Protestants--Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[ShetlandRose]

I was reading from the Memoirs of Charles G. Finney a testimony of what he called "a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost." He described in detail quite an overwhelming sensory and emotional experience. This passage was contained in a book on Holiness from a Wesleyan publishing company. The book explained this was "Entire Sanctification" or "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" (a second work of grace) that comes later than the "Initial Sanctification" which occurs at conversion (the first work of grace).

So...wouldn't this be the same "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" that Pentecostals or Charasmatics seek? There was no mention of "tongues" in the Wesleyan book, however, except as a "movement."

I was under the impression from the churches I have attended that Protestant churches (except Pentecostals) only believe in one "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," which takes place at conversion.

I would be interested in Protestant and other Christian (including Messianic) opinions please.

ShetlandRose :angel:

[ChrisB]

I was under the impression from the churches I have attended that Protestant churches (except Pentecostals) only believe in one "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," which takes place at conversion.

I would be interested in Protestant and other Christian (including Messianic) opinions please.

It seems that "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" can be a recurring and ongoing process even in Evangelical circles. See this account of the life of Evan Roberts (and others) and his influence on the 1904 Welsh Revival

http://www.churchmodel.org.uk/Back04.pdf

I do not believe that Baptism of the Holy Spirit inevitably means speaking in tongues, having visions or prophesying. Each of us is given different gifts and no one gift is more "important" than any other.

1 Corinthians 12

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12
8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues

1 Corinthians 12
28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Therefore even less "spectacular" gifts such as administration are from the Holy Spirit and should not be denigrated because they don't exhibit the same fireworks as other gifts :pray:

[BBAS 64]

I was reading from the Memoirs of Charles G. Finney a testimony of what he called "a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost." He described in detail quite an overwhelming sensory and emotional experience. This passage was contained in a book on Holiness from a Wesleyan publishing company. The book explained this was "Entire Sanctification" or "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" (a second work of grace) that comes later than the "Initial Sanctification" which occurs at conversion (the first work of grace).

So...wouldn't this be the same "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" that Pentecostals or Charasmatics seek? There was no mention of "tongues" in the Wesleyan book, however, except as a "movement."

I was under the impression from the churches I have attended that Protestant churches (except Pentecostals) only believe in one "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," which takes place at conversion.

I would be interested in Protestant and other Christian (including Messianic) opinions please.

ShetlandRose :angel:
Good Day, ShetlandRose

I would be very carefull on what you read from Mr. Finney, his theology IMO is not very good as it compares with Scripture. I have not read the quote of which you speak but I can see how his view of Baptism may be out of line with main stream Christian view as you have clearly stated in your OP.

Peace to u,

BBAS

[ByzantineDixie]

So...wouldn't this be the same "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" that Pentecostals or Charasmatics seek? There was no mention of "tongues" in the Wesleyan book, however, except as a "movement."

I was under the impression from the churches I have attended that Protestant churches (except Pentecostals) only believe in one "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," which takes place at conversion.

I would be interested in Protestant and other Christian (including Messianic) opinions please.

ShetlandRose :angel:

I was hoping there were be more discussion here. Let me offer my opinion...for what it is worth.

The first and foremost issue is clarifying what is meant by "one Baptism". Protestants do believe in one Baptism that (depending on which protestant group you are talking to) either brings about faith and/or is done in response to one having received faith. This is the one Baptism we proclaim and marks us as justified by Christ, saved, etc.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is quite another thing and one which is more associated with the sanctification process. I believe there is a minority of charismatics that say you must also have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to be saved but that is not the general consensus. Most charismatics recognize the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a "growth" in the faith but not a requirement for salvation. They generally say that evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit must be speaking in tongues.

I don't know what most protestants in general say about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the requirement of speaking in tongues as evidence. I was hoping to learn more here in this thread. Frankly...most protestants I have known either do not know about it or think the whole Baptism of the Holy Spirit thing as described by charismatics is bogus. The majority opinion in my own synod is one of none acceptance (I would link to the site but I am at work on my lunch hour and religious sites and pornography sites are filtered out...go figure. Haven't figured out why I can get on this site! :) ) However...there is a minority group in my synod who would argue otherwise.

I personally believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit because I have experienced it. I didn't know for two years after what had happened until I heard a charismatic teach on the subject. I have since done lots of different reading on the matter and even found a book on Speaking in Tongues written by a Lutheran Pastor!

