention that the man who fails to make any investment is punished to the highest degree, and leave it at that. To those who are given more, more is expected.
Your question: ‘Are children who are not baptized saved if they die young?’ Our answer: Yes, of course. Scripture clearly implies that 1)children have angels who watch over them and 2)man usually leads them astray as they grow older. Therefore, it is clear that children, who have no understanding of sin, will have no understanding of the complete Gospel message which convicts our hearts to escape the chains of sin through being united with Christ, in his death.

We further state that IF it were required of children to be purified by water, that God will not hold a child responsible for the sins of his/her parent’s. God is merciful is many ways. He is also just and will weigh each of us accordingly. Age will be considered; understanding; and time.

Therefore, with that said, the answers to the following questions are central to our position:

Is baptism of water of Heaven or of man?
Is undergoing baptism of water a work or is it the acceptance of God’s gift of grace?
Is baptism of water a covenant with God through Christ’s sacrifice?
Was baptism of water preached as part of the complete Gospel message in the early church?
Baptism of water is of Heaven. Baptism of water is the acceptance of one of God’s gifts of grace. Baptism of water forms a covenant with God, through Christ Jesus, as explained in Romans 6. And, baptism of water was preached as being a necessity (not optional) to believers in the complete Gospel message.

We believe that nothing presented, thus far, can deny these truths.

God Bless.

[lands21]

The following are my arguments in response to your previous post. Again, I will do my best to uphold the rules we agreed upon in setting up our debate, and will not present any new material. We need to hold each team accountable in this for a proper and fair debate.



I apologoze for how long it has taken me to respond. I have been away on business, and I will try not to have this happen again, I appreciate your patience.



Outline of my response:



Response to Point 1

Response to Point 2

Response to Point 3

Response to Point 4

Conclusion



Response to point 1:



I see no reason to argue this point. Yes, being baptised is commanded by God, and is something we should do out of obiendence to Him. Yes, faith without action is dead, because action is the result of the equation:



Believing + Faith = Works/Action



It is a natural consequence of becoming a Christian. However, I question your equation of:



Obedient Action = Living Faith
Water baptism = Obedient Action = Living Faith



Obedient action is not living faith, it is proof of a living faith. If faith is action, then we are saved by action something I know you do not believe.



Response to point 2:



“who are we to NOT respond in obedience?” I agree my friends, however, we are not saved by obedience. The point we are trying to argue is not should we obey God, but on what terms are we saved? If we are saved by obedience then we are all in sever trouble for many have lied, many have stolen, many have not been baptised by water. Will all these people go to hell? Even is they have accepted Jesus as there Lord and Savoir and their only way to heaven?



True Believer = Obedient Action
Water Baptism = Obedient Action



Yes a believer is called to obedient action in all areas of their life, not just water baptism. Water baptism is not equal to obedient action; it is a part of it. Again, we are not arguing this, we are arguing what is necessary for salvation. I am under the belief the action is not required for salvation, or else we would all be in trouble.



Response to point 3:



“(water baptism) grants remission of sins to those who repent of their sins and desire to follow ChristJesus.” Jesus did this already, when he did on the cross all our sins were forgiven, before we were baptized. If you truly believe this, then all people who die without baptism will be sent to hell, even those who give their life to Christ and do not have time to be baptized. By this statement, it needs to be one or the other.





Response to point 4:



My question remains, are these people sent to hell?



Concluding remarks:



“We contend that undergoing a water baptism is, in many ways, much the same as the example of Abraham. A command is given. An obedient response of action is required. If an obedient response is not given, then, we contend, there is no living faith.” Again, we come back to this point of an action is needed for our salvation, or, so to speek, WE are rseponsible for our salvation. This is what we are arguing, not that baptism is an act of obedience to God, or a sign of our salvation/faith.



“In the context of scripture, it can be implied that such an individual will be saved, but Christ Jesus is the ultimate judge on such a matter. We have stated before that the amount of TIME that an individual is given is, in itself, a GIFT of God’s grace to man. Therefore, how a man will be judged -- for his investment of this time -- is entirely up to God.” So, by this statement you are saying that it is required for some, but not for all. Does this not contradict your entire argument?



“Baptism of water is the acceptance of one of God’s gifts of grace.”So then, to be saved is up to us? Not up to God? It requires an action on our part?



Water baptism is not required for salvation. I see no were in scripture were God would leave it up to us to determine if we are saved or not. I also believe that if you think it is required, you must also apply that to children and adults who die before they are baptized. You can not have both.



Therefore I determine that water baptism is not required for salvation.

[aggie03]

I look forward to our being able to continue on in this discussion with the very same manner it has been conducted in thus far: with courtesy, kindness and patience. While many are often quick in citing the first half of 1 Peter 3:15, the latter is forgotten, in that we ought to do so with meekness and fear. I believe that this discussion thus far has been a shining example of that proper attitude.As we continue with this discussion, it my prayer for everyone that we strive in all things to let God be proven true even though we may find ourselves to be false (Romans 3:4). I believe that if we come to the Scriptures with an honest and open heart, if we put away our preconceived notions and ideas, if we truly let the word of God speak for itself and we do the listening, then I believe that through prayer and study it is possible for us all to come to a better understanding of the Truth, to a unity in thought and faith as the Scriptures call us to have. I would ask, then, that all who read and participate in this debate pray that this might be what happens, and that at the very least, while no one's current beliefs or understandings may be immediately effected, that we all gain a greater appreciation and understanding for the power and the truth of God's word.There is a point that I wish to make which I regard as being crucial to our reaching a common understanding.

Psalms 119:160 ASV

The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

The SUM of God's word is Truth. I understand this to mean that we must consider the meaning of each verse within the context of the rest of the Scriptures in order to truly understand and be a follower of the Truth. We cannot hope to glean from only a portion of God's word the complete message, the Truth, that He intended for us to gain from its entirety. The idea, I suppose, may be summed up in saying that we cannot pit one verse against another and try to prove contrary points. Every verse must be understood within the context of the whole if we are to really seek the Truth rather than seeking to justify what we believe. I would, therefore, ask that as much and as often as possible that we refrain from doing this. I believe that our discussion will be all the more fruitful if rather than combating each other with verses, we fight Satan with the greatest weapon we have been given, the Scriptures, and work together toward an understanding of what they teach.If this means that I have erred in my understanding, I am more than willing to change in order to conform my life and beliefs to the Truth. I would pray that all who participate and read are willing to both aid me in my search for better understanding, and to do the same themselves as well.

I see no reason to argue this point. Yes, being baptised is commanded by God, and is something we should do out of obiendence to Him.

I am glad that you recognize that baptism is something that has been commanded. However, I believe it is necessary to also look at the reasons why the Scriptures tell us that it has been commanded. The Lord's Supper has been commanded with a very specific purpose: it is how we are to remember the death of Christ. Therefore, that is the reason that we ought to do it. While its having been commanded is reason enough to demand our compliance, we must also take into account the reasons given to us in the command for its observance. If we merely go through the motions, then we are not fulfilling the command to commemorate the death of Christ upon the cross. The same then would be true with anything that has been commanded of us. If we do not do something for the reason that God has given us for doing it, then we are not fulfilling the command. If this is true, then not only the fact that baptism has been commanded becomes important, but the reason we are told to do it also becomes of importance. I have said all of that in order to make this point: we are never told in the Scriptures that we ought to be baptized merely so that we are obedient to a command, but rather there is a specific purpose for which one ought to be baptized.

Acts 2:38 ASV

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 ASV

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on his name.