And since you asked for opinion, I personally do not believe in the requirement of speaking in tongues as evidence (referencing the scriptures which say not all people have the same gifts) but I also think there is a whole lot of pressure in mainstream protestant religions to NOT speak in tongues...to count that as biblical but not something "we" do. So we quench it. I can't tell you how many times I have been in group prayer when someone prays something and my spirit has an urge to make an audible "Amen", "Yes Father", "Forgive us, Jesus" but I keep silent because that is not what we do at my church. It is this kind of inhibition that I also think keeps some who are able to speak in tongues silent.

I would love to hear more views......

In His Grace

Rose

[Perceivence]

Isn't the baptism at conversion the baptism into the Body of Christ? The saving baptism?

I think that what we call "Holy Spirit Baptism" is displayed separate from "Baptism into the Body of Christ" in some accounts in the New Testament.

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

I have but a very limited understanding of the scriptures and I'm not speaking for Charismatics as a whole: I don't know what the "official" stance of any Charismtatic Church is on this.

[ShetlandRose]

I'm going to back up a bit here and copy the testimony of Charles Finney from the book that I mentioned in post #1 above:

The Testimony of Charles Grandison Finney

"As I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love; for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings.

"No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, 'I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me.' I said, 'Lord, I cannot bear any more;' yet I had no fear of death....

"When I awoke in the morning...instantly the baptism that I had received in the night before returned upon me in the same manner. I arose upon my knees in bed and wept aloud with joy, and remained for some time too much overwhelmed with the baptism of the Spirit to do anything but pour out my soul to God."

~ Charles G. Finney, Memoirs of Rev. Charles G. Finney (New York: Fleming H. Revell, Co., 1876) pp. 20-23. The book this passage is contained in is "Holiness for Ordinary People" by Keith Drury, Wesleyan Publishing House, Indianapolis, Indiana, 1994.

ShetlandRose :angel:

(P.S. I found out from Encarta Encyclopedia that discoveries in electricity went back much farther than I imagined, so electrical current was known in the 1800's.)

[ChrisB]

There is an interesting article on the evangelical experience of Baptism of the Holy Spirit here http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/138/54.0.html

It relates the experiences of D L Moody, Charles Finney, Johnathan Edwards and Cotton Mather. Their experiences seem to have related more to an infilling of joy and power rather than speaking in tongues. This joy and power they subsequently used in their evangelistic work and I would I suggest that this indicates that the evangelical position would be that such baptism should be used for God's glory and not as a mere exhibition of "spiritual pyrothechnics".

[ShetlandRose]

ALL very interesting! Thank you. My question is not exactly specifically about "tongues." What I would like to read from more Christians is if they feel there is a second Baptism in the Holy Spirit in addition to the conversion experience/filling that a believer should want or should expect? And should they ask God for it? (I am familiar with Charismatic views, which would be yes.) I remember reading in one of Catherine Marshall's books that her husband Rev. Peter Marshall (well-known Presbyterian pastor) had such an experience.

ShetlandRose :angel:

[HisJavajunkie]

I'm going to back up a bit here and copy the testimony of Charles Finney from the book that I mentioned in post #1 above:

The Testimony of Charles Grandison Finney

"As I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love; for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings.

"No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, 'I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me.' I said, 'Lord, I cannot bear any more;' yet I had no fear of death....

"When I awoke in the morning...instantly the baptism that I had received in the night before returned upon me in the same manner. I arose upon my knees in bed and wept aloud with joy, and remained for some time too much overwhelmed with the baptism of the Spirit to do anything but pour out my soul to God."

~ Charles G. Finney, Memoirs of Rev. Charles G. Finney (New York: Fleming H. Revell, Co., 1876) pp. 20-23. The book this passage is contained in is "Holiness for Ordinary People" by Keith Drury, Wesleyan Publishing House, Indianapolis, Indiana, 1994.

ShetlandRose :angel:

(P.S. I found out from Encarta Encyclopedia that discoveries in electricity went back much farther than I imagined, so electrical current was known in the 1800's.)
Shetland I wand to thank you for quoting Charles Finney. It helps us to understand where they/he are coming from. Personally, I don't believe in baptism by the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit is a Helper and given to those who believe.

John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper that He may be with you forever."

John 14:26 " But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

The importance thing is to look at what the Bible says. But I do want to make sure that I am staying on topic. thank you

Javajunkie&Him