In these passages we can see that we are to be baptized unto the remission of our sins, not merely to be obedient. If we keep in mind the principle that we have established earlier, that we must do something for the reason that God has ordained it, then in order for us to be baptized as the Lord would have, we must be baptized for the remission of our sins, not simply to be obedient (though make no mistake, obedience is defintely important )

Obedient action is not living faith, it is proof of a living faith. If faith is action, then we are saved by action something I know you do not believeAnyone who has become a child of God has been saved by grace. Not by their belief, not by their baptism, not by repentance, not by anything that you could think of...we are saved by GRACE. Now comes the point where we must keep in mind the principle that only the SUM of God's word is Truth. We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Well the immediate question that I have is what kind of faith? In the book of James we can understand that there are only two types of faith: that which is dead and that which is not. Which faith do suppose that Ephesians 2:8 is talking about? I believe it's talking about the faith that acts, the faith that works. This is what we are saved through NOT by. If we do not have this faith that James talks about, then we cannot be saved by grace.

Response to point 2:If we are saved by obedience then we are all in sever trouble for many have lied, many have stolen, many have not been baptised by water. Will all these people go to hell? Even is they have accepted Jesus as there Lord and Savoir and their only way to heaven?

We are told in the Scriptures that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. This means to me that not everyone will receive mercy, because while God is fully capable of bestowing that mercy to all people, we must understand that God is also just.

Matthew 7:21 ASV

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

It is my understanding that God will have mercy on those who do His will. Part of this will is that we be baptized for the remission of our sins. I believe that it is at the point of baptism that one becomes a child of God, that one is born again (John 3:5). After one has become a child of God, God asks that we live faithfully, not necessarily perfectly, but faithfully. Does this mean that there will be those who believe that they are saved and are not? Well, I think that if we said "no" we would be arguing with what Matthew 7:21 seems to clearly teach.

I am under the belief the action is not required for salvation, or else we would all be in trouble.

So do you think that Jesus wasn't being serious when He said that unless we repent that we shall likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5)? Repentance IS an ACTION, is it not?

Response to point 3:Jesus did this already, when he did on the cross all our sins were forgiven, before we were baptized.Could you please post some Scriptures in your next reply that state specifically that our sins are forgiven before we are baptized? If this is true, then why would God tell us that we are to be baptized for the remission of our sins? If this is true, then isn’t everyone in the world saved by Christ’s sacrifice?

My question remains, are these people sent to hell?You're asking me to do something that I am incapable of doing. I am not, nor have I ever been, so arrogant as to assume the place of God in passing judgment on the eternal salvation of an individual. It is not my place to determine who is and who isn't going to hell. So I will not do so.However, it is my place to preach, to teach and to believe what the Scriptures teach. If they teach that it is necessary to be baptized in order to be saved, then that is what I will believe, preach and teach. I could ask you the same question about someone who didn't repent yet believed. Christ has said that if one doesn't repent they will perish. Do you think that someone, then, who doesn't repent - even though they believe - will be in heaven? Please understand that I don't expect you to want, or to be able, to answer that question. All that we can do is read what the Scriptures say. After we've done that, we need to leave the judgment up to God.I would like to add, however, that if you ever believe that the Scriptures are telling you that you may be in danger of hell, that you do something personally to correct it. We cannot base the Truth off of the situations that we find other people in. There are many "good" people who have died who may not wind up in heaven. Does this mean that we should change what we think the Bible says in order to fool ourselves into believing that they will be there? No, of course not. Salvation is not dependent on what we think, but on what God has said. So, we should strive in all things to be conformed to what God has said.

Concluding remarks: Again, we come back to this point of an action is needed for our salvation, or, so to speek, WE are rseponsible for our salvation. This is what we are arguing, not that baptism is an act of obedience to God, or a sign of our salvation/faith.

You have actually chosen to close you post on the very point that I had picked to forward in my own .

Luke 17:7-10 ASV

But who is there of you, having a servant plowing or keeping sheep, that will say unto him, when he is come in from the field, Come straightway and sit down to meat; (8) and will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? (9) Doth he thank the servant because he did the things that were commanded?(10) Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

How does this passage apply to the things that God has told us to do? Well, let's look at Revelation 2:10 for instance. In that verse we are told that we ought to live faithfully until death in order to receive a crown of life. It would be possible to conclude then that by living one's life faithfully they had earned that crown. When we consider this passage from Luke 17, however, it becomes clear that they haven't earned anything, but rather are nothing more than unprofitable servants who have done only what was commanded of them.

The same is true with baptism. Because we are baptized, we have not somehow earned our salvation - we are merely doing what God has said is necessary for the reasons that God has given us. This makes us nothing more than unprofitable servants who are saved only by the grace of their Master.

It is for these reasons as stated in the Scriptures that I believe baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for us to be saved.

[Crispie]

Acts 10:44-46 "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.


Here it clearly shows that people recieved the Holy Spirit, believed, and were even using Gifts of the Holy Spirit before Peter commanded them to be baptized. Can you explain how they were saved even before they were baptized?

[aggie03]

This is a formal debate, so those who are not members are not allowed to post. :)

[buck]

Baptism

A baptism is an IMMERSION. A person who has been baptized is a person who has been immersed in something, because that's what the word means.

Many have the idea that all baptisms are WATER baptisms, but this isn't true. In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist speaks of THREE different baptisms in one verse. He mentions WATER baptism, HOLY GHOST baptism, and FIRE baptism. One gets you wet, one gets you into the body of Christ, and one gets you into Hell! There's more than one kind of baptism, so we need to avoid using the word too loosely.
A person is baptized by the Holy Ghost the very moment they receive Christ as Lord and Savior (I Cor. 12:13). This particular baptism is a SPIRITUAL baptism, and it should never be confused with WATER baptism (although it usually is). This spiritual baptism can be found in I Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:5, Romans 6:3-4, and Galatians 3:27. It is not a water baptism, for water baptism places no one into the body of Christ. A person is saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Paul said that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel in I Corinthians 1:17, and "the gospel" does NOT include water baptism (I Cor. 15:1-4). Does this mean that water baptism isn't important? No, it does not. Water baptism is very important, for it pictures the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Christ. I Peter 3:21 tells us that it is a "figure." Obedient Christians will submit to water baptism, but they should never confuse it with their salvation. Remember, the repentant thief was saved WITHOUT being baptized in water (Luk. 23:42-43), and the eunuch of Acts chapter eight wasn't permitted to be baptized until he first BELIEVED on Christ (Acts 8:37-38).

[Hagios17]

Discernment between that which is spiritual and fleshly...unspiritual. Communion, Baptism... etc. Those are not spiritual. THose things are carnal. Getting dipped into the river is not literally getting dipted in the blood or spirit. That river is not God's essence. These things are symbolic. God's spirit is like water. It's a fleshly example to testify of spiritual. Communion. Wine and bread is no literally the blood and body of Jesus... that canabalism, not to mention disgusting. In fact it is... Spiritual. Partakers of the body and blood (fleshly) testifies of those who are partakers of the unleven bread-- sound doctrine.

And temple... some believe that the physical temple is the house of God. God's temple is an house that isn't built by human hands. All our temples are are images and testimonies of the spiritual temple. We don't join the temple to join God, or get dipped into a river to get saved, or to receive the spirit or eat bread and liquid to get saved. If eating food got you saved, then evryone would be in heaven, cause your average joe is a drinker of the wine.

But I'm not exclusively directing this at Rome. These things are widely practiced in my church and many many others. Churches always have this tendency to adopt carnal traditions that have long ended.

[hiumble1]

sorry did not read through the whole of your argument (why: because you take verse and surround an argument to it)

So, what you are saying is by me being immersed in Water my sins are washed away and I can stand in righteousness before God?
If that be true, than every day (in the morning and at night in some cases) every man woman and child that bathes is sinless.
If you wash an old wine skin and put new wine within it, will it burst?

[LivingWordUnity]

I agree with what the Bible says about Baptism...

1) One Lord, one faith, one baptism
Eph. 4:5

2) Baptism washes away our sins, regenerates us, and renews us in the Holy Spirit
Acts 2:37-39, Acts 22:16 and Titus 3:5

3) Baptism is necessary for our salvation
Mark 16:16, John 3:5

4) Baptism is done with water
John 3:23, Acts 8:36, 1 Peter 3:20-21, and Ezek 36:25-27

5) Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize everyone who wanted to follow him
John 4:1

6) Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
Matt. 28:19, John 4:1-2

7) Baptism is done to everyone in the household without exception
Acts 2:39 and Acts 16:15,33

8) Baptism has taken the place of circumcision
Col. 2:11–12

9) And circumcision was normally done to infants to bring them into God's covenant based on the faith of their parents and on a promise made by their parents to raise their child in the faith
Genesis 17:12

10) But Baptism is universally for males and females
Acts 8:12-13, Galatians 3:27-28

11) Infants/children are the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, and God reveals Himself to them in ways adults can’t understand.

“At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, ‘Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?’ He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.’” (Matt. 18:1-3)

“People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. Jesus, however, called the children to himself and said, 'Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it.'” (Luke 18:15-17)

“because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes” (Matt. 11:25)

[aggie03]

I agree with what the Bible says about Baptism...


Baptism washes away our sins, regenerates us, and renews us in the Holy Spirit
Acts 22:16 and Titus 3:5

Baptism is done with water
Acts 8:36 and Ezek 36:25-27

Baptism is done to everyone in the household without exception
Acts 16:15,33 and Acts 2:39

Baptism is done in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
Matt. 28:19

Baptism has taken the place of circumcision
Col. 2:11–12

And circumcision was normally done to infants
Genesis 17:12

But Baptism is universally for males and females
Galatians 3:27-28


Infants/children are the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven God reveals Himself to them in ways adults can’t understand.
Matt. 18:1-3 At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants

Matt. 11:25 because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes

There is an old, old saying that we need to consider with some of the points that you are trying to make: "That which proves too much, proves too little."

I agree with you that baptism is something that must be done in order for one to receive remission from their sins. The Bible is very clear about that :) However, I do take issue with what you have said about infants and households.

You stated that every member of a household was baptized without exception. So what about someone in a household who refused to believe? Would they be baptized anyway? Do you believe that baptism would be effective?

Can you show me a place in the Bible where it explicitly states that a baby is baptized?

I look forward to talking with you, and I hope that we have a very fruitful study together. May God bless us both as we seek to learn more about Him through the word that He has given to us. Amen! :prayer:

[Jerrell]

I will make it very Simple. The Forgiveness of our sins, and thus salvation comes simply by faith. And upon beleiveing we are baptized with water and by the Spirit. It is the indwelling of the Holy Ghost which saves us, he is the power by which we are saved. So does Baptism save us? Yes, if you're talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, no if you're talking about water.

[Jerrell]

---delete---

[Jerrell]

---delete---

[Jerrell]

When the Bible refers to babes it is not always refering to literal babes. It refers many times to babes (spiritually) in Christ.

THe Baptism od Babies is never taught in the Bible. But can a youth be baptized? of course. But only after he or she realises and accepts who Jesus is and what he did.

[LivingWordUnity]

Can you show me a place in the Bible where it explicitly states that a baby is baptized?Can you show me where it explicitly states in the Bible that people who were born in California can be baptized?

I showed you how it says in the Bible that Baptism takes the place of circumcision and that circumcision was normally done to infants to bring them into God's covenant.

Why do you reject what the Bible has to say in favor of a modern, man-made tradition of a prohibition against the baptism of infants?

There is no prohibition against baptizing infants anywhere in the Bible, and there is no "age of reason" requirement for baptism anywhere in the Bible.

The requirement to make a profession of faith at the time of being baptized is only a requirement for adults, but this does not mean that an infant can't be baptized based on the faith of the parents who wish for their child to go to Heaven and who make a promise to raise their child in the faith.

God brought infants into the Old Covenant this way, and He brings infants into the New Covenant this way because baptism takes the place of circumcision (Col. 2:11–12).

How can you say that I provided too much biblical evidence for it to be true? Are you thinking that I might have planted those verses in your bible when you weren't looking? :)

[aggie03]

Can you show me where it explicitly states in the Bible that people who were born in California can be baptized?

Sure, I can! Mark 16.16 says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. In Matthew 28.18-20 the disciples are told to preach the gospel to all nations (meaning all people). Those are explicit commands. Someone from California is covered, though I'm not sure why ;).

However, I find no place where a baby can do any of the things that are mentioned concerning baptism. If you can find a place where someone can be baptized without believing, that would work. However, as far as I know, there are no places like that in the New Testament.

I showed you how it says in the Bible that Baptism takes the place of circumcision and that circumcision was normally done to infants to bring them into God's covenant.

You err on this principle - it is a circumcision of the heart. Can you tell me how an infant has their heart circumcised? This is not a physical thing - the person being baptized must believe. Colossians 2.12 says that we are raised "through faith". How can an infant have faith? If they can't have faith, then they can't be raised through that faith. It's quite simple.

Why do you reject what the Bible has to say in favor of a modern, man-made tradition of a prohibition against the baptism of infants?

Actually, what I am talking about is roughly 2,000 years old. It wasn't until some time after the times of the New Testament when children were baptized. What you are teaching is a tradition of men, though it's not that modern either :).

There is no prohibition against baptizing infants anywhere in the Bible, and there is no "age of reason" requirement for baptism anywhere in the Bible.

There doesn't have to be a direct prohibition against infants because there is no authority for it. Look through all of the examples of people who are baptized in the New Testament. All of them are people who believe. All of them are "men and women". We are also told that baptism is something that required faith to work correctly. How can an infant be grouped with those who are capable of faith. They cannot.

Can I baptize someone who does not believe in God and hope that baptism will save them?

The requirement to make a profession of faith at the time of being baptized is only a requirement for adults, but this does not mean that an infant can't be baptized based on the faith of the parents who wish for their child to go to Heaven and who make a promise to raise their child in the faith.

I never said anything about someone having to make "a profession of faith", I have simply said that they must have it. An infant cannot have faith, and therefore cannot be raised up through baptism. It simply cannot take place.

God brought infants into the Old Covenant this way, and He brings infants into the New Covenant this way because baptism takes the place of circumcision (Col. 2:11–12).

I've covered this above already. If you're interested in talking about it further, we may do so. The very verse that you have mentioned prooves that infants may not be baptized. What does that verse say causes one to be raised up?

How can you say that I provided too much biblical evidence for it to be true? Are you thinking that I might have planted those verses in your bible when you weren't looking? :)

You are making the Scriptures say things that they don't. :)

If you're interested in this topic, I would love to start a new discussion with you. If you would like to do that, please let me know.

[aggie03]

I will make it very Simple. The Forgiveness of our sins, and thus salvation comes simply by faith. And upon beleiveing we are baptized with water and by the Spirit. It is the indwelling of the Holy Ghost which saves us, he is the power by which we are saved. So does Baptism save us? Yes, if you're talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, no if you're talking about water.

Hi Jerrel!

Can you tell me how the Bible says that we are clothed with Christ? (Galatians 3.27 is a good place to look)

Can you tell me how we have the sins we've committed before becoming a Christian forgiven? (Acts 2.38 and Acts 22.16 are good places to look)

Are we saved by the grace of God. Yes, absolutely. Ephesians 2.5 makes that very clear. Are we saved by our faith? No, again, Ephesians 2.5 makes that very clear. However, we are saved through our faith. It is our faith that gives us access to the promises of God.

When does our faith give us access to the grace of God? (Colossians 2.12 is a good place to look)

How do we appeal to God for a good conscience? (1 Peter 3.21-22 is a good place to look)

I look forward to hearing back from you, and I hope that God blesses us as we study his word together.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

If Water baptism is necessary. Would not its ommission, also be declared as a Sin, and Unforgivable?

John the baptist Said he who comes after me (Jesus) Would baptise the earth is Blood and Fire.

the Unforgivable sin is " denying the holy spirit" or to be baptised of holy spirit. Unfortunately those who profess the doctrine of Water baptism. Cannot in truth, support their claims with scriptures, Which say " water"! And they Interpret all baptism as Water. And this is False doctrine of men. If Baptism was always water, Gods pure word would say it. And it doesn't.

Lest they have a Water script I have no desire to hear Interpretations of scripture, based in doctrine of men, not scriptures themselves. And almost each and every scripture they give for " Water baptism" has the Holy spirit in script. People are not reborn a new in " Water" they are reborn a new creature in Spirit.

Some followers of false doctrines, are not related to the Church (believers). But are brainwashed to see only what their doctrines of men have taught them. When all true interpretations come from spirit.

I pray my words do not offend people. It is my opinion of actions of some doctrines of men.

God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Jerrell]

Can you show me where it explicitly states in the Bible that people who were born in California can be baptized?

I showed you how it says in the Bible that Baptism takes the place of circumcision and that circumcision was normally done to infants to bring them into God's covenant.

Why do you reject what the Bible has to say in favor of a modern, man-made tradition of a prohibition against the baptism of infants?

There is no prohibition against baptizing infants anywhere in the Bible, and there is no "age of reason" requirement for baptism anywhere in the Bible.

The requirement to make a profession of faith at the time of being baptized is only a requirement for adults, but this does not mean that an infant can't be baptized based on the faith of the parents who wish for their child to go to Heaven and who make a promise to raise their child in the faith.

God brought infants into the Old Covenant this way, and He brings infants into the New Covenant this way because baptism takes the place of circumcision (Col. 2:11–12).

How can you say that I provided too much biblical evidence for it to be true? Are you thinking that I might have planted those verses in your bible when you weren't looking? :)
The NT teaches a Circumcision of the Heart. Not of the Flesh. The law does not justify anybody to be baptized. It is clear from scripture that a person must beleive first to be baptized.

[Jerrell]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

If Water baptism is necessary. Would not its ommission, also be declared as a Sin, and Unforgivable?

John the baptist Said he who comes after me (Jesus) Would baptise the earth is Blood and Fire.

the Unforgivable sin is " denying the holy spirit" or to be baptised of holy spirit. Unfortunately those who profess the doctrine of Water baptism. Cannot in truth, support their claims with scriptures, Which say " water"! And they Interpret all baptism as Water. And this is False doctrine of men. If Baptism was always water, Gods pure word would say it. And it doesn't.

Lest they have a Water script I have no desire to hear Interpretations of scripture, based in doctrine of men, not scriptures themselves. And almost each and every scripture they give for " Water baptism" has the Holy spirit in script. People are not reborn a new in " Water" they are reborn a new creature in Spirit.

Some followers of false doctrines, are not related to the Church (believers). But are brainwashed to see only what their doctrines of men have taught them. When all true interpretations come from spirit.

I pray my words do not offend people. It is my opinion of actions of some doctrines of men.

God bless C.F. and all who use it.

:amen:

[aggie03]

Hi Jerrel!

Can you tell me how the Bible says that we are clothed with Christ? (Galatians 3.27 is a good place to look)

Can you tell me how we have the sins we've committed before becoming a Christian forgiven? (Acts 2.38 and Acts 22.16 are good places to look)

Are we saved by the grace of God. Yes, absolutely. Ephesians 2.5 makes that very clear. Are we saved by our faith? No, again, Ephesians 2.5 makes that very clear. However, we are saved through our faith. It is our faith that gives us access to the promises of God.

When does our faith give us access to the grace of God? (Colossians 2.12 is a good place to look)

How do we appeal to God for a good conscience? (1 Peter 3.21-22 is a good place to look)

I look forward to hearing back from you, and I hope that God blesses us as we study his word together.

Bump :)

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the Name of Jesus: :hug:

Jerrell, I enjoyed your posts, not sure why they were deleted.:thumbsup:

Dear Living word unity: To understand why you follow doctrines of " water" as you do. I read and discerned into the scriptures you Gave. And by my spirit discerning: None said as you claimed, and one script Colossians 2;11 which you claimed script for water baptism in replace of circumcision;. but it says exactly the opposite and shows water baptism is not what saves. Lets quote.

col 2;10-11. 10. " And ye are complete in him, which is head of all principality and power:"( Him and head is Jesus) 11. " In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of christ." The word circumcision is symbolism of being circumcised Of Christ; and this circumcision is "Made without hands" its spiritual. Only spirit things are not of hands or flesh. again a spiritual references. Water baptism; without question is " made with hands" this circumcision made without hands, Can Only be spiritual baptism. And this spiritual baptism Puts off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. And this circumcision of Christ. is not water, but faith based in spiritual things. This circumcision must be " made without hands" meaning Not of flesh.

Wake up water baptism is of flesh. And always made by hands.. And this circumcision is made without hands...And that can only be spiritual circumcision of the heart.

Sorry guys: but its your scripture colossians 2;11. And it proves to me. Water baptism Cant be the circumcision spoke. since water baptism is made by hands. And only spiritual things are non "made by hands." And its a spiritual sure thing, that Water baptism, is a thing of made by hands. :sorry:

I pray my words do not anger or offend. I only interpret the word as specifically as I am able.
God bless C.F. and all who use it.:wave:

[SpiritDriven]

Inspired post there Spiritofprophecy !

I no longer question why so many people walk after the flesh...because I have come to the relisation that God has given them over to that way.

Such long and wastefull posts that came to nothing.
I sometimes wonder how many people really do believe the word of God, because God has made his intentions abundantly known.

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

How simple was that.... yet how many really believe the word of God.....?

The word of God which goes forth from His mouth; It shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing what He desires, and without succeeding in the matter for which He sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

Isaiah did....

The Lord canst do all things, and that no purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

the Righteouse Job did....

Yet many here do not.... I sure am glad that Gods soveriegn will and power will prevail in the end, in regards to 1 Timothy 2:4.


Grace and Peace to you

[aggie03]

Inspired post there Spiritofprophecy !

I no longer question why so many people walk after the flesh...because I have come to the relisation that God has given them over to that way.

Such long and wastefull posts that came to nothing.
I sometimes wonder how many people really do believe the word of God, because God has made his intentions abundantly known.

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

How simple was that.... yet how many really believe the word of God.....?

The word of God which goes forth from His mouth; It shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing what He desires, and without succeeding in the matter for which He sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

Isaiah did....

The Lord canst do all things, and that no purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

the Righteouse Job did....

Yet many here do not.... I sure am glad that Gods soveriegn will and power will prevail in the end, in regards to 1 Timothy 2:4.


Grace and Peace to you

So are you saying that everyone is going to be in heaven? If so, I'd like to start a new thread to talk about that with you :)

[Spiritofprophecy]

Inspired post there Spiritofprophecy !

I no longer question why so many people walk after the flesh...because I have come to the relisation that God has given them over to that way.

Such long and wastefull posts that came to nothing.
I sometimes wonder how many people really do believe the word of God, because God has made his intentions abundantly known.

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

How simple was that.... yet how many really believe the word of God.....?

The word of God which goes forth from His mouth; It shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing what He desires, and without succeeding in the matter for which He sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

Isaiah did....

The Lord canst do all things, and that no purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

the Righteouse Job did....

Yet many here do not.... I sure am glad that Gods soveriegn will and power will prevail in the end, in regards to 1 Timothy 2:4.


Grace and Peace to you
greetings in the Name of Jesus:

Amen and well said.

I praise God for your spirit, and pray he shall keep you safe.

[Schroeder]

well so much for the formal debate. I have tried to debate aggieo3 before but she never got back to it. I will say i found errors from your post from start to finish. every point you bring up about water baptism is based on your opinion you NEVER gave a specific passage or verse. To open with james 2 was terrible. All the neat graphs and this = this= this. doesnt or isnt scripturale. Every time i have goten into a debate with you you end up leaving. Which was likely because your busy so i dont mind. Well at least your set up and grammer and all that sort of stuff was really good.

[Schroeder]

1st Affirmative.

Jeffderuyter21…. Aggie03 and I are very appreciative of your response to our opening post. It is our desire that this debate continue in the manner in which it has started. And, we ask that God’s blessings be upon us all as we tarry on this subject of baptism by water.

Briefly recapping our belief. We contend that those who hear (and understand) the complete Gospel message must be baptized by water for the remission of their sins in accordance to God’s plan. Simply put,

Water baptism is an act of LIVING FAITH. scripture of this please. how do you have an act of living faith in sin, seeing how it takes the SPirit to NOT live in sin. Rom 8:5-10. ANd you say we must be baptized to have our sin forgiven which implies we are living in sin and not living in faith.
Water baptism is necessary for an individual to be considered a true ‘BELIEVER’ . certainly NOT in scripture. actually Christ said they would no his disciples by there LOVE. And NO one knows who is a true believer except God. and he said he knew by their hearts and gave them the SPirit acts 15:8
Water baptism is given to us, by God’s GRACE, as a means for us to form a covenant relationship with Him THROUGH Christ Jesus. no scripture again. The relationship is THROUGH the Spirit, this is what Christ said i will send you one that will be with you and comfort you.

Water baptism is commanded of us. you do not give any scripture reference to any of these. because there isnt any. no it isnt. again there is no place thatt he word WATER is before baptism. scripture never says water baptism.

1. In regards to LIVING in true Christian FAITH, we express and reaffirm that action is required. For, without action, such a faith is dead and useless. But, not only is mere action required, but this action must be activity that is in adherence to the scriptures. We will quote the following source. True but your discussing water for forgiveness of sins.

James 2:17 "In the same way, faith BY ITSELF, if it is not accompanied by ACTION, is DEAD."

Therefore, from this, we contend that one element of water baptism is the fact that it is LIVING faith. And this faith is the hope of being reunited with Christ in the resurrection by entering into a covenant relationship with God through Christ Jesus’ sacrifice. This covenant relationship (between God and man through Christ Jesus) takes place with Water Baptism, and is expressed in Romans 6.
go back to your first point. If its for forgiveness of sins then it cant be a living faith seeing how living in sin is not a faithfull act. read Rom 8:1-10

2. Secondly, in regards to being a true, complete CHRISTIAN BELIEVER, we express and reaffirm that the true believer is one who holds on to an active faith that is in adherence to the written Word. This type of action includes OBEDIENCE. In regards to this, we will quote the following source.

James 1:22 "Do not MERELY listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. DO what IT SAYS."

From this, we contend that another element of water baptism is the fact that true believers of the complete Gospel message will do what the written word decrees. Since Christ Jesus and the apostles commanded water baptism to those who heard the complete Gospel message, who are we to NOT respond in obedience?

True Believer = Obedient Action
Water Baptism = Obedient Action

3. Thirdly, in regards to God’s grace, we express and reaffirm that God’s grace is given to us (who deserve nothing good) in a number of ways. One of these comes in the form of a covenant relationship to Him via the gift of water baptism. Others gifts include, the gift of Christ Jesus, the Word, Christ Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins, the Holy Spirit, and the possibility and opportunity to receive the forgiveness of sins. In fact, another gift of God’s grace is the TIME that he gives each of us to walk upon the face of the earth.

What is water baptism to those who hear and understand the complete Gospel message? Is it a work? No, it is the faithful acceptance of one of God’s gifts of grace that enables us to enter into a covenant relationship with God, through the blood of Christ Jesus, who the Father sent as a sacrifice for the sins of the entire world. A covenant relationship, a gift of Grace, that grants remission of sins to those who repent of their sins and desire to follow Christ Jesus. It is faithful in the aspect that we are actively, and obediently, living in the hopes of being united with Christ in the resurrection (as defined in Romans 6).

God’s Grace = Undeserved gifts to man

Water Baptism = Undeserved GIFT to man

Water baptism = Gift of God’s grace show me were it says the gift GOd gives us is water baptism. I will show you that the Gift is the SPirit. read gal and ephs.


4. In regards to water baptism, we will note, there are no examples in the Bible where individuals wait extended periods of time between confession and being baptized by water. Yet, this is common practice today. We submit, therefore, that this is due to the fact that Christians, today, have watered-down the true, complete Gospel message. That they deny that water baptism is a gift of God’s grace to man by defining it as a symbolic work, and they, therefore, do not believe that water baptism is necessary and feel no compulsion of haste.

However, the passages in scripture showing that water baptism is necessary are numerous, but we will present this one, alone.



Acts 2:37-39 "When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart (inward sign of belief) and said to Peter and the other apostles, ‘Brothers, what shall we do?’ Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, EVERY ONE of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.’ "
numerous thats funny seeing how scripture never says WATER baptism anywhere. and with this stance your have numerouse contradictions in the rest of scripture.

-----------------------------------------

[Schroeder]

Hi Jerrel!

Can you tell me how the Bible says that we are clothed with Christ? (Galatians 3.27 is a good place to look) Through the Spirit. Lets start with the FACT that "water" does not come before the word baptism ANYWHERE in scripture. If we read 1 cor 12:13 which say we are baptized by the SPirit INTO the body, which includes Christ, we see the use of the "there is neither jew nor gentile ect ect." verse 29 speaks of the seed,heir according to the Promise. THIS promise is mentioned in 3:14. " So that by FAITH we might receive the PROMISE of the SPirit. If we look more into what clothes means in other scripture we see Coll. 3:9 "... since you havetaken OFF the old self and have put on the new self ...... but Chirst is all and is in all. " therefore, as Gods chosen people, HOLY and dearly loved, CLOTHE yourselves with compasion, kindness, ect." Read also rom 13:14" rather cloth yourselves with the LORD JESUS..." Now read gal 5:16-25


Can you tell me how we have the sins we've committed before becoming a Christian forgiven? (Acts 2.38 and Acts 22.16 are good places to look)
Again those passages dont deal with it. Christ did the work to deal with our sins and it says it was once for all. rom 5 and heb 10:10-12. " and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of Christ ONCE FOR ALL." you can read the rest of it.
Are we saved by the grace of God. Yes, absolutely. Ephesians 2.5 makes that very clear. Are we saved by our faith? No, again, Ephesians 2.5 makes that very clear. However, we are saved through our faith. It is our faith that gives us access to the promises of God. YOu provide no scripture for your "we are saved trhough our Faith". It is our FAITH or belief in the gospel that is spoken to us. rom 10:8-17. this passage explains it for you. manly verse 8 and 17. And GRACE does not include water baptism. It is NEVER shown this way in scripture.


When does our faith give us access to the grace of God? (Colossians 2.12 is a good place to look)
When we believe. coll. 2:12 says it was the work of CHRIST Christ baptism is what, as said by JTB. through the SPIRIT. Notice it speaks of the sinful nature and the removal of it. This is done only through the SPirit. it is the SPirit that gives us the circumcision. And the SPirit is Christ because he sais the SPirit gives the Spirit. this goes back tot he CLOTHED idea. This is what being saved is all about. getting rid of our sinful nature. Christ paid the price for sin ALREADY So we dont need to deal with that. what do need to deal with is our sinful nature.
How do we appeal to God for a good conscience? (1 Peter 3.21-22 is a good place to look)

I look forward to hearing back from you, and I hope that God blesses us as we study his word together. Heb. 9:14 " How much moren then will the BLOOD of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, CLEANSE our CONSCIENCE from the ACTS that lead to death, so that we may SERVE the living GOD." Which should clear up 1 peter 3:21-22. notice it say BY the ressurestion of Christ. By the way did the water save them or did GOD save them and or did Noah belief in GOd save them. That is what GOd said for us to do in Jn. 6:29 believe in my son. That is what Christ said believe in me for eternal life. What scripture says, the SPirit gives us a new life, we are reborn. compare it with the flood story. The waters fo the flood destroyed the sinful world. what does the Spirit do to us destroys the sinful nature. the SPirit is the water Christ baptism. the living water. you just are getting the context right. Christ did the work needed for our sins. the sin issue was dealt with once for all. the rest is dealing with our sinful nature and what needs done about it. We believe Christ dealt with our sins, he then gives us his SPirit(spirit baptism), which is the circumcision of our hearts, our new birth, and the SPirit lives in us and gives us a renewal. titus 3:5. This passages discribes Christ baptism of the Spirit, the next part, the dealing with our sinful nature part.

[aggie03]

numerous thats funny seeing how scripture never says WATER baptism anywhere. and with this stance your have numerouse contradictions in the rest of scripture.

The text doesn't have to mention water - in fact, it would be more appropriate to demand that where the word "baptism" is used, to denote a baptism other than that in water, an additional word to differentiate is necessary.

For example, when John was in the Jordan baptizing, does say that John was in the Jordan "water baptizing" or does the text just say baptizing?

I am very interested for the time being in what you have to say about John and his "baptizing". :) We can get into the other things you've mentioned afterward.

[Spiritofprophecy]

[SIZE=2]

The text doesn't have to mention water - in fact, it would be more appropriate to demand that where the word "baptism" is used, to denote a baptism other than that in water, an additional word to differentiate is necessary.

For example, when John was in the Jordan baptizing, does say that John was in the Jordan "water baptizing" or does the text just say baptizing?

I am very interested for the time being in what you have to say about John and his "baptizing". :) We can get into the other things you've mentioned afterward.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Earlier I spoke about Colossians 2;11. About " made without hands" removing sin; We should also read in Colossians, 2;20-22. which speaks of " ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of this world." also " Touch not, taste not: handle not; Which all perish with the using"

Now if one can explain water which we touch, and baptism, which is rudiments of this world, is some how not connected to these verses? Then this clearly shows that these things do not save. and " perish with the using" as written. I would be interested in hearing another interpretation of spirit if available of these verses.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless Christians in Forum, and all those who use it.

[Schroeder]

[size=2]

The text doesn't have to mention water - in fact, it would be more appropriate to demand that where the word "baptism" is used, to denote a baptism other than that in water, an additional word to differentiate is necessary.

For example, when John was in the Jordan baptizing, does say that John was in the Jordan "water baptizing" or does the text just say baptizing?

I am very interested for the time being in what you have to say about John and his "baptizing". :) We can get into the other things you've mentioned afterward. If it means water baptism automatically it would NOT need aditional words to say it is of water. like JTB baptism I baptise with water buthe will... or what keeps these from WATER, and he told them to be baptized. JTB time there was no spirit baptism so why would it. notice as i said he does mention he baptized with water, not needed if all already new baptism meant with water. The context around it makes it with water and he later says so. and clearly differentiates his with water to Christ with the Spirit.

[LivingWordUnity]

John, chapter 3
5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. 23 John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,

Acts, chapter 8
36 As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?"

1 Peter 3:20-21
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Matthew, chapter 28
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,


Ezekiel 36
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

26 I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts.

27 I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.

[Schroeder]

John, chapter 3
5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. 23 John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,

Acts, chapter 8
36 As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?"

1 Peter 3:20-21
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Matthew, chapter 28
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,


Ezekiel 36
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

26 I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts.

27 I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. if your promoting water baptism these dont do it well. If you do a easy look at the rest of the passages or scripture your see what they are speaking of. Jn 3:5 not about water baptism 22-23 obviouse because it SAYS SO acts 8 obviouse because it says so. BUT it was after he was saved if you read rom 10:8-10. 1 Peter 3:20-23 NOT water if you would get the illustration or analogy right. the water represents the flood which was of GOD. The baptism NOW is of the SPirit. this is what covers our sins and gives us a new birth. It says saved through water not BY. as we are now saved through grace or through Christ. ezekial is not about wate rbaptism. either.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

If I am direct upon an Issue, I mean no offense and pray that no one is offended.

On the subject of John the baptists and baptising in Jordan.

It was well versed and spoken that John was baptising with water, And repeating us water baptism for his baptism, was not needed.

but John the baptist, spoke about his baptism of water, and about JEsus the Messiah who would come, having a different baptism, and "shall baptise the world in Blood and Fire". And making a clear distinction between his water baptism of this earth and Jesus baptism of Blood and fire.

Just wanted to Add, that John differentiated between water baptism, and Jesus baptism.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:
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[Albion]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

If I am direct upon an Issue, I mean no offense and pray that no one is offended.

On the subject of John the baptists and baptising in Jordan.

It was well versed and spoken that John was baptising with water, And repeating us water baptism for his baptism, was not needed.

but John the baptist, spoke about his baptism of water, and about JEsus the Messiah who would come, having a different baptism, and "shall baptise the world is Blood and Fire". And making a clear distinction between his water baptism of this earth and Jesus baptism of Blood and fire.

Just wanted to Add, that John differentiated between water baptism, and Jesus baptism.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:
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Thinking logically, we could come to that conclusion. But then we are faced with the New Testament in which we find baptisms for which water is seen as required.

Therefore, we have the Word of God that although baptism has many levels of meaning, sacramental baptism requires water. There are many collateral questions, such as it is essential to salvation, when can it be received, whether it is abstolutely tied to salvation, and what it accomplishes in the candidate. But as to using water, yes.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Thinking logically, we could come to that conclusion. But then we are faced with the New Testament in which we find baptisms for which water is seen as required.

Therefore, we have the Word of God that although baptism has many levels of meaning, sacramental baptism requires water. There are many collateral questions, such as it is essential to salvation, when can it be received, whether it is abstolutely tied to salvation, and what it accomplishes in the candidate. But as to using water, yes.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Albion;

Dear Brother in Christ:

If I may be direct, saying with respect:

those who believe or say, Water baptism, or " water is required".

those who do believe and say this do not comprehend or discern in spirit : KJV. Colossians. 2:10-3:1.

As taste not, touch not, Handle not; ordinances of this world, perish with the using. Now if any can show, water baptism, is not: touch not, or handle not, or rudiments of this world and ordinances. I am Open to hear.

But true baptism, and forgiveness of sins, is " made without hands". which baptism of water is an rudiment and ordinance of this world.

For those who discern in Scriptures with Gods spirit, Colossians 2;10- 3: 1. is definitive that, spiritual baptism is what saves, which is " made without hands".

I do not object or reject Water baptism, but its value; " perishes with the using". or it has not lasting value.

I Pray my words do not offend, God bless all christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Albion]

I do not object or reject Water baptism, but its value; " perishes with the using". or it has not lasting value.

With a topic like this one, it is important to choose every word with care, since there are so many ins and outs we are dealing with. What I was responding to was the idea that Jesus' baptism / Christian baptism is one that is without water, unlike John's. I was not responding to the actual question that the title of the thread asks (Is it necessary?), but to this other point that had gotten into the thread.

No, sacramental baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation, but that is a far cry from saying that being baptised is not worth doing. It is what the New Testament calls us to do, like it or not. And as for the "spiritual" baptism idea, that is what sacramental baptism is all about, just as is the Lord's Supper. The mere physical elements in these sacraments or ordinances do nothing but convey a spiritual meaning and benefit. There's nothing in them apart from the spiritual meaning and benefit.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:

I was speaking unto the words used. Such as " required"

Now water baptism, is preferred or A sign of ones belief, as in a symbol to others as to ones belief, but a requirement of some value. No.

any thing of this world of taste or touch, or handle, has no effect as to forgiveness or sin removal.

Only the Circumcism of ones Heart, a circumcism, made without Hands, can remove sins, which represents our dying and cross with Jesus on the Cross, can save and remove sin.

All trappings and and ordinances of the Church and societies can be used for edification of the Church: But as for an eternal or everlasting value unto ones salvation? No.

As Colossians 2;22. these things perish with the using.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:
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[Albion]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:

I was speaking unto the words used. Such as " required"

Right. And I echo the belief of most Christians who value sacramental baptism that it is not required in every case for salvation. But what I was responding to was this: "Just wanted to Add, that John differentiated between water baptism, and Jesus baptism."

There we have a denial not just of the absolute necessity in all cases of sacramental baptism but of baptism itself when using water in the fashion that the New Testament indicates. There's a difference between John's baptism and Christian baptism, that's so, but the difference is not in whether water is used or not.

any thing of this world of taste or touch, or handle, has no effect as to forgiveness or sin removal.

...and I said that. You can pour water on a person all day and it will not be baptism. But the converse is equally true--if you do baptise, you use water.

Only the Circumcism of ones Heart, a circumcism, made without Hands, can remove sins,

Which STILL does not mean that sacramental baptism, with water, as the churches have always administered it, is not right to do.

All trappings and and ordinances of the Church and societies can be used for edification of the Church: But as for an eternal or everlasting value unto ones salvation?

Well, there I seem to disagree. To say that nothing the church does relates to our salvation in any way doesn't find support from me.

But I do agree that every man must have a conversion, the rest of what the church does aside. This does not mean that all that the church does, administering the sacraments included, is vain and useless IMO.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:

Dear Albion:

Dear brother in Christ: I would like first to thank you, for your interest and desire in wrestling with the spirit, and seeking into Gods hidden truths; which are reserved for the faithful, by God.

My interpretation that nothing of the rudiments of this world has effect as to salvation. is from Colossians 2;20 - 3;3. That would be KJV.

Now for some KJV, is difficult to understand. But if you can or do interpret these verses differently, I will respectfully be open, to hear your Interpretation.:)

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:


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[Albion]

My interpretation that nothing of the rudiments of this world has effect as to salvation. is from Colossians 2;20 - 3;3.

But Colossians there isn't speaking of baptism at all, just that we are not to be conformed to the world, which is something every Christian knows.

[Spiritofprophecy]

But Colossians there isn't speaking of baptism at all, just that we are not to be conformed to the world, which is something every Christian knows.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Albion;

In a way I agree as far as Rudiments of this world as to Spiritual baptism.

I Question if you are reading these verses.

"Circumcism made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of flesh". Col 2:11. Which is directly speaking to " Spiritual Baptism". and then col 2;20-21. " ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world"... " Subject to Ordinances"... " Touch not: taste Not: handle not". Which is directly addressing Baptism of Water.

Forgive me my friend: but either you comprehend not these verses, or refuse to do so.

On This subject of Water baptism, and spiritual baptism, being directly addressed in colossians 2;10-3;1.

My friend if you are not willing or capable to Interpret and or address these verses as fact, I have not desire or the will to discuss this subject further. As I said earlier, these verses directly address Water and spiritual baptism: and if one is not able or willing to address these verses, then Neither is he open to discuss in this subject without predisposition.

I am more than willing to hear your interpretation of these verses in Colossians KJV. But to say colossians 2;20-21, doesn't address water baptism, when verses us terms like," rudiments of this world, and Ordinances,and taste not, touch not, Handle not." To me this is a discernment shortfall.

forgive me if I am wrong, but is not water baptism, Sprinkle sprinkle, dunk dunk?. And to me that is surely " rudiments and ordinances, and touch not , handle not. of this world. Which perish with the using.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Albion]

In a way I agree as far as Rudiments of this world as to Spiritual baptism.

I Question if you are reading these verses.

"Circumcism made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of flesh". Col 2:11. Which is directly speaking to " Spiritual Baptism". and then col 2;20-21. " ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world"... " Subject to Ordinances"... " Touch not: taste Not: handle not". Which is directly addressing Baptism of Water.

Forgive me my friend: but either you comprehend not these verses, or refuse to do so.

What I say in response is that I do understand them, but in so doing, I know that it is not an either-or proposition as you are trying to make it out. Sacramental baptism is not opposed to all that those kinds of verses teach us. There is no refutation of the one idea because there is the other one expressed also. We do need to overcome the world. We are not saved by rituals. We are not saved by going along with the world or engaging in the thinking that non-believers favor. BUT, all that is a moral lesson and has nothing really to do with baptism. You want all these verses to be speaking to something that negates baptism, but that can't be correct or else the same Bible that provides the message you are leaning on wouldn't also tell us repeatedly about being baptised in the traditional way.

On This subject of Water baptism, and spiritual baptism, being directly addressed in colossians 2;10-3;1.

My friend if you are not willing or capable to Interpret and or address these verses as fact, I have not desire or the will to discuss this subject further.

OK. If you are determined that you alone can be correct, and almost all the Christians who ever lived just couldn't read and understand the same verses you are reading, I will cease to explain and justify the Christian Church's POV on this matter. I certainly don't like to badger people if they aren't up for a good give and take discussion.

forgive me if I am wrong, but is not water baptism, Sprinkle sprinkle, dunk dunk?

No. Water is used, yes, but that is not baptism.

And to me that is surely " rudiments and ordinances, and touch not , handle not. of this world. Which perish with the using.

Where'd you get the notion that what Jesus has ordained is nothing more than things "of this world?" The actual advice given in scripture is to be IN the world although not OF it. You don't seem to be able discern the difference.

[Spiritofprophecy]

What I say in response is that I do understand them, but in so doing, I know that it is not an either-or proposition as you are trying to make it out. Sacramental baptism is not opposed to all that those kinds of verses teach us. There is no refutation of the one idea because there is the other one expressed also. We do need to overcome the world. We are not saved by rituals. We are not saved by going along with the world or engaging in the thinking that non-believers favor. BUT, all that is a moral lesson and has nothing really to do with baptism. You want all these verses to be speaking to something that negates baptism, but that can't be correct or else the same Bible that provides the message you are leaning on wouldn't also tell us repeatedly about being baptised in the traditional way.



OK. If you are determined that you alone can be correct, and almost all the Christians who ever lived just couldn't read and understand the same verses you are reading, I will cease to explain and justify the Christian Church's POV on this matter. I certainly don't like to badger people if they aren't up for a good give and take discussion.



No. Water is used, yes, but that is not baptism.



Where'd you get the notion that what Jesus has ordained is nothing more than things "of this world?" The actual advice given in scripture is to be IN the world although not OF it. You don't seem to be able discern the difference.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Albion.

Now to the first Point. You Openly claim and acknowledge, you dont understand these passages and scriptures. Which I claim I do though the spirit, where all true wisdom Comes of scriptures. But then you do the Opposite of the " parable of fruit tree" which I guess you discern this not either. which is to say, I quote.

" You want all these verses to be speaking to something that negates Baptism" I assume you mean " water baptism" Now you did not Judge my fruits or words or interpretation or even discern the word yourself. You went right for me, and judged me, and my desires for Scriptures, Claiming I interpret out of " desire".

Ha ha ha. Now that is funny. for if I had a choice, I would Love Water baptism, to be true, and remove sin, as if magic sprinkles on my sin. If that were true. I then could sin and do all the will of my flesh, and vanities thereof, as " the old man". as Paul so teaches. And then get sprinkled with Holy water ever week or so. If I had a choice, for salvation, this would be the easy choice, the choice of mans flesh, and vanity thereof and placation of flesh, I and all men would choose this in vanity.

Now your words. " baptized in the traditional way" I have no Idea what you mean by this, I suppose you refer to Catholic tradition, which again I point to it being, part of the " pollution of Gods inheritance" which is "wild Grapes", "grafted vines", which follow pagan concepts, not aligned in solid jewish traditions established and followed by Jesus and disciples.

Now if I ever said, which you said I said "If you are determined that you alone can be correct". Are you trying to Insult me?Never did I say that.

I know not what " Christian church POV" what POV relates too.

How can you explain " Christian Church POV"as you claim. and also claim no personal discernment of scripts or understanding, and yet claim authority to teach others? And then say, you are not a follower.

Now we agree, that you are " badgering others". and as to what you Like,as to you doing this: but we have established that your foundation for all things, including your faith, is based in what " you like". Not what you Know, or Understand.

Now if you seek to convince yourself, that I am not up for a " Good give and take". since I am the only one taking and giving, I shall not quibble, if you need to deceive yourself, that I am not up for a truly spiritual scriptural discourse in Interpretation. You may deceive yourself, if that makes your flesh and false vanity rooted doctrines happy.

But do not deceive yourself, that I do not discern and speak without authority of spirit on the truth of these things. As we Know your not able to judge unto.

I only ask you to consider my words, For its Only my Job to speak these truths unto you. I did what is required by God. If you refuse to even hear, then thats on your head. But you have been told, and given scriptural verse references.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

[Albion]

Now to the first Point. You Openly claim and acknowledge, you dont understand these passages and scriptures.

I do not claim that.

Which I claim I do though the spirit

You do claim that. We agree there.

I, on the other hand, make my claims based upon the Bible instead.

which is to say, I quote.

You may quote if you wish, but that doesn't make your interpretations correct, even if you add that you got it from the Holy Spirit.

" You want all these verses to be speaking to something that negates Baptism" I assume you mean " water baptism"

Of course.

Now you did not Judge my fruits or words or interpretation or even discern the word yourself.

I do not need to judge your "fruits" to know that you misread scripture. It is obvious that you did and I explained why.

You went right for me, and judged me, and my desires for Scriptures, Claiming I interpret out of " desire".

Let's be serious. I said that you were wrong in your interpretation, that's all.

if I had a choice, I would Love Water baptism, to be true, and remove sin, as if magic sprinkles on my sin. If that were true. I then could sin and do all the will of my flesh, and vanities thereof, as " the old man". as Paul so teaches.

That certainly is a non-sequitur, and Christians do not teach anything like that. What you wrote is wrong on several counts.

And then get sprinkled with Holy water ever week or so.

Excuse me. I thought I was speaking with someone who had at least a passing knowledge of Christian practice. Do you have any particular education in what Christians do?

To say that you could get sprinkled with Holy Water every week or so is bizarre since Holy Water is not baptismal water, and you can't be sacrmentally baptised more than once. Even if you could, which you cannot, it is not a form of confession! I don't think you know enough about it to be criticising the Christian practice of baptism.

If I had a choice, for salvation, this would be the easy choice, the choice of mans flesh, and vanity thereof and placation of flesh, I and all men would choose this in vanity.

I suppose, but we were speaking of baptism, not this weird description of something that you think has some resemblance to baptism. Take it from me, it doesn't.

Now your words. " baptized in the traditional way" I have no Idea what you mean by this,

Yes, I'm quickly getting the idea that you have almost no knowledge of the things of Christianity. That being so, I have no idea how to proceed except to point out that "water baptism" is the command of God as revealed in the Bible, and that is why we do it. If you would like to learn more of Christianity, pose some questions for me about baptism and then we might be able to work together to get you up to speed on what you are talking against.

I suppose you refer to Catholic tradition

No, I was speaking of sacramental baptism using water which almost EVERY Christian body since the time of Christ has engaged in -- that which you have said is all wrong to do.

I know not what " Christian church POV" what POV relates too.

Another example of attacking what you don't know. By "Christian church POV" I mean the belief and practice as is characteristic of the Christian churches.'

How can you explain " Christian Church POV"as you claim. and also claim no personal discernment of scripts or understanding, and yet claim authority to teach others? And then say, you are not a follower.

I am, unlike yourself, knowledgable about Christian practice. I do not, therefore, misrepresent it. And when someone does do that, I set him straight. There's really no reason for you to be hostile to being helped.

When it comes to what is proper to do, I go by the Bible. In the case of water baptism, the Bible commands it. Now, if almost every Christian church that ever existed practices water baptism, don't say that I believe what I do just because they practice it. I get it from the Bible and THEY get it from the Bible.

Now we agree, that you are " badgering others".

No, we don't agree. I said that I would NOT badger others. What kind of a game do you think you are playing to come back and say that I agree that I DO such a thing when I said I am against doing that?

[quote]Now if you seek to convince yourself, that I am not up for a " Good give and take".

Well, I have spent quite a lot of time dealing here with your hurt feelings, accusations, inability to understand the English language, and all these trivial asides. What I would like you to do is support or prove your allegations.

It was you, after all, who made them, not I. I merely pointed out why they don't make sense or are terrible ill-informed as with your weird notions about baptism. Honestly, I have never heard anyone, not even a non-Christian, describe baptism so incorrectly.

Maybe we should end it here, since you don't have enough ability to discuss the sacrament. However, I will teach you, if you want, and that would do you a world of good, I believe. Let me know.